FBI Unlearns Gun & Ammo History … 9mm Vs 45 ~ VIDEO

9mm Versus The 45ACP
FBI Unlearns Gun & Ammo History … 9mm Vs 45
Don McDougall
Don McDougall

USA – -(Ammoland.com)- A while back (2014) the FBI published a long diatribe defending their decision to go to the 9mm round as their choice for their agents. They plan on going forward with that now.

For some of their reason, the FBI is going against history and the FBI’s own experience. With that in mind, I invite your comments. Mine is at the end of the article. The FBI Reasoning document is embedded below.

History

The Miami Shootout: Eight FBI agents cornered two serial bank robbers, in the shootout only one agent came out unscathed. The FBI wanted more “Stopping Power” that they got from their 9mm and .38 special firearms. The FBI went to the 10mm, then to a “light 10mm” then to the S&W .40.

Now we’re back to the 9mm as their primary choice. Remember the .38 special can penetrate 15 inches of ballistic jell. The same criteria used for selecting the 9mm today. Additionally, without the limitation on the shape of the round required to allow assured feeding, the .38 special is probably a better stopper than the 9mm.

If you read the FBI’s reasons endorsing the 9mm, there are a handful of things that stand out.

  1. They wanted a lighter round to avoid wear on their firearms. (Budget)
  2. 70-80% of their shots miss (Poor training)
  3. They wanted a high capacity magazine so that they could shoot enough rounds to maybe get one or two hits. (See #2)

Politics

The fact is this all sounds a lot more like politics, cheaper ammunition, lobbyists selling new guns and the same tired old bureaucracy driven decision process that you see throughout history. From the Civil war holding back repeaters and cartridged rifles because the troops might “shoot too fast” and use up the ammunition to the Philippines in 1902, to today.

Oh.. the Philippines, when the .38 long colt failed to perform.

From Wikipedia:

The .38 long Colt’s relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine–American War of 1899–1902. A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Col. Louis A. LaGarde:

Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt’s revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.

Col. LaGarde noted Caspi’s wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went though the right hand and exited through the forearm.[8]

As an emergency response to the round’s unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry M1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, and issued from reserve stocks.

As a result of numerous instances of the new .38 service pistols being ineffective the US Army was forced to hastily re-issue mothballed Single Action Amy .45 Colts.
As a result of numerous instances of the new .38 service pistols being ineffective the US Army was forced to hastily re-issue mothballed Single Action Amy .45 Colts. IMG : historicalfirearms.info

So if shot placement is all that matters and stopping power is a myth what happened with the .38 long colt?

Can’t you hear the ghostly whispers from 1901? We can ship 3 .38 LC cartridges for the same cost as 2 .45 LC. Look at the savings in practicing! Stopping power is a myth! Pistols are obsolete anyway. All the same old tired arguments that get brave men killed.

In my opinion, they should spend the money on practice instead of new guns. (Missing a man size target at 15 feet 8 out of 10 times is a disaster.) In firearm selection, they should choose firearms that fit the shooters hands, and they select the largest caliber you can control. A .380 in the head is better than a 10mm miss. With a miss ratio of around 80%, you run the risk of a LOT of collateral damage.

One last note, LEARN from history; Mark Twain said history doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Look again at Miami and The Moro rebellion. Remember why the 1911 is in .45 and not 9mm Lugar. Maybe one size does not fit all? Remember the North Hollywood shoot out.

Look to the past and learn from went wrong. Look the US military issued 1911,s revolvers and Colt 1903’s in WWII. Concealability and Reliability often out weighted lethality.

Setting yourself up for a repeat of the Miami Shootout is not progress.

Do NOT let the brave agents who stood tall in Miami, and the men who gave up their lives to poor “management decision” in all the wars we’ve fought have died for nothing. Learn from OUR mistakes.

One last comment, EXPERIENCE shows us that the size of the grips on the GLOCK, is to large and boxy for women and many men. The increase in misses from 40% to 80% over the past 4 decades is due in large part to the width of the grip on the hi-capacity “wonder 9s”. Using lighter loads won’t stop the problem of gun ergonomics.


Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners


About Don McDougall:

Don McDougall is an NRA instructor and member of the Los Padres “Friends of the NRA” committee. If he’s not at the range you will find him setting the record straight with on gun issues and gun safety on AmmoLand Shooting Sports News.

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L&N nut
L&N nut
4 years ago

9mm seems like a good choice for an agency full of lawyers, accountants and women who don’t care about firearms and who don’t want to spend time and money on training. HRT and others who need it are authorized to use something more effective.

JAMES
JAMES
4 years ago

WELL I USE A M-57 7.62X25. AND IT WILL STOP THE BUTTHOLE. ALSO USE IT IN NAM. I HAVE 86 GR ROUNDS FOR IT IN AP. ALSO USE DRT ROUNDS IN MY 9MM AND 380. THE M-57 CARRY 9 ROUNDS IN MAG AND ONE IN CHAMBER FOR A TOTAL OF 10 ROUNDS. PLUS I HAVE 6 MAG.

TAM
TAM
4 years ago

When you read the detailed history of the Miami shoot out, it’s abundantly clear that diameter of the projectiles was not the problem. Not hitting anything for most of the shoot out was. During most of the incident dozens of rounds were fired and one bad guy was hit in the arm. So much went wrong, from a training standpoint, that it seems pointless to list it all here. When you look at statistics on people killed by handguns in the US in general, there does seem to a significant difference below the .380 but above that not so much.… Read more »

Kim
Kim
4 years ago

Need more in the training budget. Also the people who do the budget do not want to hear this but do departments need to have more than one official service pistol and caliber? I am 6,1 250lbs but short little fingers some double stacked pistols I do not shoot well and can not reached all the controls.

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago

Don, I work for and do ballistic shoots for a major ammo maker. I’m a retired LE and worked in a firearms lab part of my career and have seen a good number of gunshot victims, both good guys and bad guys, laying on slabs. I’ve seen the terminal effects of just about every popular caliber and bullet type. The facts are that bullet placement is still the most critical element of any shooting and a bad shot, even with a large caliber, is not going to de-animate a determined individual. Handguns, in any caliber are not the best at… Read more »

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  M.A. Hall

As a source within modern bullet manufacturing, how different would you say bullets are now vs 30+ years ago? Don seems unclear on any improvements made over the three decade period since the Miami shootout.

(Thanks for chiming in with an actual expert opinion. Many of the opinions here seems to be based on whiskey and wives tales.)

