7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester Ammo, What’s The Difference?

Gun nut, Tom McHale, risks a fight to explain the subtle nuances between 7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester Ammunition.

Can you shoot .308 ammo in a 7.62 rifle? Or is it the other way around?
Can you shoot .308 ammo in a 7.62 rifle? Or is it the other way around?

USA –-(Ammoland.com)- If you want to start a good bar fight, ask about a saloon full of gun people about the differences between .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO. We’re going to dive into the fray with a simplified and practical explanation. Ready?

  • They are different.
  • They aren’t different.
  • They might be different.

OK, so that was a bit of a wise guy response, but those statements are all quite true. Don’t worry, we’ll explain further. However, we’re going to try to do that in such a way that you don’t want to bash your own brains out by having to read about the nuances of things like piezo transducers.

Let’s look at a few categories of comparison, then we’ll sum things up.

7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester – History

During the 1940s and early 1950s, military rocket surgeons wanted to improve the effectiveness of the M1 Garand rifle and its .30-06 cartridge. One contender, more suitable for higher capacity box magazines was a modified .300 Savage design called the T65. While specs varied throughout development, it ended up as the earliest iteration of the 7.62x51mm NATO. But, as usual, the commercial market was more nimble, and Winchester launched the .308 Winchester in 1952.

It took the government until 1957 to have a cartridge and rifle hitting the barracks with similar specs.

7.62 vs .308 – Pressure

Here’s where some of the confusion comes into the picture. Maximum pressure numbers thrown around for the two calibers are often shown as 50,000 “psi” for 7.62 and 62,000 psi for .308. At first glance, that appears to be a big difference and a potential reason why folks might consider it unsafe to fire a “higher pressure” commercial .308 cartridge in a rifle built for 7.62x51mm NATO.

While commercial .308 ammo may have slightly higher pressure than 7.62x51mm NATO, it's really the brass and chambers that are the issues to understand.
While commercial .308 ammo may have slightly higher pressure than 7.62x51mm NATO, it's really the brass and chambers that are the issues to understand.

As with most things, the devil is in the details. I put that 50,000 “psi” number in quotes because it’s wrong, at least when shown with a pounds per square inch label at the end. That 50,000 number is actually an accurate representation of copper units of pressure or CUP. A far less precise way to measure pressure, the method literally relies on looking at how much little copper disks compress when you fire the gun. While there isn’t a consistent mathematical formula that equates CUP to pounds per square inch (PSI) across the board, the difference in this specific case is somewhere around 8,000. In other words, the maximum pressure for 7.62x51mm NATO is about 58,000 psi – not all that far from the 62,000 figure for commercial .308 Winchester.

As both loads are routinely proof tested at far higher levels, this 4,000 isn't a difference that's going to alter the trajectory of Michael Moore's daily Krispy Kreme run.

7.62 NATO vs .308 Win – Case thickness

Measuring the thickness of cartridge cases is kind of a pain, especially since I tend to mash them all up when trying to cut them in half with my Dremel tool. So, I took the shortcut to illustrate the difference. From my big bucket of .308 / 7.62 brass, I selected some representative samples of both commercial .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO brass and weighed them. I picked several of each and averaged the weights. I didn’t measure the cases because they’ve been fired, so that won’t tell me much other than the general size of the chamber from which they went bang.

  • Hornady .308: 169.6 grains
  • Winchester .308: 163.3 grains
  • Lake City 7.62x51mm NATO: 183.5 grains

That’s a significant difference! Thicker walls combined with similar exterior dimensions means less powder capacity and a lower “top end” and all else the same, lower pressure and velocity.

The thicker brass of 7.62 cases is a significant factor for the reason we'll discuss next.

7.62 NATO vs .308 Winchester – Headspace

Last but not least we get to the real difference. Military rifles for 7.62x51mm NATO can, and usually do, have longer chambers. In things like machine guns powered by ammo made all over the world, there’s got to be some slack for reliable feeding and operation with all that violence going on during the feeding and ejection process. The solution is to make the chamber headspace a bit longer. If you’re not familiar with headspace, think of it as the distance from the bolt face to the point in the chamber that stops forward motion of the cartridge case. If chamber headspace is too long for a cartridge, it will float back and forth in the chamber. If headspace is too small, the bolt will not close properly or will require excess force to close.

How much different is the headspace? The .308 Winchester chamber headspace is between 1.630 and 1.6340 inches (SAAMI Info). The 7.62x51mm NATO is between 1.6355 and 1.6405 inches. While the published numbers show about six-thousandths of an inch difference, it’s not unusual for the headspace in a surplus 7.62 rifle to be 10 or even 15 thousandths longer than that of a commercial .308. That doesn’t sound like a big deal, right up to the point where you fire thinner commercial brass in a long-chambered rifle. The brass will stretch, possibly enough to contribute to a dangerous case rupture. Doing the same thing with thicker military brass is no big deal and the way the system was designed. Thicker brass can handle some extra stretching into a longer chamber throat, so it's no big deal.

The solution to the question is to know your rifle and what its headspace really is. Only then will you know if it is safe to shoot commercial .308 Winchester ammo in a 7.62 chamber.

Figuring out if your headspace is safe is a fairly straightforward deal. You can order a set of .308 Winchester Go / No-Go headspace gauges. After removing extractors and/or ejectors as appropriate in order to remove all sources of tension, use the gauges to check the chamber size. The bolt should close easily on a Go gauge and not close on a No-Go gauge. A third type, a Field Gauge checks the maximum published chamber size. With some 7.62 rifles, you might find that the bolt closes on the No-Go gauge. As long as the bolt won't close on the Field gauge, you're still within maximum published limits.

The net-net-net

Technically speaking, in terms of specifications, there are differences, but mainly in the chambers of rifles designed to fire each cartridge. 7.62 brass is a bit thicker, and commercial .308 is sometimes loaded to slightly higher pressure, but other than that, the cartridges themselves are pretty much the same.

If you want to be ultra-safe and conservative, fire only 7.62x51m NATO in 7.62 chambered rifles and .308 Winchester in .308 rifles.

Next on the “risk” spectrum is the scenarios of using 7.62x51mm NATO ammo in a .308 chamber. In theory, you might run across ammo that’s particularly long. Ammo might not chamber at all or might require undue pressure to the chamber. That could result in dangerously high pressure. In reality, that would be really unusual. While 7.62 ammo could be significantly longer, that's a pretty rare thing, at least to a significant level, so most people don’t consider it a big deal to use 7.62 ammo in a .308 chambered rifle.

Where you need to be careful is using .308 Winchester commercial ammo in a 7.62x51mm NATO chambered rifle.

While most modern 7.62 chambers are probably fine as they tend to be cut closer to .308 dimensions, it’s always safest to know exactly what you have in terms of headspace. If your rifle has long headspace, stick to 7.62 NATO ammo – don’t use commercial .308.


Tom McHaleAbout

Tom McHale is the author of the Insanely Practical Guides book series that guides new and experienced shooters alike in a fun, approachable, and practical way. His books are available in print and eBook format on Amazon. You can also find him on Google+, Facebook, Twitter and Pinterest.

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Smelly Merchant
Smelly Merchant
1 year ago

I will take 45acp in a carbine instead. Sure I can’t shoot as far, But 75-100 yards it ill drop most anything.

Smelly Merchant
Smelly Merchant
1 year ago

I will take 45acp in a carbine instead. Sure I can’t shoot as far, But 75-100 yards it ill drop most anything.

Art Northrup, Jr.
Art Northrup, Jr.
1 year ago

That’s a silly comment, “comparing apples to oranges”. 7.62 x 51 NATO & .308 Winchester rifles are designed for accurate shots @ much longer distances, up to 700 yards, although a few people have hit targets 1000 yards away. At 75-100 yards, a 7.62 or .308 rifle shoots high — depending on the rifle, “point blank” range is 200-300 yards. And a bullet from either a 7.62 or .308 rifle hits a LOT harder @ 300 yards than a .45 ACP does @ 100.

Rich Ard
Rich Ard
1 year ago

Speaking of left-hand rifles…
After 50 years of fighting with right-hand weapons (I entered the Marine Corps in 1968), I just purchased a CZ Model 557, 30-06, LEFT-HAND!!!
I should have done this YEARS ago… Though selection was not that great.
The CZ is a fine weapon… Balanced, and just feels good in the hand. The fact that’s it gorgeous too doesn’t hurt.
Just thought I’d pass that on.
All the best gentlemen.

Alan
Alan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rich Ard

Richard Ard: As I too shot rifles left handed, being left eye dominant, found your comment interesting. I shot National,Match Course type competition for many years, first with a Garand, later on with bolt actions, mostly Model 70 Target Rifles. I used to get the occasional odd look shooting my Garand, especially respecting the rapid fire stages. Never had any trouble reloading with the Garand nor with Model 70’s, using stripper clips. I understand that CZ rifles are quite good, though I have no experience with them. As I expect you know, Savage has made their 110 series rifles in… Read more »

Matthew Wright
Matthew Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  Rich Ard

I found the biggest issue for using reloaded 7.62 cases in a 308 is that the brass, being thicker, requires neck-turning, not just resizing, to allow it to be fed in a rifle with a close-tolerance chamber without binding and causing pressure-spikes.

GeorgeFranklin
GeorgeFranklin
2 years ago

I prefer .308 and .243 for mid to long range. I like .223 and 5.56 but lets face it. The AR-15 ammo is a girls round.

Don P
Don P
1 year ago
Reply to  GeorgeFranklin

George, I usually select the caliber I use by what I am hunting. I would use .308 for game such as deer and .223 for smaller game. Most states do not allow .223 for deer since they consider it too small. Using a .308 on a rabbit would be, as John Wayne’s character said about the turkey Glenn Campbell’s character shot in True Grit, “too much gun”. By the way, why are you shooting girls?

