Gun Makers Fight ‘Impossible’ California Requirement

Originally posted on the Courthouse News Service, by Nathan Solis

Gun Makers Fight ‘Impossible’ California Requirement
Gun Makers Fight ‘Impossible’ California Requirement

LOS ANGELES-(Ammoland.com)- The challenge of a California law requiring gun manufacturers to implement technology that may not yet exist landed at the California Supreme Court on Wednesday, raising questions about potentially impossible rules and standards.

Since 2013, California’s Unsafe Handgun Act requires two identifying microstamps be placed on a cartridge when a bullet is fired.

The microstamping standard has whittled down the list of guns the state deems safe for residents to legally purchase, according to the gun industry.

Furthermore, the National Shooting Sports Foundation said in a lawsuit filed in 2014, the technology isn’t there. The case was dismissed in 2015 by a state court judge, who said concerns about inability to comply with the statute are for the Legislature – not the courts – to handle.

But an appellate panel ruled gun manufacturers do have a right to try and prove that they could not comply with the law.

Micro-Stamping
Debating Microstamping Legislation in California

On Wednesday, the foundation’s attorney Lance Selfridge with Lewis Brisbois Bisgarrd and Smith told the Supreme Court justices that dual placement of micro-stamps is impossible. He compared the statute to one of raising the dead and the creating an impossible standard for health care providers to follow.

But arguing for the state, attorney Janill Richards said the law is meant as incentive for the gun manufacturing industry. She noted it’s the Legislature’s prerogative to ask industry to look at new technology and used the federal Clean Air Act as an example.

Justice Mariano-Florentino Cuéllar asked Selfriedge if the high court decides the microstamping requirement is binding on the gun industry, then what impossible means in that context.

Selfridge answered that it’s impossible under current technology, to which Justice Ming Chin followed up by asking if dual microstamping might be possible in the future.

Perhaps, said Selfridge, in the way that Leonard da Vinci had conceived of the helicopter concept hundreds of years before they existed.

Justice Goodwin Liu asked another hypothetical question, about advanced motorcycle helmets that are expensive and required to operate a motorcycle in California. Liu noted many people are priced out of owning a motorcycle because of the helmet’s price tag, and asked if that law is also invalid as a result.

Selfridge responded that an expense does not make something impossible, leading Liu to press: “How much has been spent on developing dual-placement microstamping technology?”

Selfridge said he didn’t know.

Chief Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye said a lot of accomplishments would never have happened if those responsible for them had applied the gun industry’s logic.

“I’m having a hard time understanding impossible. In the sense that it’s never been tried or demonstrated, that it has failed and that it is hopelessly futile,” she asked. “What’s wrong with getting there? What’s wrong with having that hearing with experts?”

Selfridge said the goal for the gun manufacturers is to have a new trial where they can present expert testimony on available technology and what is possible.

The justices did not indicate when they would rule.

  • 74 thoughts on “Gun Makers Fight ‘Impossible’ California Requirement

    1. When “assult” rifles were outlawed in CA, their numbers increased many fold. Outlaw ammo and the inventories will also increase many fold. Outlaw 50 BMG rifles? That’s right, all they had to do was modify them and they were no longer considered 50 BMG’s. Citizens are not as dumb as the legislators.