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  M.A. Hall

This argument has been dragging on for decades, with no sign of a resolution, as this thread proves. It also seems to assume that there are no other choices but the 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP. Yet, I can sit here and tick off several cartridges, such as .38 Super, .22 TCM, .357 SIG, .400 Cor Bon, to name a few, that have superior ballistics with lower or similar recoil. On paper, that is. An opinion from someone with real world experience on how some of these cartridges stack up against the two old war horses would be most welcome.

dobervol
dobervol
4 years ago

I’m not much younger than the author, but this has to be one of the most biased, old-fart opinions I’ve ever seen. The FBI isn’t limited to FMJ projectiles, and as such, using anecdotal evidence from even the year 2000, let alone the 1980s, and 100 years ago no less, to make your case, is nothing more than dropping the same old red herrings. If you aren’t comparing/contrasting the most modern, expanding 9 with the most modern, expanding .45, it’s irrelevant. I have a nice collection of premium 1911s (in fact, I have a lot more .45 caliber firearms than… Read more »

Paul
Paul
4 years ago

I carry a 1911 and my wife prefers an LC9. They both work very well because we are each comfortable with what we have. Both are loaded with JHP rounds so that we hope that the bullet won’t overpenetrate. No matter what you carry it needs to fit your comfort level and be able to penetrate the target.

R S Morgan
R S Morgan
4 years ago

In terms of “ending the fight,” in something like 95% to 98% of civilian defense uses of a firearm the ballistics of the cartridge have nothing to do with the outcome. Most people most of the time simply don’t want to be shot and will be intimidated either by the simple threat of the gun, the discharge of a round or by the psychological effects of any gunshot wound. Having a gun, any gun, and hitting the target is far more important than the caliber wars. Beyond that, a pistol is simply a tool for making a hole. Yes some… Read more »

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago
Reply to  R S Morgan

Paul, I have had a lot of conversations with PD’s that are overly concerned with over penetration. My only comment is why are they more concerned over the very small percentage of bullets that strike the target and may over penetrate, than they are with the very large percentage of the bullets that miss their intended target completely???

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago
Reply to  R S Morgan

Mr. Morgan, you are absolutely right on. Ball ammo “crushes” a very small area of tissue and leaves a very small diameter wound channel. In fact Pathologist have a hard time determining a caliber made by ball ammo if a bullet is not recovered. I have seen more than one “victim” on a slab that was put there by a 148 grain wadcutter. They penetrate well, create a great permanent wound channel and seem to be quite effective.

Jack
Jack
4 years ago

Seems the entire story here including the 1900 war was around the use of ball ammo. Today’s modern 9mm jhp bullet has advanced since the Miami shootout so much it is almost like comparing apples to oranges in the overall use and bullet a stats of today’s technology jhp that the FBI and others are or have gone to.

Patrick D. Sperry
Patrick D. Sperry
4 years ago

Gads, will this debate never end..? First, I believe that proper training, including mindset, is the real key. People, including myself, based upon family history and the Moro uprising? These people were so stoned on Opium that they didn’t react as one might think! They just kept on coming at you. My son reported that they faced a lot of that in Afghanistan also. Now, after all of that? I am a retired Paramedic, and saw probably more than my fair share of GSW’s. Placement is key for sure, and like so many others have pointed out proper training using… Read more »

bama88
bama88
4 years ago

Seems to me the FBI got it right the first time. 10 mm is clearly the correct answer. If agents fail to qualify they do not carry. They have requirements to enter, become and stay an agent education, height, weight, etc. Fail to make the requirements, no job. I have 7 to 12 year old grandkids ( boys and girls) who shoot 10 mm with no real problems,( they are carefully supervised.. 10 mm. Problem Solved.

Patrick D. Sperry
Patrick D. Sperry
4 years ago
Reply to  bama88

Agreed! Training is the key! That said? I had a Colt Delta Elite years ago when they first came out, and reciol was atrocious to say the least. A year or two later I acquired a Glock 20. The hottest loads that you could get, or load at home were easily handled. I think that is because of the grip angle but there are probably other factors involved as well.

Hartwell
Hartwell
4 years ago

Agreed! And for what it’s worth, I think the author has been misunderstood. He wasn’t so much pulling out the old 9mm v 45 ACP debate, as he was pointing out that – regardless what cartridge is chosen, training is paramount to its deployment being effective, and a handgun is not a one-size-fits-all tool. Different sized hands. Different grip angle. And other factors make some weapons easier to operate than others. And when the parameters are set by beauraucrats rather than armorers or shooters, the end result is all too often disasterous. The FBI has been down this road so… Read more »

Tom Campau
Tom Campau
4 years ago

My favorite pistol owned was a H&K 45 Socom. My life saver is a Browning 9mm High Power that a NVA Officer donated to me in RVN (1967). Dropped a charging water bo north of Khe San 7 rounds in 20’to 4″, 4 to the head did nothing, 1 to the eye made him turn. 2 to the heart dropped him at my feet.. Co. Lt. said “Man you are pretty good with that” I told him “I did’nt have a choice”. Shot placement!.

Bob
Bob
4 years ago

All of you “yahoos” miss the point entirely………I don’t care about “ballistics”, bullet size or weight, inches of penetration in jello, etc, etc………the bottom line is you carry what you are most comfortable with…AND….what you are most likely to hit the target with…..it’s THAT simple…..because a hit from a .22 is 1000% better than a miss from a .44 Magnum. I “survived” Viet Nam and 3 shootouts as a cop…….and trust me on this….when the bullets are flying ALL you want to do is not get shot yourself and hit the bad guy first….AND…anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting… Read more »

DaveW
DaveW
4 years ago
Reply to  Bob

Vietnam and 21+ years of law enforcement… I NEVER wanted to get shot, so my intention was to shoot the bad guy first. I did a LOT of practice in preparation. In a shootout, there is a high miss count due to stress and adrenalin, lack of firearm control, and people who spray a lot of bullets in hope that they will hit something while not getting shot. The wrong size firearm inhibits control which leads to inaccurate shot placement. Doesn’t matter how much practice I do, my hands can not handle double stacks, or a number of revolvers, and… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Bob

, “…until they stop moving…” Truer words were never spoken.

Don't trust the government
Don't trust the government
4 years ago

If all this ‘baloney’ doesn’t convince YOU that the FEDERAL Government is CORRUPT, nothing will. Give each law enforcement officer a ‘gun allowance’ and a monthly ‘practice stipend’ and let them choose their own. When you talk about ‘government’ purchasing your are talking BIG MONEY and CORRUPTION….

praack
praack
4 years ago

sorry nine guys the man has a point, no one is saying to switch to 45, though a 45 might be ok for personal use for police work you want more rounds- but to switch out from the 40? what did that do? a good round, double stack mag – no real value to move away from it if you want to see numbers- you look of rounds expended to the numbers of hits. poor training increases the numbers of rounds you will expend, being full of yourself and not being situational aware will also increase the numbers of rounds,… Read more »

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago
Reply to  praack

Bob, as a yahoo with 40 years of law enforcement, just like you, you know as well as I do that “failure to train” liability is far more important issue than it should be. Commonality in firearms for any agency helps protect them as does ease of training. If thei weren’t true you could have taken your deer rifle to VN instead of using the COMMON issued rifle you had to carry. Being comfortable isn’t the only issue in a defensive firearm. It has to have an accepted level of performance to a standard LE can ‘somewhat agree on.