Fred8512
Fred8512
1 year ago
Reply to  Don P

George, if you were in a combat situation, you will be glad to have 556, and or 223 ammo for your M16. 223 may be a little lighter in muzzle velocity, but still do what is necessary to take out an enemy target.

Shawn Stephenson
Shawn Stephenson
1 year ago
Reply to  Fred8512

And the 5.56 round has something called the titanic effect it breaks in half when it enters not the 223 . The 5.56 is Very effective

Eugene Kaptur
Eugene Kaptur
1 year ago

In 1970 I interrogated a VC wounded prisoner in the Tam Ky City Hospital, he had over 17 5.56 wounds in him, about 7 in the head, the back of his head was GONE…but he could TALK! Prior to him going into surgery I had about 15 minutes with him, where he told me that his unit was going to hit LZ ROSS in two days. He then went into surgery and but died a few minutes later. So much for the combat effectiveness of the 5.56mm round! I always carried a M3A1 grease gun in .45 caliber with a… Read more »

Rokflyer
Rokflyer
1 year ago
Reply to  GeorgeFranklin

I’m sure your intent was to sound experienced and “ sage “ like, but your comment was a sign of an inexperienced shooter, who trying to declare his bon afides. 223 was not even in topic, nor the 556. Your so lame, are your sure your even a shooter. The article was very informational, and correctly written.

Robert
Robert
1 year ago
Reply to  Rokflyer

Rokflyer:
Good punctuation can mean the difference between finding you’re nuts and finding your nuts. It must be disheartening to try to school another and not be able to spell or punctuate properly and while you may regard this statement as insouciant flotsam, please feel free to weep the tears of your bitterest woe for making yourself look like a retard while trying cut someone else down to your diminutive size.

“Life is hard but it’s much harder if you’re stupid.” – John Wayne

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert

“Life’s hard, it’s even harder if you’re stupid!” – John Wayne

The purpose of a quote is to repeat it EXACTLY as it was said.

Often times words and punctuation gets transformed in these forums when the author is using a cell phone.

Daniel Roberts
Daniel Roberts
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert

Well yeah there is that. How bout telling me if I can run a .308 rugger american hunter alongside an AK47 clone back and forth in a survival dependent situation and not have my daughters hand blown off based on my assumptions of facts when SHTF? That is what I seek to verify. So I hear you…and I’d help you find your nuts if that is a lingering problem, but I’m still interested in the expansive dialogue. In fact I’m thinking the engineering tolerances on a AK vs. the readiness to proffer arms from an AR platform puts an essentially… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago

A few thoughts and personal experience with factory loads, those being 1966/1967 FA Match caliber 30-06 v. carefully assembled hand loads, individual weighed charges using Sierra 180 grain Matchking bullets, and Military Match Brass, as I recall. At 600 yards the FA ammunitation outshot my hand loads. Otherwise, with the 308 in bolt action target rifles, I simply could not shoot 1000 yards. DIfferent story with the ’06. Except for very limited use of IMR 3031 in a Remington 40x Rangemaster, I used mostly IMR 4895. At one point, latched onto a bunch of WC846, which aside from a now… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan

Alan, I currently use IMR 4350 in both 30-06 and .308. The charges are from an old Speer reloading manual printed before lawyers. I shoot 55.0 grains under the Sierra 180 grain gameking or the pro-hunter spitzer in the 30-06, and it chronographs at about 2700 from a 22 inch Ruger M77MKII. From a 24 inch barrel, I get about 2770fps. The Gameking will stay supersonic to about 1200 yards at sealevel. Both bullets stay supersonic past 1000 yards here at the Front Range in Colorado, where the altitude is around 6,000 feet or higher above sea level. The .308… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton: Hope this finds you well. The rifling twist in my 40 X Remington Rangemaster was originally 1 in 10″. It was a stainless steel barrel, a bit north of 27″ long as I recall. When I rebarreled it, with a Douglas Chrome-moly Premium Air Gage barrel, it was also 1 in 10″ twist. Model 70’s in .308 caliber were 1 in 12″ originally. When rebarreled they were 1 in 10″ , also Douglas barrels, as above described, and 24″ long, x .750 – .800 diameter at the muzzle. A Model 70 so set up weighed, as memory serves, between… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan

I never encountered the left hand Mauser 98. I would have liked to find one, though. I think the pre-64 model 70 had one of the slickest actions made. I have used Shepherd scopes for about 30 years, now. I sent my first Shepherd in a few years ago because I was having trouble with the parallax on it, and wanted to see if it was me or the scope. They went through the whole scope, replacing o-rings, springs, risers and cleaning all parts, including purging and nitrogen filling the scope. (the scope had been bought in 1986) That was… Read more »

Alan
Alan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton: Sounds like the Shepherd outfit was something of a rare gem. I never came across any of their scopes, but they certainly sound like more than just fair dealers. My own experiences with Unertle are are similar. The vertical crosshair sheared or had broken or come loose, I discovered one day. They were no longer in the city of Pittsburgh, having moved north to Mars, in Butler County, not really much of a trip. I walked in with the sick telescope, and the lady at the desk looked it’s serial number up in a hand written ledger, that still… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton: For reason or reasons unknown or forgotten, perhaps never tried, honestly do not recall, while I used 4350 in the 30-06, I didn’t for the 308 Win. I generally used IMR 4895. Also WC 846, a surplus ball powder that worked very well for 200/300 yards. Muzzle flash was, at times, quite prominent, and the report varied from a sharp crack to a dull thud. That said, it produced quite accurate loads, and at 50 cents per pound, one could hardly complain about muzzle flash, which never bothered me in any case. Scorers did comment on it though. Never… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan

Alan: I just finished chronographing some new loads with IMR 4350 (new lot of powder) in my 30-06 using the same charge of 55.0 grains and the Sierra 180 grain Prohunter, and they clocked from 2580 to around 2610 fps. I’m going to try a different lot and see if I can get the velocities back up to around 2675 again. I think it’s just a variation due to being a different lot of powder. It still shoots to about the same point at 600 yards, with only a couple of inches more drop, though, and I killed an antelope… Read more »

roberto mervicini
roberto mervicini
1 year ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Morning Elton, the load of 55.0 IMR 4350 with a 180 grain tip,( Nosler partition and Speer BT ) is the best load in my 06 also ( Savage 110 L close to 40 yrs old, that was my first rifle in my collection ) still print inside one inch and some time on a good day 1/2 inch and key hole when i do bench at 100 yrd. I also use data of the old manuals on the proven rifles, concerning the up dated manuals at the beginning i follow them after if the fps are not there I… Read more »

MF Gamesta
MF Gamesta
2 years ago

Sam Bocetta of loadoutroom[.]com totally ripped off this article and pasted it as his own on Aug 27, 2017.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago

Mr. Romeu, I don’t doubt that at the Camp Perry matches you witnessed numerous malfunctions due to equipment and ammunition. Personally, I would expect that to happen, especially on the first day. I have no doubt that many of the competitors on the first day are competing for the first time, or are new to long range competition. Nor do they necessarily have the money to field top of the line equipment. I know I don’t. Most of the competitors aren’t there to win that match. They’re there for the experience of having shot just once in a national match.… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

I don’t know what Camp Perry this puke shot at. The nationals are held all summer long every year. He would most likely get his ass kicked or invited to leave or both.I’ve shot at Perry both as a civilian and as a Marine. As a civilian you can use what you want that meets the rules allow. As A Marine Corps shooter we used the weapons and ammunition issued. If not you at least you won’t shoot anymore. If you damage a rifle wwith your own loads and you don’t shoot anymore and end up with an NJP for… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Mr. Furbush: I know that at one time, the Army was hand loading the Sierra 240 grain MatchKing for some of the Nationals. I was told that they tried some in some of the M1A rifles and found that the bolt acceleration was too great, even though the pressures were in spec. I heard but can’t confirm that they cracked some of the receivers. I don’t know why anyone would use that heavy a bullet for 600 yard matches in the 7.62/308. I would think the velocity loss would outweigh any gain in B.C. I don’t know if they used… Read more »

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

@Mr. Jack a Furbish, by God if it wasn’t for you, the Marine Corps would never survive! I have the same advice for you that I gave to Mr. Elton P Green. you need to write it down your attitude a few notches and go back and reread exactly what I wrote or get some grade-schooler to teach in the English language. If you ever bother to crack a dictionary,, look up the definition of “primadonna”. You two would fit real nice into that category. You shoot from the mouth first before you site in your targets. In the Marine… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

How about you go fuck yourself. I doubt you’ve ever been to the Nationals let alone ever actually fired a live round on any organized rifle range. Your Piss poor attitude would get you kicked of all of the ranges I shoot on these days. I go out for state team try outs every year. I’ve only missed Camp Perry 4 times sense 1996. That was because of working as a contractor for Black Water security, in Iraq&Afghanistan. Twits like you would get a bullet by the 3rd time out. Most range PMI and SO Personal are there to assist… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Jack, that was a waste of a bunch of truly accurate and excellent descriptive words on someone who won’t learn anything from them. And he wouldn’t get shot the third time out, because he’d be sent home after the first time, provided his arrogant, self-important, undeserved superior attitude didn’t get him killed in first encounter; you know that. I saw lots of guys get their walking papers that way in Afghanistan, if they didn’t get killed by a local because they offended his honor. He wouldn’t have lasted a week. One of the locals at FOB Sharanna or Shank would… Read more »

Earl Rogers,Jr
Earl Rogers,Jr
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

I enjoyed reading your comments because some of the terminology that you use took me back to MCRD and Camp Matthew 1956. That’s all I have to say .
Thank you