    2. Hey!!! So all of you people thay say just write off Ca. are imbecile”s. I was born and raised here and there is no way I am leaving unless we totally lose are 2nd amendment rights completely. And by the way other states are already trying to use Cali draconian law’s. This is a war already and I am anf will continue to do my part by voting, texting, calling, emailing and protesting against are tyrannical government. I betcha most of you are complacent and do nothing, but why would you you’re not on the front lines of the this war against them in office. I vote for the best NRA “A” rating republicans I have available to me however my county is very red it truly doesn’t matter cause of silly valley, L.A., S.F. ,Sacramento and parts of San Diego these 5 county’s have Californians largest populations and most of those idiots vote blue which decides how we get in government. By the way these are the same idiots that voted for the Smelliary Cunton that almost gave her the win. So New York and California wpuld decide for the rest of the our country who wins if we didn’t have an electoral college system is that fair ? NO, somebody must stay and fight and not run for state line leaving ALL of these idiots here to make are law’s so stop being pussies and fight for yours and my rights and thinking all Californians are a waste of time because if myself and those like minded individuals left then it will come to you’re front doors so stop your bitching and start supporting. Did any of you know this is the only place the NRA has a satellite office to fight our front lines everyday here in California. And the fight is fierce having to do this shit daily so we can keep our rights it shouldn’t have to be but it is so I choose to stay and fight for our constitutional rights. So shut up or stand up and fight by doing your part so this doesn’t jump borderlines to your state, mind you we used to have a full selection to choose from just like you but now we don’t because people bacame complacent so fight with us and not criticize us cause that jusy makes them right then we loose and they think it’s ok because you people are empowering them to say see its ok let them move so we are all like minded individuals left to make are law’s abolishing the hole 2nd amendment and then it’s easier for Oregon and Washington too. And now what everyone moves to you’re state makes everything over crowded and more expensive then some say I don’t feel safe let’s be like Cali and just change the law’s here too it only the 9th circuit court which is the biggest and control’s some of your state court’s also so stop being a little whining bitch and complainimg about us and again stand with us who are fighting for everyone’s right’s cause it really doesn’t matter where you live you to can either stand with us or sit on your ass and watch what happens but I guarantee if that’s what you want to do you’re going to eventually have to follow the rules they’ll bring to you too. I’m done with moronic idiots who keep thinking we are a lost cause, well we are not yet because of the people here that stand up and fight. So now I am asking here and now are you gonna or be part of the problem, its your choice cause if we loose it’s going to eventually come for you…

      1. If you and all your second amendment loving people in California have been there all these years then why have you not solve your problems yet and why are things getting worse?
        any one of you can read your state constitution for the powers that you have to remove a corrupt official from office I suggest you get off of social media and start reading up on what you need to do to solve your problem before the election comes up and get those criminal bitches and bastards out of office!

      2. debating what the CaCa landers are doing is tantamount to tick turd racing…just say.n…Self inflicted injury.

      3. Considering how poorly you write in the English language, it’s no wonder that anything you have written to your legislature receives no response! Do you even understand the difference between “are” and “our”? Illiteracy is the hallmark of today’s America, thanks to the leftist agenda and LAZY-ASS individuals like you that refuse to take the time and pride to write coherently!
        By the way, YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST YOUR RIGHTS IN COMMIEFORNIA! You would have to be dead to not see that! The only thing I agree with you on is that Commiefornians would rather RUN than stay and fight. But the real problem is that Commiefornia are FAR PAST the calm, voting and/or ‘writing to legislator’ actions – when will you people take up arms and physically remove the left?! You do realize that our forefathers NEVER would have NOR did them allow it to get this far!
        Come on Commiefornia conservatives, organize and take action, the rest of the nation will follow!

        1. RattlerJake said:

          “You do realize that our forefathers NEVER would have NOR did them allow it to get this far!” Right after he chastised someone about their grammar and spelling skills. Karma ?

      4. What am I missing here ? The purpose of the stamping is to identify who the bullet that was used in a criminal act came from ? So, someone willing to commit murder with or without a firearm, will be deterred because possession of ammo without a microstamp is a criminal act ? Isn’t the argument for legalizing drugs that, by doing so you make it safer, taxable, and eliminate the black market for them ? Why does that logic not apply here ? Inconvenience ?

        1. the criminals that already own guns illegally would commit crimes with the guns that don’t have micro stamping. So ask yourself a question who is effected with microstamping, it’s law abiding citizens like me that are seeing this state implement laws that make it harder for citizens to buy weapons in a mature recreational/ self-defense/ constitutional purpose. The government is just showing a way how citizens can just go to the dark side of things and get what they want because it’s much easier for those civilians then to have to put up with the laws The DOJ want to implement to take more of your money away. And gather more of your information so they can criminalize you. In doing that they can and will be creating more criminals for such demands!

      1. Everybody else cannot win by cutting Kalifornia off. The enemy would just take it over and do more mass invasion. Then easily do the same to the next states. We have to win the fight in Kalifornia and push them back or into the sea.