Kivaari
Kivaari
4 years ago

The 9mm in a Glock is a superior police weapon compared to any .45. Comparing black powder .38 loads to 9mm is silly. Modern 9mm outperforms .38 Colt and modern .38 Special (also a 9mm).
Control with a 9mm is so much better than .45. I can shoot circles around others armed with a G21 or 1911.

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago

Anyone who believes that in reality, in a gunfight, that the hits made with a .45 are more likely to stop the fight than the same hits with a 9mm (or vice versa, that hits with a 9mm are less likely to stop the fight than the same hits with a .45) is ignorant of the last 10 years of ballistic technology and advances in modern bullet design.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  KCshooter

What advances?

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

(^^^ this is the author of the article talking!!! Is he trolling his own article?) See? The author believes 9mm ammo NOW is the same as 9mm was in 1986! Makes the entire article invalid and, to be honest, kinda dumb. “What advances”?!?!? Its been 30 years, gramps, where do you want me to start?? Ask any bullet maker the same question, see if he can help but to laugh at your question. Of course you don’t get it, pops, you’re just a clueless old guy who can’t keep up with the times. What advances?? Seriously???? Tell me about the… Read more »

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago
Reply to  KCshooter

KC, I think the popularity of the 9mm has driven many of the improvements as has the feed back from terminal ballistic researchers like Fackler. Jacket designs that include pre-skived segmented areas allow more reliable expansion. That, combined with new methods of putting or even bonding cores to jackets, prevent core jacket separations, which has traditionally been an issue with old manufacturing methods. Core Jacket separations reduce the mass of the projectile and can greatly reduce penetration. At one time, there were several bullets makers that actually lubricated their jackets/cores to allow for more uniform swagging of the core material… Read more »

ewb
ewb
4 years ago

I believe it is all about money (budget). The 9mm will save them money, as it costs less. For the ammunition, the guns, wear and tear, as well as easier training due to less recoil. The accountants and politics came into play for this. Thus they spent a long time coming up with a long diatribe as to their reasoning and illogical justification.

Hardy Spires
Hardy Spires
4 years ago

Guns have been called machines and tools. When somebody buys a gun it is usually for a specific purpose. It is kind of like adding another wrench to your toolbox. If I can add a wrench that will do several things instead of just one thing I will buy the one that is multipurpose. The 9mm ammo that is available today makes the gun like an adjustable wrench. It can be used for different jobs by buying the different types of ammo available. The many choices that you can buy right off the shelf of most stores makes it a… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Hardy Spires

@Hardy S, You are more right about the gun being a tool than you can imagine. I once saw a private use his M16 as a lever to break the metal bands that secure MRE cases. I almost fainted.

Hardy Spires
Hardy Spires
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

I guess he was more worried about starving to death than not abusing the weapon that was going to be used to keep him from being a KIA. Some folks just don’t have a clue. He sounds like somebody that would throw away nails because the head was on the wrong end.

Edward
Edward
4 years ago

with some of the new ammo out there you have .45acp that can reach 2000 fps with a 78 gr. round

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Edward

, Wow, who makes that?

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

I believe it is made by liberty ammo, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t buy fad rounds myself, so I could be wrong.

Hardy Spires
Hardy Spires
4 years ago
Reply to  KCshooter

Take a look at Lucky Gunner ballistic tables. They show pictures of five rounds shot into gel. I think that a lot of folks are missing the most important part of using a gun for self defense. The choice of ammo is just as important as the choice of the caliber gun. The website is listed as lucky gunner ballistic charts. They really did a great job of testing and showing the results.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Edward

I’ve got a box of it.

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

You have a box of that, but you can’t see any advances in 9mm ammo over a thirty year period?? Do you think you could buy those in 1986??
Are you being deliberately clueless or just messing with me?

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

@DBM, So how did you like them? If they are 2000 feet per second could you reach out a hundred meters? I set up an NRA silhouette course just for fun. I bet that would be fun with a pistol.

PASTORGLOCK
PASTORGLOCK
4 years ago

With the new bullet designs currently on the market the 9mm is an awesome performer. I have Glocks in 9mm and 45. I have 2-1911s a kimber warrior and a Springfield TRP Operator. I shoot competitively and I am proficient with either platform. For mine & my family’s protection I keep a G19 loaded with 127gr +p+.. In all reality it doesn’t matter what they carry if they can’t hit what they’re aiming at. Maybe they should spend more time training then changing caliber & platforms every few years.

J. Riggs
J. Riggs
4 years ago

I’m a former law enforcement officer. I qualified w/a 1911 government model 45 & I carried it,for a while,then switched to polymer glock 21. I already owned a glock 30 (45ACP). Yes the grips on a G21 & G30 are a little big for me but I shoot them just fine. I thought I was lightening my load but the Glocks have more capacity so I probably wasnt,maybe even weighed more,don’t know,never put them on the scale. I also like the 12 gauge shotgun. I know what the 45 can do,I also know what the 12 gauge can do. I… Read more »

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  J. Riggs

Nicely said

Mark Tercsak
Mark Tercsak
4 years ago

.38 Colt and .38 Smith & WESSON Special are two entirely different cartridges, the only thing they share is a common bullet diameter, in fact Colt had two .38 Colt rounds, the .38 short Colt and the round adopted by the U.S. ARMED FORCES, The .38 long Colt, let’s remember there has been a scientific revolution in bullet construction since 1905, lead bullets, and primitive jacketed bullets, who often shed their jackets and key hold, these were not expanding bullets like we have today. SMITH & WESSON also had early .38 caliber cartridge , the .38 SMITH & WESSON, who’s… Read more »

Bg
Bg
4 years ago

9mm sucks, i understand shot placement… but even a .45 isn’t awesome , but it’s better. I don’t know why everyone is on t he 9mm bandwagon . I don’t care, I’ve shot plenty of 9s , never owned one. Never needed one. If I want something 9 millimeters in diameter I have a 357 mag. Disagree or agree, makes no difference . Even my wife won’t carry a 9. Not due to power , but because a 380 has minimal recoil and with ball ammo it’s the same dang thing…go ahead and pretend it’s not….9×19 or 9×18…. is 9… Read more »

JR Bailey
JR Bailey
4 years ago
Reply to  Bg

I don’t know under which rock you’ve been hiding, ballistically speaking, but your entire comment stream happens to be utterly devoid of any connection whatsoever with modern bullet technology, history, and two world wars! I carry 147 grain Federal HST jhp in my side arm, which is an All Steel frame and slide with a 4.75 inch barrel! Ballistic gel test, set up to the FBI standard, Denim and so forth, produce 11-14 inches of penetration, and an expansion diameter of the bullets from .62 inches to .81 inches! Take a deep breath and consider those numbers will you? What… Read more »

Randy Scott
Randy Scott
4 years ago
Reply to  JR Bailey

Very nice outline. Speed and accuracy. I remember when you had a partner and a wheel gun. Now you have a radio and many bullets, it’s an administrative thing, again.