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Mr. Rogers, thank you for your service. I wasn’t a Drill, but I was Infantry for 20 years, so my language could (and can) get colorful at times. I do also like Mr. Furbush, whom I think has a very colorful turn of phrase. It reminds me of my father’s description of General Patton, whom he met once in Germany at or around December of 1944, during the little unpleasantness over there. I consider his command of the english language to be truly masterful, and his comments to be timely and well earned. Thank you for your appreciative comment. Your… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Actually, Mr. Romeu, if it weren’t for men like Jack, the Marine Corps wouldn’t have survived. If you think what we did for a living was fun, watch ‘We Were Soldiers Once’. That is a pretty good depiction of close combat. Our job was to keep cohesion at the squad, platoon, company and battalion level. If we did it right, most of our men survived most of the time. If we did it wrong both they and we died. Sometimes we died anyway. Every single day we served in either the Army or the Marine Corps, we could be REQUIRED… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Hey there brother. Looks like both you and your brother and I soaked up a lot of the same swamp water and chewed the same dust. Like you two my job as a Recon Marine and PMC for Black Water was hunting and killing other men. Working in both the same box and the rock box I used a accurized SVD with my loads to kill Hadji and Russian & Romanian API rounds for other purposes. Your spot on about how US military people hang together in combat. That’s why we win and they lose. As advisers, military or contractor… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Jack, I did all mine in the Army. When I was contracting, I couldn’t get a shooter job, and had to work for KBR and Fluor as a mechanic. They wouldn’t even let me touch a rifle. I got to meet some of the Blackwater guys at Al Asad, I think. I met and did work for several SF and Seal units over there and in Afghanistan, but always on the FOB. I tried to get a job with some of the security groups, but I was too old. So I fixed their vehicles and cussed because I couldn’t do… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Jack, one of my friends (and brothers) retired from the Army National Guard a couple of years ago, and he was deployed to Afghanistan four or five times. He used an SVD over there, too. He liked the rifle(s) and said they were very effective. I won’t name him, because both rifles are currently in his arms room. How are you doing, by the way? I hope you’re well. May God keep You and Yours, brother.
Elton P. Green
SSG, USA . Inf. (Ret.)

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

I’d get a real chuckle watching a FuckTard like you his first day in a ground combat unit. You’d puke the first time I told you to saddle up. You’d probably Piss your panties when the bird lifted off the ground. You’d be shaking so hard you’d have all you could do to slap a magazine in your weapon when I gave the lock and load order. You’d shit your panties the first time a bullet snapped past your ears. If you actually managed to survive your first punch up with a real enemy contact I’d take a real interest… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Who the FUCK cares what you write about anything FuckTard? Nothing you flush out of that toilet under you’re nose is worth hearing. A shit bird like you ain’t never said word one worth reading.

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
1 year ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Just WHO the he’ll are you referring to and under WHAT pretense?

And if you and Mr. Green hadn’t noticed, this entire article is in regards to the differences between the 308 and the 7.62 rounds. Nothing more and nothing less. And if you two jokers are this sharp on a range, you two would be the most dangerous out there because you have no ability to FOCUS on whatever the SUBJECT MATTER IS!

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton: My first experience shooting at 1000 yards was in the early ’70’s, with a personally owned Winchester Garand. I had done reasonably well the previous day at 600 yards, this was not at The Nationals, but rather at one of the Ohio Rifle and Pistol Association matches held during the summer at Camp Perry. Making a long story short, I had fired 4 straight misses, calling for marks, when I wasn’t even hitting the target. The line officer whom I knew slightly was about to disqualify me, asked exactly what I was doing. I was about to offer a… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan

Alan, the Army Manual for Sniper Training And Employment does that, too. It gives the bullet drop at sea level for the M118 Special Ball in clicks of adjustment per 100 meters for the M21’s open sights and for the issued auxiliary sights for the M24 system out to 1000 meters. I think the problem you may have had with the 7.62X51 Lake City Match at 1000 yards is velocity. The -06 has about 150 to 200 fps on most 7.62 loads. The Special Ball is rated for about 2550fps, where the -06 173 grain or 168 grain match ammunition… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton: Being an old, worn out civilian, I’m not familiar with the manual you mentioned. Also, the military model numbers you mentioned soft of confuse me. In general. I thought that the recent military sniper rifles all revolved around the Remington 700 Action, with special barrels, stocks and triggers. Scope sights too. Is that correct. My own personal battery was mostly post 1964 Model 70 Winchesters, calibers 30-06 and 308 Winchester/7.62MM NATO. I did have one Remington 40X Rangmaster, which was probably the most accurate 30 caliber rifle I ever handeled. As I shot left handed, the Model 70 was… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Alan, the M25 is an upgraded version of the M21 or accurized M14. The M24 is a bolt gun, made on the Remington action, either the 700 or the 40X action, with a Douglas barrel, I believe. The manual is a US Army pub. from around 1990 or so, can’t tell you exactly, because my son in law is currently using it to train Squad Marksmen in his Cav unit at Ft. Carson, and I won’t get it back from him for a few months. Its kind of the Ranger Handbook for Snipers. The scope on the M24 is normally… Read more »

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

@Elton P. Green, You might want to go back and reread exactly what I wrote and readjust your attitude and answering me because you didn’t pay a damn bit of attention of what I said or either you just flat ass don’t understand the English language?

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

I did read your article. I thoroughly understood your article. I also understood the attitude conveyed by the tone of your article. I understood your arrogance, your lack of charity, your self importance and your belief in your personal superiority over everyone who was shooting at the range at the time, with the exception of the female competitors. I expect you were condescending toward them also but didn’t admit it. (note the larger than 4 letter words here-see, I do both read and understand the english language) Also, the comments you made to SFC (ret.) Jack Furbush were unwarranted, without… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Who the FUCK would ever care what you say? On every one of these forums there’s always one turd that has to run his suck hole about things he knows nothing about. In both my military and lawenforcement career I always took am interest in making them suffer until they pulled thire head out of their ass and got with the program or I could get rid of them

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Gunnery Sargent Furbush, I just realized I might have insulted you by referring to you as SFC. As you know, E-7 in the Army is a Sergent First Class, and I didn’t think about you being a Marine. So I do apologize for that. And thank you for your service. I hope you have many more years pulling triggers. From your comrade in arms:
Elton P. Green SSG, USA., Inf. (Ret.)

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
1 year ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

@Elton P. Green, 1) YOU SAID: “I don’t doubt that at the Camp Perry matches you witnessed numerous malfunctions due to equipment and ammunition. Personally, I would expect that to happen, especially on the first day.” “I” NEVER SAID it was the first day of the matches… “I” said MY first day. I got their sometime during the last 3 weeks and was made a Range Safety Officer, (Watching over 7-10 shooters) half-way through day 1 (Unheard of) and was made a Block Officer by the 3rd day, (Watching over 5 blocks of 7-10 shooters) NEVER heard of. To be… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Elton Green 11:10 PM (1 hour ago) to comments Well, I’m sorry to hear about your knees. I know exactly how that feels, since mine have been bone on bone since about the year 2000. I just got the left one replaced this May, and am due to replace the right one next March. As to your comments: 1. (you’ll notice that I can number things, too.) Good for you. The NRA made you a block officer. I’m sure you accepted and then operated with due humility. Your original comments and this one all show how amazingly humble you must… Read more »

lbrac
lbrac
2 years ago

I would tend to use water capacity (w.c.) of the case versus weight to compare differences in interior case dimensions. This does not indicate where differences in internal case dimensions are located, i.e., head thickness, wall or neck thickness. But it would indicate that cases with the same outside dimensions, but with less w.c., would have higher pressure if loaded with the same amount of the same propellant, and with the same bullet loaded to the same overall cartridge length.

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  lbrac

You might want try using a fine grained sand or powder like cement and utilize that method of measurement rather than the water because you will end up leaving beads of water / weight. on the inside of the casing with any kind of liquid.

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Gregory:

Re your concern over drops of water remaining in cartridge cases will heating water checked brass to 180-200 degrees F. which will cook off any remaining water harm the brass for reloading?
In my experience the answer is that it won’t or at least I never experienced any reloading problems with heat dried brass. Note, I was careful with temperature.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  lbrac

Ibrac, you probably know this, but water is the method used by the manufacturers to measure case capacity. That’s because water is the basis for volume and weight in the metric system. One cubic centimeter of water weighs 1 gram. When you weigh the case, you weigh it empty, first. Then you fill it with water and subtract the filled case weight from the empty case. Then you convert the difference in grams to grains and you have the exact maximum case capacity. If you use any other substance, you need to know its average density. Sand won’t have the… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago

What’s the difference between .308 Winchester and 7.62 x 51 MM NATO cartridges. Chamber pressure and small but interesting dimensional differences. Take a careful look at standard cartridge drawings, paying particular attention to demensional differences.

Michael
Michael
2 years ago

I’ve recently purchased a Springfield M1A and their included manual states the rifle will fire either .308 or 7.62 as long as it is quality factory ammo manufactured to SAAMI/NATO standards.

In that case, what are the benefits/trade-offs between the two calibers? Price? Accuracy? Availability? Why should I chose one over the other for my M1A?

*I’ve purchased the scout/squad variant – I do not intend it be a long range/precision engagement rifle. Moderate range consistency/reliability are my priorities.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Michael

Try to stay away from the cheap (especially the steel cased) 7.62, as it is not always within tolerances. If you wish to use surplus, stay with Israeli ROK or US surplus, which will be within NATO specs. It won’t be as accurate as the commercial ammunition. But it will be noticeably cheaper which may make it desirable as practice ammo. Commercial ammo is generally more accurate than the surplus ammunition due to the commercial manufacturers’ closer accuracy requirements. Remember, most milspec ammo is designed to have about a 3″ dispersion from a test barrel at 100 meters, because it… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Match Ammunition, if you can find any, was usually quite accurate, though there were lot to lot and rifle to rifle variations. Also, primers were not crimped, saving a bothersome operation for those who reload.