        1. Haven’t you been paying attention to what’s been going on in California over the last 40 years? it’s a done deal all you liberals and snowflakes in California have turned the entire State into a failed LBJ Detroit Michigan

    3. CA tried before to stop interstate shipping of ammo and was shot down by the ICC. States cannot regulate interstate movement of goods. Should happen again!

    4. You need manufacturing companies to stop selling ANYTHING to kalifornia an I do mean everything.No cars,trucks,electronics,electricity, water anything else you can think of. I will not buy anything made or sold in kalifornia if I know an I try to find out.Shut them down

    5. Apparently nobody in California is aware that anyone can simply reload ammunition, thus making identifying who bought it futile?

      And while many in sllycone valley in support of such drivel can hack a computer, they can’t conceive of taking a file to any stamp? Even if it’s on the primer, it can be filed off.

      1. …and a small drop of hydrochloric acid over the area that was filed down will remove any filing and expose the stamping beneath the surface.

        1. @GR, yeah, because the metal below the stamping is weakened. I had forgotten about that. However, I am confident that people will still find ways to kill people and remain anonymous. Blade, garrote, rock, and under the sink kitchen cleaning chemicals have no serial number.

          1. Just look at London Eng., overtook NYC in murders, AND THEY DON’T HAVE GUNS! These leftists don’t have any brain cells left, they are totally unable to grasp the concept of an evil, criminally minded individual killing someone without using a gun. The only leftists that actually might get it are those that have been killed by those criminals and it is too late for them.

    6. I wonder how the state and local governments would react if firearms manufacturers and ammunition manufacturers would no longer sell ANYTHING in the land of fruits, nuts, and flakes.

      1. There are already firearms manufactures that will not sell to any state agency in the Peoples Republic of Kookafornia

        1. Except there is a problem with that line of thinking. State agencies here already don’t use American made guns for the most part. Sig Sauer is king among CA PD’s, with exception of CHP, almost every officer I have run into is armed with a Sig pistol/Sig AR pattern rifle. Recently San Diego SWAT bought a ton of Sig AR rifles to replace out their aging Vietnam era M16’s. European manufactures don’t care about gun control laws because most of their sales are off military/police anyways. Not even S&W will turn down a contract, the PD sales business is too lucrative especially in CA. CA could not give a damn less if “Joe Blows AR’s LLC” stopped selling guns to PD’s, they got plenty of DOJ military surplus and other manufactures that are more than willing to fill that gap.

          Also I don’t think its right to punish PD’s because of the idiocy of our legislators, especially when most officers are extremely pro gun, yes, even in SF.

          Its just kinda something that gets under my skin. (Im extremely pro-gun btw)

    7. This “Supreme” court is also obviously infected by the disease of liberalism too. Laws are not made to incentivize anybody, they are meant to punish. Requiring an industry to implement technology that does not exist is inane. Asking them to forecast the future is also inane.

      1. And it is not only the right but the DUTY of the people to a NOTICE AND DEMAND against theindividual that is in violation of their Oath iof Office for their alledged violations. if the elected or appointed official does not respond in kind within 30 days then it is the Citizen’s duty to file a willful neglect of statutory Duty against that person and hand over the paperwork to the grand jury Foreman which then allows the grand jury the power to investigate not only the allegations alleged but whatever else the grand jury finds in the course of their investigation of any other violations of law at that time. it only takes ONE PERSON to start the ball rolling!

      1. We don’t want those mentally diseased moonbats running all around the country spreading their liberal bullshit all over the place crapping up others areas of the country and then leaving to go and destroy another area of the country what their deceased liberalism?

    8. The California legislation cannot push this kind of crap legislation on anybody because it is a direct violation of the Fifth Amendment and all the prosecutors know it right off the bat, each and every case where one of these pieces of brass shows up gets automatically tossed!

      Bunch of dumbasses, wearing their little black dresses beating away on their little hammer on their desk when they get upset can’t do a normal day’s work of anything REAL

      Yet We, the Complacent People let them sit on those benches running their mouthes, legislating from benches, violating the laws every single day!