Hardy Spires
Hardy Spires
4 years ago
Reply to  JR Bailey

I agree with you about the main thing that people need to do when choosing a box of ammo. They need to do some research on the caliber of ammo that they are buying. I was of the opinion that the faster and more powerful the bullet the better the results. I did some internet research and found a site that the research and testing had been done for me. It had all the pictures and results in charts that helped me to make some choices on ammo without buying and shooting lots of ammo myself. They fired five shots… Read more »

Tyrese Davis
Tyrese Davis
4 years ago
Reply to  Bg

I’m a 10mm guy. What do you think about that?

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  Bg

How ridiculous. So 9mm is a fad, and for mall ninjas, but your .380 (which is 9×17, dummy, not 9×18 makorov) is enough gun? Same thing?? Boy, you have a lot to learn.
Your entire post is foolish. A rebuttal beyond this is a waste of time. The info is out there, read up a bit before talking any further.

Kivaari
Kivaari
4 years ago
Reply to  Bg

You’re wrong.

Charles
Charles
4 years ago

SIG P320 The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies. Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge. As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program… Read more »

Kivaari
Kivaari
4 years ago
Reply to  Charles

Actually the gun fails the SAAMI test. Using both SAAMI mallet test and muzzle up drop from 42″, the gun fails.

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago

This .45 vs 9mm argument has been dragging on for how many decades now? The FBI’s criteria are obviously political. A heavy longbow will penetrate well over 15″, even against some ballistic vests. Should the FBI issue archery equipment? Or, would it make more sense to start acting like peace officers instead of a military bureaucracy? Police are not soldiers. The need for ammunition commonality to simplify supply chain issues is not important. Their job is to deescalate and investigate. The sidearm is a last resort. Data on self defense shootings demonstrates that the vast majority of incidents involve fewer… Read more »

brian robinson
brian robinson
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

Pam sprayed on bullet of any calb.will penatrait any vest.love my 45 1911 s&

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  brian robinson

What an idiotic thing to say. Absolutely false.
Who believes stuff like that?

Kivaari
Kivaari
4 years ago
Reply to  brian robinson

Simply stupid.

Jim Macklin
Jim Macklin
4 years ago
Reply to  brian robinson

PAM makes cookies come off a sheet. It doesn’t make a bullet defeat a ballistic vest. The strength of flesh and bone is known, the strength of Kevlar is also known. A sewing needle will penetrate Kevlar, a slim dagger will push fibers out of the way. That’s why they make plate carriers,. The Miami Shootout was a failure of FBI tactics that included put a gun on the car seat for rapid use and then having a traffic accident with the gun lost in the car. The FBI needed rifles because they were after a robbery gang that they… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Jim Macklin

M, You are correct about the failure of FBI tactics in the Miami shootout. Part of the cause of the big debate is that the Fat Boy Institute felt the need to do a “study” that absolved them and blamed something else. So the FEEBEEs blamed the 9mm, which can not talk back.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

How, exactly, are ‘political factions’ attempting to turn the police into an ‘internal private army’? Hate to burst your bubble, but the police don’t have the manpower to field a division, much less an army.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

@Clark Kent, My hat is off to you. JD’s four paragraph “communique” is so replete with errors, assumptions, internal contradictions, and mixed issues that I would not touch it with a ten foot pitch fork.

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

No, bill, you don’t get to toss out snide remarks like that without backing them up. That’s what liberals do, and I would think it beneath you. Please, elaborate. By the way, are you the same Wild bill who used to do a vlog on Youtube, coffee mug always in hand? Just wondering.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

You have too many issues: 45 v 9mm; FBI criteria; long bow v ballistic vest; FBI acting like peace officers (which the FBI has never been) vs acting like military bureaucracy. So many assumptions and errors that I have not the energy to address them all. Clark Kent at least addressed one of the erroneous assumptions. Why don’t you answer his question.
For example: what is a military bureaucracy, and how do you think that it (if such a thing exists) is supposed to act? Youtube? No.

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

@Wild Bill: Ok then. I answered Wanna Be Superman before you posted. Military bureaucracy? Well, what do you call a bureaucratic agency that seems to be focused more on the use of force than its original purpose of investigating crimes? Best I could come up with. I apologize for confusing you. The longbow is not an issue; it’s a comparison illustrating the absurdity of the FBI’s simple penetration criteria. There’s a whole lot more to the difficult to define issue of stopping power. Permanent wound channel, hydraulic shock (or lack of), location of hit, mental and physical state of the… Read more »

JR Bailey
JR Bailey
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

I don’t know whether he meant army, or militarized? It is a stone Cold Fact Wild Bill and Clark Kent, that PD’s, S.O.’s, and HP’s, across the country have in fact, been militarized, in both tactics and mindset! Even here in Wyoming, you’ve got PD’s and S.O.’s which actually have Mwraps, and the mindset that they’re actually going to pull people over in those suckers! Tactical SWAT team usages are through the roof everywhere! SWAT teams used to be for real heavy duty situations, but now they’re used for regular everyday stuff! I have friends who are deputy sheriff’s, and… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  JR Bailey

@JR Bailey, OK. It is like you wrote, “In many places, especially big cities, that’s how they (the police) stay alive, because big cities have literally become war zones!” That getting killed thing is so unpleasant, and there are no “do overs”.

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

That’s not remotely close to a valid interpretation.
I understand loyalty but blind loyalty is foolhardy.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@KC, I just meant that police and sheriffs adopt tactics developed by the military because those tactics work. I think what JR Bailey said about “… especially big cities, that’s how they stay alive, because big cities have literally become war zones!” could not be more true. Loyalty was not on my mind.