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan

You won’t notice much difference between both rounds. Military 7.62 rounds will probably have a bit more ass to them and hit the target harder. Military 7.62 NATO ammo used to sell for $0.015 per round back in better days. Now it’s 3 times more when you can find it, but still cheaper than commercial ammo. I like my reload for training and play or compition, I’ve got 20 mags loaded with 4 A.P. 1 Traser, the standard military load out except I use A.P. instead of ball ammo. I also keep 5 mags loaded with tracker for nights. This… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Alan

Firing real Match grade ammo in a service or combat rifle is a waste of money. You won’t notice the difference. Match ammo is designed to be used in a Match rifle. The two together will produce the desired result. Used speratly not so much. From a long time CMP shooting I’ve seen a lot of this with less than satisfactory results

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

I think that depends on the service rifle. I have both M1s from the CMP and a 1903A3. I have shot match grade ammunition and service grade ammunition in both of them, and group sizes with match grade ammunition tends to be 1/2 or less the size of service grade ammunition. I also have a civilian HK91, which is an original from around 1975. It also likes match grade ammunition much better than service grade, and I shoot both .308 Winchester and 7.62 X 51mm NATO in it. It feeds and cycles all that I’ve fed it except some poorly… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Michael

The difference between the .308 Winchester ammunition and the 7.62 × 57mm ammunition is the brass The military round has a thicker case head and have a crimped primer and thicker shoulder and neck. It’s made to survive military combat as well as for both rifle and machine gun use. And is sealed against weather and water damage.As a result the interior of the case has a smaller diameter and will hold less power than a .308 Winchester case. Also keep in mind that 7.62 NATO ammunition is manufactured with both boxer and burdan primers. Some of the military brass… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Mr. Furbush, you are correct on all counts as far as I can tell, except for the 7.62 typo. And I really dislike Burdan primed brass. The military brass like Lake City was designed for machine guns, so it was made thicker at the casehead and the web. It is designed to withstand being chambered and extracted by bolts and bolt carriers which exert more force than a semi-automatic rifle, and the primer crimp is done for the same reason. No machine gun crew can afford malfunctions due to head separation or failure to extract or a loose primed jamming… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

You’re correct good sir typo 7.62X51mm. I’ve noticed a small difference in accuracy in my 03A3 with match 06 ammo. Most M1 and M14 service grade rifles won’t show much with G.I. match rounds. I was a Recon Marine scout sniper. I ended up in STA PLATOON in GW1 The 2 weapons I was issued at the time the M40A1 for day and the M25 with a suppressor and night scope. For night work. I actually preferred the M25 for both. The M40A1 is a fine weapon and I have my own that I built myself. I also have my… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Sorry to hear about your son, sir. May God grant that you both meet at Jesus’ feet in the time to come. God bless you and yours and deep and abiding thanks for your service and sacrifices. Your fellow soldier:
Elton P. Green, SSG. USA. Inf., (Ret.)

Roy Richardson
Roy Richardson
2 years ago

Dear friends,
Let me interject some uncommon sense especially if you use your weapon(s) for self or home defense and are ever involved in an shooting incident. I hope for your sake you were using the exact ammunition stamped on the barrel. If not, you are going to jail. You also have a better chance of avoiding jail if you using commercial, non mil spec ammunition and one that is not a reload. Consult your attorney for law specific to your state.

CH
CH
2 years ago
Reply to  Roy Richardson

Wtf are you babbling about? Been reading too many gun magazines. Back up this statement with actual case files that show a pattern or stop propagating bullshit.

DaveW
DaveW
2 years ago
Reply to  CH

CH – I can not speak for the comments you responded to, however, from a law enforcement and judicial point of view, the laws can be interpreted in a number of ways (and have been). They can be read loosely or very precisely. It all depends on how far the police and the prosecutors want to push things. Here in California, for example, the Moonbeam Cartel is absolutely anti-gun (except for themselves). We know which way the wind blows if we run afoul of them. They will push things for all they are worth if they think they can get… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  DaveW

I spent 33 in lawenforcement, 7 of them LAPD. I’ve only seen ammo became a factor in one incedent. Prosacuters are overwhelmed with the cases they can win. They won’t file on bullshit like that. I’ve seen them kick back murder 1 cases that should have been just go through the motions. We didn’t have a Priest and 12 nuns for eye whiteness and these animals are back on the street. The only thing they pay attention to is if the gunshot wound(s) were the actual cause of death. You have to have done something that you lied to the… Read more »

Sam
Sam
2 years ago
Reply to  CH

Don’t be a wise ass CH. This man knows what he’s talking about. Do your on research. I’m a retired litagation claims specialist.

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Roy Richardson

BULLSHIT!!! What law school did you not graduate from? The only reason you need to make sure you use the ammunition recommended by the manufacturer is so the weapon doesn’t blow up and kill you. Any ammunition even you’re own reloads is acceptable. The use of reloaded ammunition only voids you’re warrinty. It doesn’t violate any laws

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Roy Richardson

What law school did you not graduate from? What exactly makes you qualified to give legal advice? Guys like you are foolish. You read these fairy tales in gun rags and the internet written by wanna be combat instructors that try to pass their BULLSHIT as actual training.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Roy Richardson

Sir, your comments are appreciated and probably accurate where self defense is concerned if you live in New York, California, Maryland or the state of Massachusetts, or some of the other Peoples’ Democratic States, but I personally don’t carry or use M1s or M14s or M1as for self defense. They just don’t fit in a holster well, they are hard to conceal, and you get funny looks when you carry them down the street. For the house, i use a revolver, a semi-auto pistol, a shotgun or a lever action rifle in .44 Magnum, loaded with .44 Specials. That way… Read more »

Chris B
Chris B
2 years ago

Blimey fellas. I cannot disagree that ordinarilly you should shoot what the rifle is made for if you are using factory ammo, but surely IF you are developing a load for hand loading you simply check your FL resized cases are to spec and work up a safe load depending on the manufacturers data. I have not read all of the comments on here so if I am repeating anyones comments, I apologize, however, I have not seen tight bore mentioned. Way back when in the UK, the NRA used to issue 7.62 NATO ammo for some competitions. Much of… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris B

Some target rifles were done that way here, too. Two thousandths of an inch shouldn’t appreciably increase pressures as long as the bullet isn’t contacting the lands to begin with, but it might, and the bullet diameter you show is an example of how ammunition made by many of the other NATO countries was made out of spec. originally. That’s why the chambers on battle rifles and machine guns are made with slightly greater head space and SLIGHTLY larger chambers than commercial rifles (with the exception of precision or sniper rifles). But all American and German rifles will still pass… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Chris B

I’ve seen tight chambers cause extraction problems, but I’ve only seen the issue of tight bores in the difference between Russian and Finnish mosin nagant rifles. The Russian rifles have .310 – 311 bores. Some of the Finnish rifles have .308 bores. They got hot after just a few rounds. Non ever blew up that I ever heard of or used. The Finns switched to the .311 size bore to slove the problem. They made use of all the captured rifles and ammo

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Jack, Europe is a tad different, as I’m sure you know. An example of different bores for the same cartridge that I remember from being over there is the 8X57 Mauser, which in some of its earlier versions had a bore of .318, and then went to .323 bore size. Generally, you only see this in some of the m1895 or older mausers, but it is there. Also, a modern example is the first few production runs of the Mini 14 in 7.62X39, which had a .308 diameter bore. They still shot the Russian ammo just fine, though. Elton P.… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Your correct about Europe. I’ve only used a German G3
Brit. L1A1. The only target rifle I’ve ever used is the Envoy. A fine rifle. I’ve owned several Enfield #3 & #4 rifles. No issues there. I own a Gee 98 made in 1899. It has a 318 bore. I have to shoot my loads in it. The rest of my Mausers are. 323. I remember the issue with the early Mini 14. The had extraction problems because of over chamber pressure. I’m not sure how they corrected this

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

Mr. Furbush, I think that Ruger changed the bore diameter to .310 or .311. I do know that the problem was corrected.
Elton P. Green SSG USA, Inf. (Ret.)

Mic Stone
Mic Stone
2 years ago

Several ammunition manufacturers have ammo marked 308/7.62×51. Apparently they need to be corrected by Gregory, according to him, you can’t do that. I have read this thread over and found nowhere where he shows any researched facts and figures. Guess if you belong to a range and can shoot makes you know all and can disrespect and insult anyone who has a legitimate question. Glad he is not at my range. All I see is Gregory being an ass.

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Mic Stone

WTF are you talking about? Who was there you or him? In 45 years of competition shooting I’ve seen a lot of things that ain’t supposed to be so but the are so. I’ve never personally seen this situation, but European target rifles are different in many ways from US rifles. I’ve shot thousands of R.D. Green British 7.62 NATO ammo. It used to be around and cheep just like Portuguese 7.62. Both shoot well and are very consistent. Pulling a few rounds of each apart there was very little difference between loads. I wouldn’t call it match ammo but… Read more »

Cpl. Stephen Carter US Army Ret.
Cpl. Stephen Carter US Army Ret.
1 year ago
Reply to  Mic Stone

Someone probably needs to start contacting all of the manufacturer’s. Who are now selling rifles that they are putting in the description under caliber 7.62 Nato / .308. I had never really given it any thought before the 2017-18 big game hunting season. I called my state department of wildlife service (fish & game) about my lifetime disabled Veterans sportsmen license.They were very helpful and answered all my questions. They then asked me what weapon I was planning to use when I said an AR-15 style 5.56 they immediately that it’s illegal to hunt any big game with anything under… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago

Thank you for your service. The .308 is a good choice. I bought one for my son in law who is currently Active duty in the Cav at Ft. Carson. What state are you in? I’m in Colorado, and any centerfire rifle is legal as long as it is .243 or above. I can legally hunt any big game with a .243 Winchester if I wanted to. I don’t, but I could. I do know it is illegal to use FMJ ammunition here. I use a 35 Whelen for elk, with a back-up rifle in .300 winmag or 30-06. The… Read more »

Art
Art
2 years ago

I just bought a PSA PA-10 and it says 308 on the barrel. That’s great except I reload and I buy once fired 7.62×51 brass that has been cleaned, resized, and primmer pockets reamed. I’m assuming that reloading them to 308 spec’s should work?