        1. The State of California allows illegal aliens to have drivers licenses with which they can register to vote.How do the honest voters overcome the 3 million illegal voters?? It is not the common man that votes these idiots in. Look at the state maps after an election. The liberal vote is centered on Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco.all of which have high population centers of Illegal Voters.

      1. @GR, the prosecutors don’t care about our Second Amendment Civil Rights, why would they care about our Fifth Amendment Civil Rights? Barry Soetoro set a very bad precedent by choosing which laws he would enforce. Now, everyone is doing it, … and getting away with it.

        1. @WB, that’s because WE the Sheeple have been allowing them to get away with it. It is time to stop and systematically yank one by one out of office and push for them to be prosecuted by Grand Jury indictment! what’s the first Domino Falls the rest will soon follow and people will pick up steam in applying their duty to remove these corrupt officials from office.

          I stood alone when I took 5 police officers, 2 County jailers and a motel manager all out of business in Albuquerque New Mexicoin a 1991 assault against my civil rights. See: Romeo v. City of Albuquerque, 1994.

          It only takes one person that actually gives a damn about their rights enough to fight and to do whatever it takes to step up and fight.

    9. Even if complied with fully by gun manufacturers, the technology could be defeated by anyone with a file, a screwdriver or a 49 state firing pin. And what about 20-25 million guns already in Komiefornia. The people who create this stupidity do not care if it works or not, in fact I think they are hoping it won’t, so then they can create more gun laws on the prohibition of ammo, bullets, brass, gunpowder, primers, steel tubes, metal scraps, knifes, baseball bats, and rocks. They want an unarmed mass to rule over, it’s that simple. Revolution is coming, it’s just a matter of when.

    10. Thankfully I live close enough to a free state I can go buy what i want via PPT. Cali doesnt need to know I have it anyways.

      1. Be careful: Buying a ppt in a state you do not legally live in can cause you Federal problems. Also, any firearm in your possession will be checked (run for serial number) and if it is not registered in your name in Cali that is a crime.If you claim you bought it before the law change and can not prove it you can be charged.Especially if it is a firearm built after the law changed. Even if you manage not to be tried and convicted it can cost you thousands of dollars and the loss of the firearm.I have dual citizenship both in Cali and Arizona because I maintain a residence there. I’m extra careful not to bring any firearms I bought in Arizona back across the border. Because then I could be charged with illegal possession of a non California compliant firearm.Many people who have moved here are unaware of this law and have gone to jail because of it.If you buy a firearm in another state LEAVE IT THERE DO NOT BRING IT INTO CALIFORNIA.

    11. Of course police and military are exempt. It is about disarming people. What would micro stamping do anyway. A criminal could just use a revolver or police their brass or grab handfuls of spent brass from the range and throw it all around. Completely asinine.

    12. Well at least criminals will here this and stop doing crime. Ohh yea thats right…. criminals dont care about the law.

    13. The only reason for the 2nd amendment is to guard against Tyranny! The Government would use the armed forces to oppress the people and that is why the people are supposed to have access to the same arms as the military! So any “Infringement” to that is unconstitutional!

    14. Kalifornia! Kalifornia,impose Marshall Law take it over and start over.All laws that are,are not no more. This is the only way. You are not going vote it,to many snowflakes.They take a shit an wipe their ass with our constitution.A real disrespect for it.

      1. @DK, yep, the government of Ca. is in full rebellion. It would not be difficult to arrest the legislature, governor, various judges, county, city, and university officials, probably all on one night. Then impose reconstruction.

    15. The regulations that California has put out on the gun industry is so unfair to law a biding citizens it isn’t funny. This sort of law requiring ammo companies to develop technology for double microstamping on ammo is ridiculous . The criminals will find a way around purchasing this type of ammo just like in how they get their weapons. Criminals don’t go to the gun shop to buy a gun, they buy them from the trunk of a car or steal them. Does the court system think that passing this law will make a difference in reducing crime in California. I doubt if it would, it just makes for more black market items to sell. People will be leaving California in droves. The federal government should cut off all funding to California. And when they go through their wild fire season and mud slides, let them handle it themselves.