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

Somebody hasn’t been paying attention over the last ten years. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (https://www.bjs.gov), in 2013 there were roughly 189,000 sworn sheriff’s deputies across the country, and around 500,000 sworn LEO’s, trending toward a yearly increase of some 25%. That doesn’t take into account all the various and mostly redundant alphabet agencies at the Federal level. Did you know that the Department of Education has SWAT teams? Nor does it address all of the quasi-law enforcement departments tucked away in odd places. NOAA has it’s own police department, for example (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/index.html). So, a ballpark estimate gives… Read more »

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

@JohnDunlap: I can help you with some updated numbers. There are approximately 1.6 million sworn LEO’s in the US and approximately 17 million concealed carry permit holders.

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Thanks. that’s more than I thought.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  John Dunlap

@John Dunlap Dunlap, I don’t want to turn this into a squabble because I am sure that you are a decent person. Let me give you one example a erroneous assumption. You write, “… anyone with the common sense and…” Can you give me a list of the sense that is common to all? There is no sense that is common to all. It is just a logic error to assume that there is. Here is another: “… cool headed attitude to qualify for law enforcement…” An undefined “cool headed attitude” is not a hiring qualification that I have ever… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

My apologies. The eleventh line should be: Ammunition commonality as a supply issue is not important?

John Dunlap
John Dunlap
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

You’re conflating supply chain issues with budget issues. Not the same thing at all. As to the rest, yes, you are quibbling. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Robert Maletta
Robert Maletta
4 years ago

I have and carry only 9mm with the right ammo and training l see absolutely no problem with this round and federal makes a +p+ 115 grain JHP that is very close to 357 sig and remember l said close over 1300 fps from a 4 inch barrel l get them for 16 dollars for 50 rounds anyone who thinks this round is ineffective has got to have something wrong with them

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Robert Maletta

I’ve a box of ammo that claims 2100 fps out of a 5 inch barrel out of a 1911. The ballistics on it are Scarry.

Spartacus
Spartacus
4 years ago

The powers at the top will make whatever changes they want,
and justify it, in the rationalization, rather than making a logical decision based
on empiric evidence. IMO, they should have stayed with the 10MM,
and properly trained their officers to shoot accurately. This sudden
change back to 9mm, after half-heartedly adopting the 40S&W is
typical of bureaucratic decision making at it’s worst.

Dominic j Coscarelli
Dominic j Coscarelli
4 years ago
Reply to  Spartacus

You have to remember that the FBI agents aren’t cops. To get in to the FBI you need a bachelors accounting. They really if ever hire people with law enforcement experience. So doesn’t matter what you hand them. Most of them don’t have the time invested to be good shots. What they need to do is drop the flock and go with a little more mass and weight to absorb the recoil. They should go back to the .45. Not necessarily the 1911. H&k makes a good polymer gun in .45 with great recoil management or a sig saur p220… Read more »

DR
DR
4 years ago

l Iike my P227

Gary
Gary
4 years ago

I remember Ruger used to do “carbines” in pistol calibers..& for a short time it was common practice for officers to have the carbines in their cruisers with other gear. Then gradually nothing in print, and no reports. But at the range, any time I shoot a carbine, it’s with twice the accuracy of the handgun.
The old saw, pistol to get to your rifle seems to me to apply even today..In the past men going in to harms way always preferred the rifle.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Gary

I sat with a police chief who used that Ruger carbine in .40. He said it made all his cops better shooters.

Roy D.
Roy D.
4 years ago
Reply to  Gary

As I shot our USPSA match this month I realized just how deadly a shooter with a PCC can be. There were three on my squad and I thought about just how screwed a group of people would be facing just one of them.

Douglas Allan
Douglas Allan
4 years ago

I have endlessly read of the .38 LC failure in the Philippines to justify the superiority of the almighty .45 ACP. I have however,less frequently read that the .45 replacements also had unacceptable performance against the Moros There is another modern case (per Mas Ayoob) of a bad guy shot 4 times in the back with a .45 who WALKED to the hospital. With modern hollowpoints (per the latest FBI testing), 9mm hollowpoint effectiveness is comparable to .45 ACP with a higher hit probability, given the ENORMOUS difference in recoil. If you doubt this, try shooting a .45 with one… Read more »

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Allan

I’d argue that a .45 has a slower less sharp recoil than a 9mm. That for a normal size woman the .45 is a better choice. Now, given that guns are lighter and smaller is a 9 a smarter choice? Maybe the combo of the frame and ammunition should be considered? Does the slimmer grip on a .45 off set the boxy grip on a “wonder 9”? Does your HRT unit was a out of the box Glock or a tuned 1911? To be honest my point in the article is that FBI based their selection on penetration, and the… Read more »

KCshooter
KCshooter
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

Focusing on penetration, which is only one factor of ammunition performance, is disingenuous.

The performance of modern 9mm ammunition is no where near the performance of the ammo in the 1986 Miami shootout.

Surely you aren’t trying to imply that the effectiveness of modern 9mm vs ammunition made over 3 decades ago is the same??

Ol' Vet
Ol' Vet
4 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Allan

The MOROS were the reason for going to the .45 ACP. I guess you don’t remember. The M1911A1 .45 pistol is the most deadly ever made. It can knock a 250 lb man flat of his back with one round. Beat that with your 9mm and all the rest. It is also MADE IN AMERICA!!!

In Your Face
In Your Face
4 years ago
Reply to  Ol' Vet

So where 9mm Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc. are made? China?

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Ol' Vet

Hate to burst your bubble, but if a round can knock the bad guy on his back it also will knock you on your back. Remember Newton? ‘For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction’. And the Springfield Armory 1911 comes from Brazil. Nice try; no cigar. P.S. There are no ‘deadly’ handguns. Only deadly shooters.

Peter Krzywicki
Peter Krzywicki
4 years ago
Reply to  Ol' Vet

I haVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THE 45. iT HAS A LOT OF KNOCK DOWN POWER. AS AN EXAMPLE I SHOT AT A MILK JUG WITH WATER IN IT ABOUT 35 OR 40 FEET AWAY WITH MY 45 AND IT PENETRATED THE JUG FAIRLY WELL. SPEED IS NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST. WEIGHT OF THE BULLET HAS A LOT TO DO WITH KNOCK DOWN POWER. I SHOT AT THE SAME JUG WITH MY 12 GUAGE AND LITERALLY DESTROYED THE JUG. SO THE BIGGER THE BULLET EVEN AT SLOW SPEEDS MEAN A LOT OF KINETIC ENERGY IS GIVEN. I WOULD TAKE… Read more »

DR
DR
4 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Allan

Nothing is “everything”.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago

From the Author – I asked for comments, and so please keep them coming.
Often the comments are the best part of an Ammoland article. The readership here is exceptionally knowledgeable. The observation that FBI agents don’t carry spare mags was something I’ll bet none of us knew. DBM

Gregg
Gregg
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

I am a vet of the 71>74 era. I still have a grudge against the first gen Colt etc M-16s with their jewel like teeny tiny .22(3) bullet, I despised mine if possible would have pleaded even for a big heavy 30.06 M rifle, even a BAR. Anyway, God was with us because we were issued a real tried and true firearm, the .45 ACP. I loved mine even if it rattled like crazy from loose worn parts. I don’t have time to go into why I simply love a few big, heavy soft slow moving rounds that allows the… Read more »

GUNRUNNER
GUNRUNNER
4 years ago
Reply to  Gregg

Well put sir

Roy F. Wilt
Roy F. Wilt
4 years ago

I saw a few comments about spare mags. The question is do I need a gun? Yes? Then you need Ammo! Remember that the most important thing is to run out of Targets before you run out of ammo! Just one target that you can’t service is the one that Kills You! So! If you are going to fight then do it right! If you want to not practice or be weighted down, WELL Then, Just run!!!!!!!!!! You stand a better chance of Living!