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

On January 28, 1986, the NASA shuttle orbiter mission STS-51-L and the tenth flight of Space Shuttle Challenger broke apart 73 seconds into its flight, killing all seven crew members.

I’m relation, that space shuttle, “should have worked”? Then again if you want to buy a brand new Mercedes then run to Wal-Mart and swap out the tires, for whatever I’m-godly reason? Have at it! Personally? I would rather spend the extra 12 cents per round that you might be saving and buy factory fresh ammo. But hey? I’m funny that way!

babara
babara
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

After sizing the brass, the 7.62 will still have thicker walls, meaning less space for powder to expand, meaning potentially greater pressures. Unless you have the tools and safety equipment necessary for measuring pressure, I’d recommend using the ammo marked on the barrel.

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  babara

In reloading military brass, which is thicker walled than commercial brass, use the Starting Load in whichever manual you fancy, and work up SLOWLY from there, say 0.5 grain increments..

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan

I forgot one thing about milspec brass (or any .308/7.62X51 brass) when re-sizing. Don’t full-length size it so far down that you set the shoulder back. If you are sizing it for a bolt action rifle, size it just enough to get a tight fit in the chamber. That’s what is called a ‘crush fit’. If you are going to shoot it in a semi automatic, size it to fit slightly snug (very slightly snug). There should be a very slight resistance when manually closing the bolt, but complete lock up. If you size it too far down the casing,… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

Ignore Mr. Romeu. The answer is yes. But remember to stay on the low side and work up. The brass is thicker so pressures rise a little quicker. Your rifle is rated for 62,000 PSI. Stay at about 56,000 PSI or 47,000 CUP and you’re all right when using the .308 data. Start about 10% below the maximum load in the load manual and work up. Check your brass for signs of scuffing on the face, and primer flattening. Measure each of your test cases with a caliper and compare them with once fired commercial brass. Work up in half… Read more »

Mark
Mark
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Elton P Green, thank you for replies and your service. Helping us who have legitimate questions in a respectful and professional manner is much appreciated.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I hope this did help you. If you get a Speer or Lee reloading manual, either one (Both is a good idea) will give you step by step instructions for working up safe loads. And you’re welcome. I’d serve again tomorrow if they’d let me.

Robin
Robin
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Thank you for your valuable advice. I appreciate your respectful and kind reply as well. Reading your kind of comments is one way for others to learn rather than be frustrated and turned away having learned nothing. Additionally, I thank you for your service to our country, sir.

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

I found Lyman manuals useful too. As a general comment, whichever manual or manuals strike your fancy, spend some time reading them BEFORE actually reloading. By the way, I used once fired LC Match Brass picked up at Quantico. No fired brass left on the firing lines. Fired brass went into cans behind the firing line, or into whatever bag or container civilian shooters like myself brought. I never found the use of small base dies necessary. As by then, I was shooting bolt action rifles, Match Brass that had been fired once in Match Grade M-14’s used by Marine… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Alan, Lyman loading manuals are very good. One of the things I like about them is that they aren’t proprietary because Lyman doesn’t produce either the powders or the bullets used. I currently use their cast bullet reloading manual.
SSG Elton P. Green USA Inf. (ret.)

Jason
Jason
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

What about bolt action rifles? Savage 308. Can it handle a 7.62?

Cliff
Cliff
2 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Yes, but not accurately. I have an older savage 110 in 308. The bolt is tighter with certain rounds, and fine with others. (Same batch, Norinco 7.62×51) My savage was very picky with ammo to get MOA accuracy. Only one so far is Barnes TTSX 168. With the Norinco ammo, it fires safely, had one split neck out of 100 rounds. But asides from controlling trigger flinch, it isn’t much use. At 100 yards, I can barely hit a 14″ target. I am going to try brass Mil Surp from Austria this weekend. But considering all millsurp is lighter projectiles,… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Cliff

The quick answer to that is no. The 147 grain boat tail has a much lower Ballistic Coefficient. As a result, it has a poorer trajectory at distance. The 165 grain boat tail has a much higher B.C. and the 167 and 168 grain match bullets have B.C.’s in the range of .480 or so. Trajectory at distance is much flatter. More importantly, wind drift is noticeably less. What the match grade round loses in initial velocity it gains in retained velocity down-range. Accuracy is another issue, but it depends on the manufacturer, lot # of the ammunition, and whether… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Cliff

I’m going to correct part of my April 12, 2018 answer. The answer is actually yes and no (but more no than yes). At ranges out to about 500 yards (more or less) the 147 grain round will have a fairly close trajectory to the .308 Win. match 168 grain ammunition. Accuracy will be notably poorer as noted in the original comment, unless you get a lot number that was manufactured to closer tolerances, which can happen. For instance, when a sniper didn’t have Lake City Match ammo, he was instructed by the manual to test various lots of ammunition… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Jason

Yup. Bolt guns will run with any safe load as long as you’re rifle doesn’t have head space issues. If you’re using new brass you only have to neck size it. It will fire form to the rifles chamber. Of you want to use once fired military brass you’ll need to fill length resize it for the first load and neck size for the rest. You’ll probably get 10 to 12 loads out of each case. I’ve actually gotten more

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

You’re fine with military brass. It’s a bit more work but often can be had at cheeper price. The exterior dimensions are the same. You’ll find the military brass won’t hold as much powder because the brass is thicker. This makes the interior smaller. It’s not really an issue unless you’re trying to get a maximum load of some type. Make sure you resize you’re brass properly. A little extra case lube a run it through the die 4 times turing it a quarter turn each time if you’re using it in a gas gun. In a bolt gun it’s… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

Unlike some here, I will actually answer your (very reasonable) question. Yes, they will work. The external dimensions of the brass are EXACTLY the same as .308 Winchester. As a matter of fact, Winchester copied the round so that they could introduce it as a commercial round. The differences are in the case wall thickness and the case web thickness at the case head. Because the brass is thicker it has a quicker pressure curve, though. You need to start at least 3 grains under the maximum charge for a .308 Winchester load and work up from there. Because it… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Art

Again, I’ll answer your question instead of implying you are an idiot, which you are not. I also reload military once-fired brass. If its been resized to .308 Win dimensions, it should be fine. (308 Win, and US 7.62X51 have exactly the same outside dimensions, as Winchester just copied the military round.) Just chamber some empty brass in your rifle first. This will tell you if it fits the chamber because if the bolt will lock up, its sized correctly. Then reload it normally, working up from an 85% charge of your favorite powder, projectile and primer, 5 or 10… Read more »

Greg Yardape
Greg Yardape
2 years ago

No, Greg does not live overseas. He belongs to a rifle club and knows what he’s talking about, and also, he is an excellent marksman ‼️

Trinidad
Trinidad
2 years ago

Gregory was very helpful on providing you all on some facts and figures that took some time to research. I appreciate the time and effort it took. There is always gonna be several out there that do not agree on your views and research, Why i dont know, like viper said use the ammo that is recommended for that weapon and be safe brothers. army vet.

Cracker
Cracker
2 years ago

Gregory Romeu, you seem to be a “internet troll” that pounces on anyone and anything that can make you feel smart in your own eyes, I’m here to help you, you are being a jerk, your life is missing something don’t sit at home and worship yourself. Back away from the computer and go look in the mirror. We hate your attitude here. Please try to educate yourself in basic kindness, maybe read the Bible. We would gladly welcome you if you would try to be a bit nicer. You do have a good heart inside you, feed it please.… Read more »

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Cracker

Obviously you have no understanding or idea as to what a TROLL actually is? Me? Not are troll by any means, I just loathe ignorance and stupidity, especially when the ANSWERS are bore right into the barrels of the firearms these people are in posession of. If you took the time to read deep into the text of those I responded to you would find most should not possess a firearm.

There is no place for niceties once a trigger is pulled. And you with a name like, “Cracker”?

Stacy Smith
Stacy Smith
2 years ago

“LONG 7.62 RARE”? Depends on the source! ESPECIALLY when buying milsurp ammo. I recently bought close to 500rds of belt pieces from a guy that bought them at an auction that I disintegrated by hand and I’m averaging about 30% that’s too long for my magazine. Sometimes “military surplus” is code for “military JUNK”! I should’ve known better because I have inside knowledge! For about a year I was assigned a post as Assistant Barracks Mgr. Anytime we had worn out or just plain UNSERVICEABLE furniture it was sent to DRMO (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office). They scrap or resell… Read more »

Rich Lando
Rich Lando
2 years ago

Good read but one big mistake. All else being equal a thicker case will have higher pressure. Less volume and the same amount of powder equals higher pressure.

J Daniels
J Daniels
2 years ago
Reply to  Rich Lando

Buy wouldn’t a 308 case with a heavier bullet, with more powder to achieve longer and more effective ballistic performance generate higher pressures?