      1. You’re right about the people leaving and the black market criminalities. The ammo manufacturers have nothing to do with this however. The new double microstamping law is placed on arms manufacturers to create weapons capable of imprinting two distinct microstamps on shell casings when every round is fired in order to determine without a doubt which firearm the casing was fired from. This is stupid for many reasons, especially since CSI detectives can already determine this using current technology (distinctive microscopic firing pin and extractor marks), and have closed thousands of firearm-related cases using this method. This is obviously just another way for the CAliphate to remove the rights of their citizens to keep and bear arms, this time by making it more difficult to manufacture weapons to be sold in the State of Khalifornia

      2. Unfair??
        Are you laboring under the delusion that life is inherently fair?

        It is up to the citizenry to obtain “fairness” in society and in government. That is exactly and precisely why the 2nd Amendment exists. We will either avail ourselves of its remedies, or we will not.

        Your move, Liberals.

    16. Hi from the uk ..
      I believe any form of stamping of a spent cartridge could be helpful in tracing back only to the point of sale of the firearm.. What it won’t do is stop criminal/unlawful use of a firearm and in most cases the police do an excellent job of tracking down the perpetrators. It seems most of the proposed legislation is a knee jerk reaction to the appalling mass shootings you have recently suffered in the USA. None of the legislature proposals will stop such sad atrocities from happening. No amount of legislation will stop criminal/ murderous intent.. Ban firearms and see where that will get you!! I believe it would only serve to disarm law abiding citizens and create an even larger amount of unlawful guns available for those with criminal intent ..
      Tighten up the vetting process re firearm ownership where necessary but not at the expense of each lawful citizens rights.
      Education and intelligence led policing will help the fight against terrorism and the same applies to gun ownership and renewal of permissions to own Firearms..
      One can not legislate for criminal / murderous / terror activities and as a world surely we have learnt that. What we can do is come together as a people and unite in our condemnation of such acts. Stop the infighting which appears to an outsider to be be purely for political gain and stop punishing the firearm industry and the vast majority of lawful firearm owners/ users.
      Regards and Respect from the UK.

      1. You were doing fine until you wrote this bit:

        the same applies to gun ownership and renewal of permissions to own Firearms..

        Part of the PROBLEM is that California’s Supreme Rulers deign themselves sufficiently powerful to require “permissions to own firearms”. WHen something is a RIGHT, government HAVE no authority to demand their Mother May I Cards as a prerequisite to exercise that RIGHT.

        There is one sure way to beat this issue, IF an attorney has the smarts to present it and make it stick:

        my imposing this madate on firearms as a coditioin of being sold into the State of California, they violate the Full Faith and credit clause… I think its Article of Ammendment 14 that includes this one. Essentially it says that if I can own something in State A, I cna also lawfully own that in State B or C. There are no gun manufacturers in California since Weatherby got smart and hopped the line. This law effectively imposes a burden on gun manufacturers in OTHER STATES and denie them their RIGHT to ship guns into California for sale in the normal course of business. The whole “safe gun list” insanity that California maintain need to go.. and this is the key to trashing it. If a specific make/model can be sold in Alabama, Texas, Nevada, Oregon, it MUST also be able to be sold in California.

        THen there is the companion issue of the Interstate Commerce clause.. a DEMAND that COngress assure that trade amongst the several states remains free. No tariffs on interstate mvoement of goods. Congress need to step up and pounce upon California for all theor “special needs” requriements to keep their subjects “safe”… NOT the job of a state anyway. This law does two things: it makes it impossible for the PEOPLE of California to purchase new firearms within their state that lack this specific feature. It also makes it impossible for firearm manufacturers to ship their products, legal in all other states and terrirotries, into one specific state,California. BOTH are contrary to the COnstitution of the US. California agreed to govern themselves per the terms and conditions and requirements of the US Constitioin back in 1859 when they voted to join the union. They agreed to the WHOLE Constitution as written and ammended to that time, and as may be ammended in future. Time someone hold their feet to the fire. This nonsense is of the same cloth as their “sanctuary state” insanity, their “special needs” mandates for vehicle exhaust emissions standards, and likely a few more things I can’t think of just now. They are in open rebellion against the US Constitution. Perhaps S&W, Colt, Ruger, Remington, Beretta, should mount a class action lawsuit against the State of California for their unlawful denial of entry into their “sacred” state of firearms lawful to be sold and possessed in all the rest of the states, in violation of both the ICC Clause and the 14th Article of Ammendment. This suit can ONLY be filed with the SUpreme COurt of the US, as a state will be one of the named parties. No circus, district, state, or other court can lawfully take up such an action. SCOTUS only.