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago

FOR THOSE OF YOU STILL SERVING AND WEARING THE BLUES I COMMEND YOUR COURAGE ON SUCH HARD TIMES MY YEARS ARE DONE AND NOW I PRAY FOR EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU AS I DO MY SON. MY BLOOD BOILS AND I DRAW A TEAR EVERY TIM I SEE ANOTHER SOLDIER HAS DIED BY THE HANDS OF A COWARD OR AN OFFICER HAS PAID THE ULTIMATE FOR SIMPLY DOING WHAT WE HAVE PAID HIM TO DO WITH TRUE VALOR. SHALL WE NEVER TAKE IT FOR GRANTED!

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago

I AM A 34YR. TTL L.E.O AND HAVE CARRIED THROUGH MY PROFESSION DEPARTMENT ISSUED WEAPONS FROM THE 38 REVOLVER(COLT) TO THE S&W STAINLESS 357MAG WHEEL GUN TO THE 45ACP AND FINALLY THE GLOCK 40CAL. I BASE THIS ARTICLE ON FACTUAL EXPERIENCES. ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT SHOT A HUMAN (THANK THE LORD) I HAVE HUNTED ALMOST EXCLUSIVE WITH A HANDGUN SO I CAN SPEAK FROM STOPPING POWER TO MASS TO ACCURACY. I AM A 100% KILL SHOOTER DAY AND NIGHT FIRE. I HUNTED BLACK BEAR IN MAIN AND TOOK DOWN A 250LB BLACK BEAR WITH A S&W 357MAG. FIRST 2 ROUNDS… Read more »

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

M: You lost me after the first two sentences. Why? Because you insisted on using all CAPS. It just wears you out trying to comprehend it. It’s not how most people’s eyes are accustomed to reading text.

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Sorry too many years in law enforcement! Our regulations were to always type reports in caps for prosecutors so every report would look the same and to PRINT our names on all summonses and reports. No script. Sorry.. Look at the bright side… no need for glasses.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

Hah, when I was in we were hand writing them!

Joseph Bawden
Joseph Bawden
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

I work for a federal law enforcement agency, we change duty ammo every six months. I don’t mean brands I mean the ammo we carry in our service weapons.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Joseph Bawden

Bawden: That agency is wasting a LOT of money considering that modern day ammo has a working life well in excess of that. Also, you’d think that you’d be using it at the range more than that!

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Except that duty ammunition is NOT fired at the training range. Nice try; no cigar.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

@Clark Kent: You’ve just made a blanket statement that is not true.

Sgt. Saxxon
Sgt. Saxxon
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

My department has over 7000 sworn. We ONLY shoot duty ammo, and we shoot every month. You may think it is a waste of money, but I don’t. Train with what you can, but if your budget allows, make it as real as you can.

Kivaari
Kivaari
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

That is not true everywhere. We trained with ammo loaded to the same levels as our duty ammo. Then we qualified with duty ammo. One doesn’t qualify with training ammo in my department. It was a way to use up ammo that had been carried and show the court that we used the same ammo for quals.

Joseph Bawden
Joseph Bawden
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

Well we got one guy who says changing every six months is not feasible because the government is too cheap to pay for it and one guy who says changing ammo every six months is wasteful. So I guess when we each rise to the level of supervising federal agencies we can make that decision as we see fit. I didnt say we only.go to the range every six months, I said we change duty ammo every six months. We go to the range at the least once a quarter, we don’t shoot our duty ammo every time. I’m sure… Read more »

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Joseph Bawden

Yup, it always is and, unfortunately, when it comes to $$$, training is the child that usually gets shortchanged which is why you wind up with multi-million dollar suits when officers have shots that go astray.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Actually, if a law enforcement officer returns fire at a suspect that has shot at him and the round misses and hits an innocent the suspect is charged with the death of the innocent, not the officer. Nice try; no cigar.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

@ClarkKent: Where are you getting this BS? You must be smoking your own cigars and they’re not filled with tobay. Your assertions are so easily disproved it’s laughable.

Are you trolling?

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

@Clark Kent, Are you trying to describe the Felony Murder Rule?

G Dub
G Dub
4 years ago

The deadliest handgun is one that the shooter feels is the most efficient for them and is loaded with the most efficient ammunition for the task at hand. Simple as that. Well placed shots using the proper ammunition will stop the threat every time. If the agents in Miami, God rest their souls, were better marksmen, and they were using JHP, their 9mms would have been much more efficient for them IMHO.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  G Dub

Actually, the FBI agents in Miami WERE using Winchester Silvertip JHP rounds in 9mm Luger (not ‘Lugar’ as the author stated). Nice try; no cigar.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  G Dub

, You know, of course that Platt sustained a non survivable wound almost immediately at the beginning of the gun fight. Platt’s artery was severed by proper ammunitions and a well placed shot. Also, I am sure that you are aware that only two FBI agents died, and the other five wounded survived.

M.A. Hall
M.A. Hall
4 years ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

Bill, you are right on.

Roy D.
Roy D.
4 years ago

I have noticed something which is disconcerting. While my sample base is small, I have not encountered any FBI agents that, in their everyday routine, carry spare magazines on their person. You see this all the time on the various TV shows with a few exceptions that prove the rule. If they had been off duty maybe I could understand but they weren’t.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy D.

When I was actively working as an LEO and later doing executive protection, I always carried a minimum of two spare magazines. I have never met anyone who walked away from a gun fight and said “damn, I had way too much ammo, I think I’ll leave some of that home next time”.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy D.

So you believe what TELEVISION tells you? How old are you, twelve?

Roy D.
Roy D.
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

Clark, sorry my message confused you. Most people with even a mediocre education would have no problem understanding what I wrote. That leaves you and the rest of the simpletons.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy D.