RichLando
RichLando
2 years ago

Good read but there’s a critical mistake. All else being the same, a thicker case will generate a higher pressure. A smaller volume with the equal amount of powder equals higher pressure. Is a standard .308 a compressed load? That would depend on the powder density and I’m sure all .308 are not compressed. From Berger on COAL and Bullet seating depth. “The primary effect of loading a cartridge long is that it leaves more internal volume inside the cartridge. This extra internal volume has a well-known effect; for a given powder charge, there will be less pressure and less… Read more »

Randy
Randy
2 years ago
Reply to  RichLando

The only thing I can say is that you may be overlooking quite a bit in that little phrase “all else being the same”. Most hand loading data from Hornady, Nosler, and Winchester state that there are two different sets of loads, one for .308 and one for 7.62, and the reason given is the lesser room inside the 7.62. There is no doubt at all that 7.62 is done to a slightly lower pressure. It is not “same powder”.

RichLando
RichLando
2 years ago
Reply to  Randy

You didn’t read what I wrote, I know 7.62 and .308 are different in nearly the same way as .223 and 5.56 are, except 5.56 is the one with higher pressure. Quote from article “Thicker walls combined with similar exterior dimensions means less powder capacity and a lower “top end” and all else the same, lower pressure and velocity.” This is incorrect, misleading and possibly dangerous. A smaller case all else being the same, i.e. a .308 load in a Lake City 7.62 case vs. a .308 case, with the same bullet, same weight and type of powder, same primer… Read more »

Randy
Randy
2 years ago
Reply to  RichLando

Well, you are entirely entitled to your understanding of my reply. But I quoted you. My statement is concerned with your insistence that you would use the same powder charge on the 7.62 as you would .308. IF you did this, the pressure would be higher, yes. BUT loading specs from Hornady and the like state NOT to do this.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  RichLando

Mr. Lando is correct. If you are using the same powder in both casings (ie: Nosler 308 Win. and Lake City Match, for example) the Lake City brass will have a higher mean pressure when charged with the same type and amount of powder as the Nosler commercial casing. Also, this is true whether the load is compressed or if there is some space inside the cartridge. Also, some of the powders used in military (US) 7.62 are: IMR 4895, IMR 3031, Winchester 748, H4895 and currently, IMR4064. This is just a list of a few of the powders used… Read more »

Ed McCourt
Ed McCourt
2 years ago

Viper, is right shoot what’s on the barrel !!

Stop trying to ne ballistic GURU’S!
Capt Ed McCourt USMC(ret)

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Ed McCourt

OOH RAH, Skipper!

Tim
Tim
2 years ago

Windham Weaponry SRC R16SFST-308
Semi Automatic Rifle
.308 Winchester and Accepts 7.62mm NATO
16.5″ Medium Profile Barrel
4150m Chrome Moly Vanadium 11595E Steel Barrel
I am looking at this rifle..you will note it says it will accept 7.62 NATO ammo is it safe to fire it then.
From the article a bove you seem to say so. Being that I have served and can get NATO 7.62 I would like a definite answer, if you please

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Tim, 1) A blind monkey smoking a crack-pipe can get 7.62 NATO ammo. 2) If you served, in WHAT did you serve? And if so, then WHY didn’t teach you to put into the weapon that which is marked on the weapon? You wouldn’t put a,5.56 ball round in that chamber, would you? In other words, if it SAYS “7.62 NATO” on the barrel, then OBVIOUSLY you would use, “7.62 NATO” ammo.

Now, go ahead and explain to us all the special privledges YOU have in getting 7.62 NATO ammo, just because you served?

Ken Avin
Ken Avin
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

@Gregory Romeu
Jesus, you are a DICK!!!!! Tim was just asking a question. No reason to be a spiteful prick about it!!!
It’s people like YOU that are ruining the world for the “good people”!!!!

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Ken Avin

Ken? Back away from the computer and get off the internet before your mother catches you.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Yeah, if you could get a good price on those, I’ll take 50 cases please

Andrew
Andrew
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Gregory… Perhaps he is not in the US? Maybe he lives in the EU or somewhere else where firearms and ammo are severely restricted… Every think about that possibility genius?

James Higginbotham
James Higginbotham
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Gregory.
let me ask you a question.
i have a FN/FAL in 7.62 nato and that’s what i shoot in it.
but i also have a Savage Model 99 that says 308 caliber.
so i’m assuming i wouldn’t be able to shoot the 7.62 in my Savage due to the chamber not being as long as my FN/FAL.
is this right?
and thanks for any answer.
and i served as a Marine from 1960 to 1971.
and yes, a Vietnam vet.

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago

Siempre Fi brother. 76 to 98 for me. Retired at E7. Either round will work in both of you’re rifles

James Higginbotham
James Higginbotham
2 years ago
Reply to  Jack A Furbush

i know it’s bee awhile lol.
but thatns for the ansrew.
Semper Fi.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago

James, Mr. Furbush is correct. Your Savage 99 will shoot either round, as long as the 7.62X51 NATO is of good manufacture. A check for this is to chamber the 7.62 round. Since your rifle is not a semi-automatic, you can perform a function check and if the round chambers and the action locks up properly, it will shoot the ammunition. And thank you for your service, sir. I am glad you got out alive. May God Bless you for a job well done.
SSG Elton P. Green, US Army Infantry, (Ret.)

thefixer
thefixer
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

The only definitive answer is to have a professional gunsmith determine the exact head space of the rifle. As mentioned in the article, a rifle that is chambered for .308 tends to have a headspace that is tighter, and here you want to think smaller. A rifle that has been chambered for 7.62 USUALLY has a longer headspace due to the multitude of different factories making this ammo around the world. The 7.62 NATO round has a thicker wall and is made to have a lower pressure. .308 is made with a thinner wall and higher pressure. So, sometimes when… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  thefixer

TheFixer is correct as to the information on the 7.62X51 NATO round. He is also correct about getting your rifle’s headspace checked. If the rifle is headspaced correctly, and the ammunition is within Army Ordinance specifications, you can shoot it in the rifle. A way to check the ammunition for proper specs is to hand-chamber it in your rifle and check to see that the bolt has gone completely into battery. If it has. the round should be safe to fire. But you have an expensive rifle. I wouldn’t use cheap surplus ammo in it just because it will work… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Tim

Tim, from one vet to another, yes you can use both. The rounds are supposed to be interchangeable. You will want to be careful with the country the ammunition comes from, though. Some countries have poor to no quality control, thus their ammunition is not made to Nato specs. Stay with IMI or Western European ammunition, notably British, German, Austrian Polish and Belgian surplus. These countries have good quality control procedures in place. Don’t buy anything loaded before about 1980. Also, check it to ensure it will chamber properly in your rifle. If it won’t, break it down, dump the… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
1 year ago
Reply to  Tim

Ignore Mr. Romeu’s comment. It is safe to fire NATO ammo in the SRC. Just make sure that you use ammunition from good sources, like IMI, British Radway Green, or German ammunition or US sources. Their ammunition is inspected and kept within close tolerances. Don’t use Chinese or Russian ammunition. It tends to be out of specs and can be really bad for your weapon. Different lots can be too long, too short, or just poorly made. Stay away from the steel cased ammo, too. Cliff’s experience with Norinco ammunition is not unusual. It is poorly made and quality control… Read more »

Charles
Charles
2 years ago

Myself, I would be wary of using spent .308 brass for reloading purposes unless I knew exactly what rifle it had been fired through prior to ending up on the range floor. The stretch of .308 brass fired through unknown 7.62×51 chambers could result in empties that -might- head separate without warning due to the “headspace stretch” -ALL- occurring at the base end of the case and NOT at the shoulder/body length area (which would happen in carefully fireformed brass). All those reloading articles explaining when to discard rifle cases due to the displacement of brass from the base area… Read more »

J.D. Smith
J.D. Smith
2 years ago

I’ve read lots of articles on this subject. And I like to ask the same question and see how many different answers I get from each article. OK here it goes-I have an M1A loaded with .308NM (National Match) stamped on the barrel. So what can I shoot? Some people say of course you can use both and some people say .308 is too hard on the auto loading mechanism, it’s strictly for bolt action. Some people say since it’s stamped .308 on the barrel it’s chambered for .308 and that ammo works better in that rifle. Now I’ve only… Read more »

Randy
Randy
2 years ago
Reply to  J.D. Smith

The simple answer here is that the BARREL is marked .308NM. It means that the barrel has been made to a certain degree of accuracy. It does NOT mean that you can or should change calibers to the 7.62 NATO. It’s still a .308, man. You really want to jam 7.62 into what must be a fairly expensive barrel to start? Even if you get the round to cycle, please think of what you are doing to the chambering. M1A NM means that has been set up for .308 target shooting or sniper activity. If you have an M1A that… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Randy

WYF Is your problem? Military weapons issued to troops in military service are fed issue ammunition. The military caliber is marked on the barrel so the correct ammunition is issued and loaded into the weapon. Shooting 5.56mm rounds in an AR15 rifle will do no harm to that rifle provided it was assembled correctly. I’ve been doing this for a long time with both factory and rifles I’ve put together out of military spec. Parts. Same thing with 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester. The simple difference is military brass is thicker so less room inside the case. The exterior dimensions… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  J.D. Smith

Ignore Mr. Romeu. If it says it will accept both, it will accept both. If you are really concerned, call Windham Weaponry and confirm. And thank you for your service.
Elton Green, SSG, USA Inf., Ret.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  J.D. Smith

The NM barrel for the M1A has a match chamber, which is on the tight side of the chamber tolerance for the .308 Win. cartridge. It will fire 7.62X51 safely if it can chamber the ammunition. In other words, if the ammunition is within US Military Ordinance Department specifications. If you buy surplus ammunition, check it to insure it will chamber properly. If the bolt won’t lock up, the ammo is out of spec. Disassemble it and re-size the brass for reloading. If it will chamber properly, it will be safe to fire. Again, the two cartridges have EXACTLY the… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  J.D. Smith