    17. All ammo must be delivered via Unicorns. Oh, you don’t have Unicorns? This is a blatant ban, and unconstitutional.

    18. As a gun manufacturer, just announce will no longer sale any guns in Cali including to the police and National Guard and basically withdraw from the state.

        1. @Greg, you have correctly stated the “unconstitutional due to lack of substantive due process test” argument. I always thought that it should be call the “statutory ulterior motive” test. Good job.

      1. If gun manufacturers simply refuse to sell in the state then the anti gun crowd effectively gets the complete ban on firearms they want. New York and other hard left leaning states would then pass the same law. Contrary to what the court is claiming, making it prohibitively expensive to exercise an individual right absolutely is an infringement on that right and is therefore unconstitutional.

        1. Unfortunately, given the current anti-constitutional corruption in our judicial and legislative systems, that argument won’t wash. It didn’t work with Obamacare’s mandatory purchase requirements nor with all the rediculously high costs for new clean energy mandates or automotive and transportation ‘improvements’ or costly out-of-control mandatory health procedures, etc., etc.

          The government always has more money (our’s) to enforce its will and hence we have less money to fight our own government’s mandates. It’s a vicious circle that enriches those who make all the new rules and regulations and requirements so they will always create more such laws.

          We can’t win unless we get rid of the corruption. If the ballot box and jury box continue to fail us, we will have no recourse but the ammo box!

        2. I agree, but if manufacturers quit selling non- CA compliant firearms to police and national guard in CA, we will quickly see legislation to remove the ban.

      2. Comment…I for the life of me cannot understand why any manufacture of fire arm related products stay in commiefornia . The illegals have proven boarders don’t mean anything . Let the smuggling begin . I have purchased products from commiefornia but I will no longer knowingly do so . I can find the same products in other places .

      3. Colt already did that 2 years ago. This is why, when I retire to a quieter and saner place, I will never buy a Colt fire arm. They abandoned us.

    19. Sounds like the lame assed Californians need to start yanking judges off the bench for Willful Neglect of Statutory DUTY what the possibility of having grand jury investigations into all of them rather than allowing them to legislate From the Bench like they are which is highly illegal immoral and unethical!?!

    20. What they Want Is No Guns PERIOD !
      They Found a Snipe , Now They Want
      Gun Makers To Replicate it. In order to
      Sell in Comifornia. DON’T COMPLY !
      Don’t Sell Guns & Ammo to Cities for
      Their Protection . Let Them Reap Their
      Just Rewards !

      1. Roger: Amen to that!!! No two ways about it period! they clearly hate the Constitution and the 2A amendment. They will NOT stop until they BAN guns and ammo outright and then what will be next? They will literally Never Stop with all of this garbage nonsense.

      2. Every one of the 22,000 gun laws in this country is an infringement, and unconstitutional. Unconstitutional laws are not laws, we just need someone to defend the Constitution. I see no takers in the last 100 years.

      3. No question about it. In fact, it is more than just infringement. The politicians of the left have violated their oaths of office, and they have essentially cut half of the residents of the state out of participation in the American way of life. Businesses forced to close because regulations have made it impossible to stay in business (not 1 gun shop left in San Francisco and we can no longer order ammo online, so our firearms are paperweights). We try to fight it, but we are outvoted, ignored, or, reportedly, Brown and his thugs try to use union methods to shut us down. I have repeatedly called for the USAG to investigate how our constitutional rights have been trampled, but it will take more than just me. Until something gets done to return our rights, I’m taking a civil disobedience position just as our Founders did.

        1. As has been stated above, this is like a cancer. It spreads. Here in VT, the safest state in the 48, and the best gun laws, our rino gov is signing a new gun laws package today. The folks I know are in the ‘will not comply’ group as am I. When I lose my rights to defend myself and loved ones, I will fight to the end. “FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS”.

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