, We, brother, do not care how little the Fat Boy Institute carries. If the feds have forgotten the lessons of the past, then lets not learn them up.

joe martin
joe martin
4 years ago

I remember years ago when the decision was made to go to semi-auto pistols for most law enforcement agencies. Various reasons abounded and I’m not sure which ones were valid and which were not. The fact is that now almost all LEOs in the USA are using semi-autos as their issue handguns. I’m old, and as such, remember being required to carry a .357 for duty (which I had to purchase). I also remember that we had to qualify regularly and were given (free) practice ammo. I have several friends who are LEOs and the one thing that has changed… Read more »

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  joe martin

Actually, it DOES matter what caliber you are using. The 22 LR, 25 ACP and 32 ACP are all WORTHLESS for self defense purposes because they FAIL TO STOP THE LETHAL THREAT PRONTO.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

Yup, you are a troll with absolutely nothing to back up your statements.

Troll and fake alert everyone.

JR Bailey
JR Bailey
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Don’t you know Vanns that Clark Kent far prefers to use harsh language, compared to a 25 ACP, 32 ACP, 380 ACP, end-of-course 22LR and 22 Mag!

I’ll bet you what though, if I offer to have him put some body armor on, and stand ten feet away and allow me to shoot him with one round each of the calibers above, I’m pretty sure he will reject the whole idea!

All of a sudden, Clark can’t will come to the realization that those rounds are lethally capable!

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  JR Bailey

I probably got a little more upset than I should have allowed myself to get. However, I get awfully tired of people talking out their butts about something they, obviously, have no practical knowledge or training. Then, when you don’t see any reply it’s a pretty good indication you’re dealing with a serial troll.

joe martin
joe martin
4 years ago
Reply to  JR Bailey

If you can put a .22, .25, .32 or any other round consistently where you want it (head, neck, heart) you will stop the fight. Body armor is a red herring in this argument as no one here (hopefully) will be defending themselves against someone in body armor. Some folks don’t respond to B.S. from people who make accusations and only post to disagree, want to cause trouble (Trolls) or just hear (read) their own posts to make themselves feel important. The vast majority of people who comment on spelling and grammar do so because they have nothing else to… Read more »

Roy F. Wilt
Roy F. Wilt
4 years ago

I Carry a FNX-45! It has a Hammer, a Safety, a Decocker, and a 15 round Magazine! Anything less than a 45 is just begging to lose the firefight! I always carry at least 2 spare Magazines and sometimes 4! So I always have between a box and a Box and a half of ammo on me at all times! Plus the FNX-45’s recoil is less than most 9mm pistols! I also do not trust sticker fired pistols many have no safety and few are proofed against accidental discharge!

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy F. Wilt

ROY F.DO YOUR KNEES BOW AT THE END OF THE DAY? I HAVE THE MARINE CORP. SPECIAL FORCES 45 (FORTUNATE TO GET ONE) AND I HAVE QUALIFIED WITH IT DAY AND NIGHT FIRE LAST QUAL. BUT ID NEVER DREAM OF CARRYING IT AS A SERVICE GUN IN A STD BELT HOLSTER WITH SPARE MAGS. ITS BEAUTIFUL AND FOR THE MARINES TO CARRY IN A LOWER LEG HOLSTER WITH SPARE MAGS IS OK. I CANT EVEN USE THE TERM “LOADED FOR BEAR” BECAUSE I KNOW IT DOESNT WORK. just a little humor

Roy F. Wilt
Roy F. Wilt
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

TONY M,
No My FNX-45 weighs 2.2 pounds with 16 rounds! I carry a mag in each cargo pocket and 2 in Magazine pouches on my belt! I carry the Pistol from the time I get up in the morning until i go to bed! With 95% of my time at home, where will I likely need it? At home! I use an Alain Gear Holster and I actually feel naked if I am not carrying!

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

You guys remember that a handgun is what you use until you can get to your long gun.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

@Vanns, Yes, that is one lesson from the FeeBee shootout in 1986. Platt with the rifle destroyed the FBI team, wounding seven of eight. The FeeBee that got to the shotgun saved them.

Wayne Clark
Wayne Clark
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Dang it…I don’t have a long gun! Guess I’ll just have to get better with my pistol until I can save up for one.

JR Bailey
JR Bailey
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

Do us all a favor would you?

Pull your freaking caps lock key off your keyboard and put it in the garbage!

I’d love to read what you have to say but I’m not willing to Wade through the upper case!

FB
FB
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy F. Wilt

10mm

The only safety you need is the first four rules of gun safety, otherwise one should get more training.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  FB

Excellent. Remembering of course that firearms should be free from true “AD’s”, which the Sig 320 is not. That was a product flaw but that’s another topic.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Roy F. Wilt

‘Sticker’ fired pistols? Do those go off when they are exposed to a bumper sticker? And by the way, proofing a firearm has NOTHING to do with an accidental discharge, which is ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE OPERATOR.

DSmith
DSmith
4 years ago

Thanks for the history lesson but that has no bearing on choosing a caliber to stick with today. It comes down to cost effectiveness in a shootout when things are going horribly wrong and fast there will be a lot of misses. The pure adrenaline rush dump will make accurate shooting a difficult task. It is fair more reasonable to make that up with capacity over the 45’ers theory of one shot stopper. If ergonomics are a issue imagine the reloading of a single stack those 7 cap magazines will go quick, the double stack 45’s now you want to… Read more »

Duncan Duhaveline
Duncan Duhaveline
4 years ago

hasn’t this subject been exhausted – why are we revisiting time after time – carried 1911 for years with confidence – now carry Sig 320 with confidence and more capacity – moving forward

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago

CHECK ON THE P320 THE CIVILIAN MODEL IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE DROP TEST ISSUES WHICH SIG WILL FIX FREE. THEY ARE VERY CLOSED MOUTH ABOUT IT. THEY CLAIM THE MILITARY MODEL DOES NOT HAVE THE ACCIDENTAL FIRE ISSUE. NICE FIREARM!

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

Sig has issued a total recall.

DR
DR
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

i heard they are going to recall all of them?

Charles
Charles
4 years ago
Reply to  TONY M

SIG P320 The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies. Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge. As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program… Read more »

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Charles

Cutting through it all, they have a serious problem which, after the video came out, they can no longer cover up or explain away. It’s a design defect plain and simple.