Hey JD you’re rifle is a fine target rifle. You’re best results will be with commercial .308 Winchester ammunition. You’re rate if rifling twist is 1:10. This will stabilize up to 175 grain match bullets very well. You can also shoot 150 grain loads for the shorter range matches. Out to 200 yds. They work well. The 175gr. Load works best at 500 and 600 yards. It goes to sleep at around 350 yards and is still over 1000 fps at 800 yds. This is why the Marine Corps and the Army switched back from the 168gr. Bullet. The 168gr… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  J.D. Smith

A National Match M1A is an M1A designed from the ground up for accuracy. It has a precision trigger, precision sights, national match bolt, operating rod, gas system, barrel and flash suppressor. The chamber and barrel are bored and rifled to very close tolerances, the barrel is generally gaged to be within around .0005 from breech to bore, and the stock and hand guard are hand fitted to exacting tolerances to insure proper bedding of the action and barrel. The NM designation is the proof that all this has been done to the rifle and that the rifle should meet… Read more »

Mike
Mike
2 years ago

I made the mistake of shooting 308 commercial brass which I reload in my m14 I have a R.E.M. 7600 in 308 so I used same loads in both The m14 ripped apart the brass from long head space blew the mag out of rifle through the shooting bench, the stock split up to my cheek I thought my fingers were gone I couldn’t feel them and was afraid to look if my rifle hadn’t been a military rifle I’m sure I would have been killed all the pressure went down and not back into my face Stick with the… Read more »

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

I had the very same experience with a Mosin M1A when the round jambed in the chamber when and the bolt slammed home, blowing up the round, cracking the stock and peppering me with mini specs of blood all over my arms, but I didn’t find any cuts on me? Luckily, I sold the busted up rifle at a gun show for a grand!?! THAT was even more amazing???

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Who made your M14/M1a? I’m curious as to the manufacturer because it sounds like it may have been improperly head-spaced. This might not have been due to your loads.

Donald Bozeman
Donald Bozeman
2 years ago

Have a m1 caliber .30 springfield armory on back of rifle , the barrel is made by h&r in 7.62 nato sa 11010457 dated 5 65 was told it came the navy, the question is ,is it safe to put factory 7.62 x 51 win. without blowing up, I tried putting shell in front of barrel it looked a little tight not coming to the rifle case , could use your comments, thank you.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
2 years ago
Reply to  Donald Bozeman

B, No one is going to answer your question because it could become a legal issue. Perhaps you could take it to a bona fide gunsmith for a physical in person inspection.

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
2 years ago
Reply to  Donald Bozeman

B, Try using the ammo that is stamped onto the barrel and refrain from ANY experimentation whatsoever.

ALL attorneys for accident, injury, liability lawsuits will tell you the exact very same, AFTER THE FACT OF YOUR, “EXPERIMENTATION” else they would make no money off of your unlicensed, unauthorized, unregulated stupidity.

YOU DO NOT SHOVE A SQUARE PEG INTO A ROUND HOLE!

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Donald Bozeman

Mr. Bozeman, I will not do like Mr. Romeu has done and comment on your question like you are foolish in asking it. Instead I will give you the same advice that Wild Bill did. And maybe a little more. First, the rifle you have is probably worth around $2000.00, so I would not experiment. Take it to a gunsmith and have him use a go/no-go guage or a field guage on it to determine headspace. Second, have him check the magazine (clip) area and make sure there is a spacer present. One is required for the M1 when converted… Read more »

Mac, USN
Mac, USN
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Some very good points, but to clarify, please, the spacer block in a Navy 7.62mm Mark 2 (M1) rifle is not required for feeding. It is optional, and only there to prevent someone from loading a clip of .30-06 into the rifle’s magazine. Many of the Navy’s rifles did not even have the spacer block.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mac, USN

The spacer block for the 7.62×51 conversion was sometimes lost when the rifle was disassembled and not replaced. It was designed to allow the shorter cartridge to feed reliably, and was a necessary item for that in an M1. If your rifle feeds without it, that’s good. Most of them wouldn’t feed well without the block to help guide the round, due to the extra length of the receiver. It was also a problem with the prototype M14 due to the first receivers being converted from the longer M1 receiver. And on occasion when the first M1 conversions were fired… Read more »

Alan
Alan
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Mr.Green:
Re Garands converted to 7.62MMNATO or .308 Win., yes there are differences between Military and Commercial rounds on the referenced calibers,as I recall from when I was active in competitive rifler shooting, I had seen a couple of Garands shooting .308Win.and or the NATO round. Re the “block”you mentioned, correct me if I’m wrong, but that would be part of the story, as a new barrel would be required.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Alan, you are correct. The rifle is re-barrelled to 7.62 NATO, and a spacer block is installed. The spacer is there because the magazine (or clip) well is designed for the 30-06 and it acts as a filler and guide to ensure reliable feeding.

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

You’re rifle is an M1 Grand conversation to 7.62 NATO. This was done to try to save some money and give the Navy a target rifle due to a shortage of available M14 rifles. This is why it’s marked 7.62 on the receiver. If the mag well block is missing a .30 cal clip can be loaded mistakenly. The 7.62 chamber is 1/2 inch shorter. If you run the bolt home the .30 cal round will go into the chamber and stop bolt won’t. This can cause an out of battery detonation destroying the rifle and possibly killing the shorter.… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

The spacer block is only there to prevent a clip loaded with .30 caliber ammunition from being loaded into the receiver. When the bolt runs forward the .5″ round will stop and could cause an out of battery detonation with tragic results to the rifle, the shooter and the shooter next to him. I saw this actually happen once. Fortunately nobody got hurt but the rifle didn’t survive. If you spend enough time on shooting ranges you’ll see it all sooner or later

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

Mr. Furbush is also correct, in that the block kept the Navy from using clips of 30-06 ammunition in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO. It also serves as a guide to keep the shorter round orientated properly for reliable feeding. Both the CMP and Fulton Armory will be glad to sell you one, and it isn’t hard to install. So far, we’ve discussed the difference between .308 Win. and 7.62 NATO, which is in areas such as brass thickness and primer crimps etc., but we haven’t differences in brands of brass, either .308 or 7.62. I think that should… Read more »

Jack A Furbush
Jack A Furbush
2 years ago
Reply to  Donald Bozeman

Yes it is safe to use. Commercial .308 Winchester in you’re rifle

Jeremy
Jeremy
3 years ago

I have a pair of Indian made Enfield rifles in 7.62 NATO. I have had one round that the head separated from the case while I was shooting them at the range . The gas vented back into my face but fortunately I was wearing my razor fly shooting glasses. I was using Steel cased wolf 308. When this happened. I had already fired several hundred rounds out of the rifles with nonproblems. I no longer shoot anything but 762 Nato surplus through my various 762 bolt actions. I at one point purchase several cases of the steel case wolf… Read more »

Marvin
Marvin
3 years ago

Great article and a reminder for myself, since I own a M!A. After reading this article I went to my documentation and it listed my rifle as head spaced to 1.631. I believe this may be due to it being a fully loaded model, just a guess. I only shoot mil spec ammo in it, I had some commercial FMJ ammo where one case failed to eject and I had to remove it with a cleaning rod. I have not tried any major brands of hunting ammo, It may prove more reliable.

Harris Langford
Harris Langford
3 years ago

Tom McHale, thanks for a well-done, genuinely helpful piece. I recently acquired a Mossberg 800AM in .308 Winchester, Mossberg’s entry into the center-fire weapon field. The weapon, because it was part of an estate ownership and though built in 1970 – 1972, is in 98% condition in both metal and woodwork. I called Mossberg to ask about the proper care and feeding of this beautiful lady. Their weapon specialist, while agreeing that the .308 is loaded more powerfully than the 7.62mm, strongly recommended that I not use the latter round in the weapon. He remarked that while I might get… Read more »

Neal Christensen
Neal Christensen
3 years ago

I have an M-1 Garand that was rechambered to 7.72 NATO and given the National Match treatment. It is hard on commercial .308 brass.

Ed McCourt
Ed McCourt
3 years ago

Ha Ha , Because I’m a bit of a Dummy RE-Math and an OLD Marine at 81 yrs old and keeping up with the young studs! I’ll have to go with Viper in MT, and shoot what the gun calls for. Hold em and squeeze em gents! if your in the -V- ring I’d say your probably using the correct ammo.

Semper Fi
Machete Eddie
Capt USMC (ret)

DaveW
DaveW
3 years ago
Reply to  Ed McCourt

Thanks for your service, and HuuuuuRahhhhhhh!

It says what ammo to use right on the firearm. That’s what I run through each of mine except in the case of a firearm which has been certified for more than one (.357/.38Spl, .308/7.62, .22S/.22L/.22LR). For 21+ years. I was provided the correct ammo for my issue firearms and I never had a problem of confusing calibers.

DaveW, MSgt, USAF (Ret.)
Defensor Fortis

Greg Yardape
Greg Yardape
3 years ago

HK G3 were 7.62 NATO. One of the improvements PTR did was chamber in .308. I have the PTR 91 and it digests everything just fine. .308 is more accurate though.

Max Maxwe;;
Max Maxwe;;
3 years ago

I have a Mossberg .308 and out of curiosity I called the company and ask them. The gentleman I spoke with said I could shoot them with no problem. He said the biggest difference was the headspace and the brass. The military 7.62 was a little heaver but had not effect on the weapon. He did say that personally he would not soot the .308 in a weapon designed for military usage and the 7.62 though he had done so and had not had any problems but preferred to used modern weapons with the correct caliber as being the safest… Read more »

Mark
Mark
3 years ago

If their was a dangerous difference in the calibers then we would hear not stop stories of shooters blowing off their faces with the wrong round whether its 308 or a 223 issue. I can even recall about hearing such a story but only ones involving shotguns or five-seven reloads.

fishunter
fishunter
3 years ago

I have two Savage Model 99’s. All I have shot in them is 308 commercial rounds. I have been considering trying some 7.62 X 51 FMJ to see how they perform, but now I may just stay with commercial ammo. I believe both were made in the 1950’s and are gaining value and I do not want to damage them in any way. Additionally, I have a Ruger Scout that says 308, but does not say 7.62 X 51. I guess I’ll contact the Ruger company to see if they have recommendations.

Jim
Jim
3 years ago
Reply to  fishunter

I had the Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 and I did contact Ruger about shooting 7.62 NATO through it and the reply that I got was that you can absolutely shoot 7.62 through it.

Randy
Randy
3 years ago
Reply to  fishunter

I had a Savage 99 in .308 and no way the bolt would close on 7.62. I also have a Savage Hog Hunter in .308 and it seems to have a bit more generous chambering as I have been able to easily close the bolt on SOME military rounds. But the real question should be “Why in the world would you want to try this??”. A Savage 99 is never going to be used for long distance shots and should never be considered as a plinker that you are going to take to the range and blast away on cheap… Read more »

James Higginbotham
James Higginbotham
2 years ago
Reply to  fishunter

fishunter.
i own 4 savage model 99’s.
one in 250 savage, two in 300 savage, and the last one in caliber 308 winchester.
in that one i’d NEVER SHOOT 7.62×51 IN IT.
my advice to all here is STICK to the caliber your firearm was designed to shoot.

gary
gary
3 years ago

Some days I’m just not smart enough to shoot a gun. That will be the day I have a 7.62 or 308. Whew. Seems to me the only safe thing is to fire what the barrel stamp indicates.

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  gary

Ahhh! Trying to impose common sense and logic into the world of firearms? Are you sure that’s a safe thing to do on an online forum full of people that refuse to use common sense and logic?

nonoc
nonoc
3 years ago

Would this discussion be the same if we were talking about commercial 30-06 vs. the military round?

John
John
3 years ago

I use 7.62X51 brass for my handloads that I run in a gas gun that I built.
I trim to length( .308) and load using the .308 data. I look for pressure as I develop loads .

Anthony w york jr
Anthony w york jr
2 years ago
Reply to  John

it is just look at the M1 Garand

Mark
Mark
3 years ago

I have a Browning Hog Stalker semi auto marked 308 only. It appears in all aspects to be the same rifle as the FNAR with exception to the camo finish on my rifle. I see the FNAR is stamped 7.62X51. Can you explain the difference?

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Yes, in one rifle the manufacture is telling you to use, .308 ammo and the other manufacturer is telling you to use 7.62×51 ammo???

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark

In reviewing a lot of the responses to this particular article it is showing proof to the world that the Liberals are right that there should be a disarmament being that a lot of you do not deserve or need to have firearms in your possession just by the dumbasses questions I am seeing.

I have a website SELLING “Common Sense”! Feel free to stop by and purchase all you want at any time!

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark

The reason that the rifles are similar is that Fabrique Nationale and Browning have been affiliated for about 90 years. They are the same rifle made by probably the same factory with different names because one is sold in the US and one is sold in Europe. In the case of the FN rifle, it is stamped with the metric designation for the .308 Winchester. When I was stationed in Europe (notably Germany) I talked with several German gunsmiths. The commercial version of the 7.62 Nato is labeled 7.62X51, and exactly corresponds to the .308 Winchester. Also, further evidence that… Read more »

HMLA-167 Warrior
HMLA-167 Warrior
3 years ago

I don’t think the pressure in the Tsar Bomba was enough to “alter the trajectory of Michael Moore’s daily Krispy Kreme run.”

HP
HP
3 years ago

I laughed

Mark S
Mark S
3 years ago

Have a browning short trac marked 308 only. Have fired IMI 7.62 and functioned OK. Should I continue to use it or go 308 only.

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark S

The manufacture stamped the word, “only” into the metal for a purpose.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark S

The IMI commercial 7.62X51 is .308 Winchester made by Israel using the metric designation. (Germany does the same thing with its commercial .308 because they also use the metric system, although when I was stationed in Germany, some of their .308 Winchester was stamped with both designations.) It is made to US tolerances, and I have fired it in both bolt guns and semi-autos extensively as practice ammunition. It is also very good brass for reloading. Don’t be afraid of it. I use it in my Remington 700, a Savage model 10, and an H&K 91. It functions beautifully and… Read more »

Stevan Kaighen
Stevan Kaighen
1 year ago
Reply to  Elton P. Green

SSG Green I am just reading this article (2019) and don’t expect this message to make your box but thank you. Thank you for your cordial reply’s and for the technical/experienced based information you provided. I’m am starting my research to build an AR rifle and decided to start by first researching the round I want to build in and your expertise has been great. Also, if I am reading correctly, you have a lifetime of public service and I especially want to thank you for making our country the best country to live in and be part of. I’m… Read more »

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Mark S

The country of Israel uses the metric system. The IMI brand of ammunition is labeled accordingly. IMI 7.62X51 commercial ammunition is .308 Winchester ammunition labeled under the metric designation. Germany does the same thing with their .308 Winchester commercial ammunition too. But since they accommodate American shooters and hunters (mostly military stationed there) they will label most of their ammunition as .308 win/7.62X51. (I know that Germany does this because I was stationed in Germany for about 4 years.) The IMI brand of ammunition is completely safe in your rifle as long as your rifle is in good condition. It… Read more »

Mark
Mark
3 years ago

Have a Browning Short Trac says 308 only. Have fired IMI 7.62 and functioned fine. Should I continue or 308 only?

Vic
Vic
3 years ago

I’ve shot both in my Marlin .308, never had a problem with length of 7.62. Nwow that’s not to say I won’t but I’ve fired 1000’s of rounds with not problems.

Jamie clemons
Jamie clemons
3 years ago

Can I cut down some case length from old spent mosin cartridges to .51 and use them to reload .308.

Sam
Sam
3 years ago
Reply to  Jamie clemons

Have you looked at the 2 cartridges ??
The mosin is a rimmed round and the 308 is not –

Randy
Randy
3 years ago
Reply to  Sam

I’m hoping he will make a video of him shaving off the rim.

Stephen Hahn
Stephen Hahn
3 years ago

I just read your your article about MOA vs MIL. My question is how does a 20 MOA rail figure in to tje calculation?

Mike11C
Mike11C
3 years ago
Reply to  Stephen Hahn

A 20 MOA rail doesn’t affect calculations at all. It simply gives you more range adjustment. If you’re not zeroed at 100, and adjusting your elevation for longer shots, you don’t need a 20 MOA rail.

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Stephen Hahn

Forget the 20 MOA rail. Get a Shepherd P2 or one of their 4X14 scopes with the dual reticle bullet drop and range finding reticle built in for 1,000 yards or in the new scopes, 1,200 yards on the vertical cross hair. I have five of these scopes mounted on two 30-06’s, two 300 Winchester Magnums and one 35 Whelen. Shepherd has reticles that are matched to all these calibers and several more. The P2 is designed especially for the .308 Winchester/7.62X51 NATO cartridge using 165gr through 175 grain match bullets, and will be within one minute of angle of… Read more »

Chuck
Chuck
3 years ago

Please note: the difference in headspace length is only 5 and 1/2 thousandths (or 55 ten thousandths) of an inch according to the numbers you show. The only way you can get 15 thousandths difference is between .308 min and 7.62 max.

Fred Crawford
Fred Crawford
3 years ago

I have an FN FAL with the barrel marked “.308 Match.” Safe to shoot both in?

Greg YardApe
Greg YardApe
3 years ago

Now I know, and knowing is half the battle

Dan
Dan
3 years ago

I have a Daniel Defense DD-5, the barrel is stamped 7.62 and .308 this would seem a little odd to me. Any ideas?

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  Dan

It’s no different than a barrel stamp 5.56 or .223. It means for the manufacturer’s warranty purposes they will accept and you will be in compliance within their limits of any liability to use either or round in that rifle.

Doug
Doug
3 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

That is not correct. 5.56 military rounds can be much longer than .223 by design not just by stacking tolerances. If such a military load is chambered in a .223 the projectile will be lodged against the rifling creating a potentially catastrophic high pressure condition. When we use civilian .308 round in a military chamber we are fighting the larger chamber allowances in the 7.62 rifled. The thin civilian brass in conjunction with large military chamber allowances can create a situation where we see ruptured cases. Except for the poor quality control demonstrated in some military surplus ammo that was… Read more »

Gregory Romeu
Gregory Romeu
3 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Well golly gee? Then I guess you better hurry up and run and tell the manufacturers of these chambered rifles that you know so much more better than them or their engineers???

viper in Montana
viper in Montana
3 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

you guys are all nucking futts!…..just shoot what you’re supposed to shoot through the gun…….geeeeez….

Tim
Tim
2 years ago
Reply to  Gregory Romeu

Now there is an answer that explains my whole Question Thank you very much. I am happy to find out that I am not a blind monkey on crack. Some people are not worth the effort to talk tp pr about

Elton P. Green
Elton P. Green
2 years ago
Reply to  Dan

Mr. Romeu is correct. If it is stamped both 7.62X51 and .308 Win. it is safe to shoot both. Just make sure the 7.62X51 NATO is within tolerances and you’ll be ok. If it chambers with little or no effort it is within tolerances. And yes, some 5.56X45 NATO is longer than .223 Remington ammunition, but that is overall length, not differences in casing. If the rifle is stamped to accept both .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO, it has a chamber with a long (military specs) leade in front of the casing, and is safe with the 62 grain bullet… Read more »

jim s
jim s
3 years ago

Damn, I just bought a box of 7.62 for my .308