RSicwing
RSicwing
4 years ago

Wow all these limp wristed 9mm women, are hurt when any one dares to question their favorite caliber, there are the 3 most popular handgun calibers 45acp, 40s&w and, 9mm all improved, training is the number one factor, and shot placement is true with any caliber, time & time again the 9mm has been proven to be the weakest of the 3, for close quarter combat, for self defense you need the most power, the best performing round you can safely and effectively use, and size does matter, if it didn’t then why not go with a 22 mag it’s… Read more »

TONY M
TONY M
4 years ago
Reply to  RSicwing

FUNNY YOU SAY THAT THE BODY ARMOR COMPANIES FEAR THE MOST IS A 45GR. FMJ 22MAG ROUND! I KEEP A 4″ 22MAG LOADED IN THE HOME

AND YES WE HAVE BEATEN THE DEAD HORSE OPINIONS VARY SO GREATLY. ONE THING CANT BE DISPUTED BY ANYONE, PRACTICE IS THE KEY. I WAS SHOWING OFF MY AR-10 308 TO MY SON SERVING IN THE MILITARY. HE SAID “NOT IMPRESSED” YOU SEE HE FLIES MILITARY DRONES . BIGGER IS BETTER? I GUESS AT TIMES.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  RSicwing

22 Magnum equal to the 9mm Luger in ballistics? Since when and in what universe?

Brick
Brick
4 years ago

I use a Kimber pro tactical 1911 in .45. I am a larger handed and well trained shooter. Combat shooting is sometimes at best a crap shoot. The 1911 is an bad fit for some and great fit for other’s. My wifes carry is a micro version of mine chambered in .380. Her hands are small and wrists aren’t that strong. My point. I train her on focus, and alertness then when shtf the guns are controllable. Wide rear sight notches and low bore axis pistols make better self defense tools. A game of laser tag can work wonders if… Read more »

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Brick

Yup; the 22 LR has its place; if you are hunting rabbits…….

Dusty
Dusty
4 years ago

Unbelievable….. enough said!!!!
75% B.S. Is an under statement….imho!

CountryBoy
CountryBoy
4 years ago

I believe the 80% number of LEOs…..
.
Does anyone remember the case in NYC a few years back where the COPS shot 8 Bi-Standers while engaging a suspect LESS than 15 yards away ????

joe martin
joe martin
4 years ago
Reply to  CountryBoy

I also remember the NYC incident where 2 NYC police officer fired 38 rounds at a suspect in a doorway and only managed 4 hits.

Patrick D. Sperry
Patrick D. Sperry
4 years ago
Reply to  CountryBoy

That was not at all a caliber thing. The Mayors office, along with the Commissioners, decided that they had to be PC, and make their Police shoot using twelve pound minimum triggers. I actually spoke with one of the Officers that were involved about this incident. His conclusion was that the politicos were more fond of the perps than the lives of the Officers and day to day citizens.

BJI
BJI
4 years ago

Dumbokrats ARE ALWAYS defending criminals!!!

Joseph Bawden
Joseph Bawden
4 years ago

It is this article and others like it that lead me away from gun magazines and online gun articles. I want to hear varying perspectives, but it seems lime we rarely get the perspective of a younger generation, who is currently working in LE. We do however, get a lot of old timers who love to go on and on about how the 1911 and the 45acp are Gods gift to gun fights, and nothing has ever or will ever come close to matching it. If you like them, cool use them, but this idea that “my shit is cooler… Read more »

Mark Are
Mark Are
4 years ago

Nice to hear that 70-80% of all shots fired by LEO go off into the wild blue yonder to stop in the head of some kid riding his tricycle a few blocks away. Or who knows where else. Maybe they should try other methods instead of shooting at everyone in sight because of their mind set. Like the guy in NY City where the police shot nine bystanders while trying to hit him. How about actually trying to defuse the situation and bring the perp to trial? Remember the adage, innocent until PROVEN guilty? Or does that no longer apply.… Read more »

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark Are

Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? In other words, put up or shut up.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  Clark Kent

Why don’t YOU do some research before spouting off on just about everything on which you know absolutely nothing about? Oh, I forgot, you’re a troll.

Paladin
Paladin
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Please don’t feed the troll!

MB
MB
4 years ago

This article is 75% BS, the round most responsible for death is a lowly 22LR, not 45, 357 mag, 9nn or any other. It is shot placement that stops the bad guy. And yes, under stress 99.99 % of humans will not retain enough composure to get the perfect “kill” shot with the first round. I do think having more rounds is useful, but training, skill and composure under stress most likely and the best determinate factors.

Joseph Bawden
Joseph Bawden
4 years ago
Reply to  MB

Exactly

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
4 years ago
Reply to  MB

Yup; the 22 LR is the most responsible for the death of the good guy (not the bad guy) due to the fact it FAILED TO STOP THE LETHAL THREAT PRONTO.

MFrance
MFrance
4 years ago

First, who let this guy write an article? Second did anyone from this site read it before publishing it. He seriously tried to make his argument by comparing modern 9mm ammo to .38LC army ammo from 112 years ago. The most recent anecdotal comparison in his writing is a shootout video from 1997 with heavily armored suspects. His entire argument seems to be, big hole better. He cited no real data. He has completely failed to take into account velocity, mass and modern bullet design. Since he doesn’t seem to know this, there are bullets other than lead cast and… Read more »

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  MFrance

Now now, don’t be mean. And two weeks ago. I’m not saying bigger is always better. I’m saying the focus on the 9mm goes against the history of the FBI, and it looks more like a political choice. That is was the FBI that said stopping power was a myth, and that their discussion was based on 15 inches of penetration. Did you read the article before responding?

Russell
Russell
4 years ago

“LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident.” This isn’t an FBI specific stat, and it specifies “during a shooting incident”, so “poor training” isn’t really a fair assessment. It’s very difficult, if not impossible to recreate the biological effects that a true life-threatening action has on your body and the FBI probably does the best job of this. No one handgun will ever be great for everyone, so personally I feel that law enforcement agencies would be best served by investing in a single caliber/brand of ammo, but provide a wide variety… Read more »

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Russell

Up from 40%.

DPeck
DPeck
4 years ago

Modern ammo advances render 9mm lack of stopping power argument less valid. High miss rates is the norm for life threatening combat situations with most all conventional training backgrounds. Smaller grips make Glocks less detestable for smaller handed shooters. Less recoil of 9mm tends to increase accuracy and faster follow-up shots.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  DPeck

Actually, I would recommend a single stack Glock in Sig 357. It is the most accurate round for the Block.

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

DBM: And, unfortunately, has a greater propensity for over penetration.

DBM
DBM
4 years ago
Reply to  Vanns40

Yes. A few years ago the local Leo’s used sub Sonic 9mm. Out preformed by a hot .380..

Some cops went to their back up guns 1st.

No easy answer, but an 80 miss rate leads me to ask. One hit with possible over pen or 8 misses?

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 years ago
Reply to  DBM

More training followed by continuing training over the career of the officer. Of course that requires dedication of funds.