Ammo Demand, Message From Federal, CCI, Speer & Remington Pres. Jason Vanderbrink

USA – -(AmmoLand.com)-The President of ammunition manufacturing companies: Federal, CCI, Speer & Remington, Jason Vanderbrink, has a message for ammunition buyers dispelling the rumors about the shortage of ammunition on retail shelves.

“We are making ammunition every minute of every day!”

“We are making all of the ammunition as fast as we can!”

“We are doing our damndest to meet the demand!”

“We know, ammo seems hard to come by right now. But rest assured, we are building and shipping more and more every day—right here in the USA. Check out this video [above] for more details.”

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About Federal Ammunition

Federal ammunition can be found at dealers nationwide or purchased online direct from Federal. For more information on all products from Federal or to shop online, visit www.federalpremium.com.

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wjd
wjd
14 days ago

What I got from the video!

His message is clear. You will get it when I am ready to release it to the vendors and OEMs. I will keep the OEMs just a tiny bit back-ordered on components so there are no excess primers. We do not want individuals making ammunition for .50 cents when we can gouge the public for 1 dollar. If you are a reloader, get a new hobby. If you want ammo you will buy it from us. 1,000.00 for 1k of 223.

People should just boycott for a year and let them eat their primers.

BMG_Gunner
BMG_Gunner
3 months ago

It is clear to me that the only logical solution is to increase supply and production capacity. Now before anyone says well companies won’t do that because when sales drop…..hold onto your britches we can fix that. If we repeal the 1986 Hughes amendment and allow new civilian machine guns to be registered, that’ll take good care of any excess inventory that piles up during slumps.

In short…machine guns are the answer!

P
P
4 months ago

So which ammo company does jsnmgc work for? Or does he just have no life? Pretty valid question based on how much he posts on this site and the nature of his comments.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  P

None. Also, I have no investments in any ammo companies.

Why do you hate the truth and capitalism?

P
P
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Your reply was as triggered and belligerent as I expected. I made no comments about truth or capitalism. If your replies were more relevant to what you are actually replying to, less frequent, and less forcefully slanted, perhaps you would be taken more seriously. If you don’t work for an ammo company, your posts scream of insecurity and loneliness, and that you’re trying to exercise those demons through an internet message board. Which is sad. I would have more respect for you if you did work for an ammo company. At least you would have a reason to be this… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  P

You wondered which ammo company I worked for, or whether I had no life and now you claim I’m belligerent. My comments on this article were regarding the truth (versus a handful of people creating theories out of thin air). The logic I put forth supported capitalism because it is the best way of addressing demand/supply disconnects. This is a discussion board. People are discussing the price and availability of ammunition. Rather than putting forth your logic about the issue you start accusing me of working for an ammo company, having no life, being insecure, and being lonely. Why not… Read more »

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago
Reply to  P

P,

You’ve been here since the middle of November. Your comments consist of a complaint about ammo prices rising, and the comments on this page. Reread the policy on personal attacks please. Feel free to add comments of substance.

pro2nd
pro2nd
4 months ago

Now that I’ve chewed on this video and the Hornady video for a few days, Mr. Vanderbrink and Mr. Hornady didn’t address the major issue facing all of us “shooters”. It’s not availability its the PRICE. This is where Mr. Vanderbrink and all the other manufacturer owners can have a huge impact, if they truly cared about the shooting public now and going forward. They can tell all the price gouging wholesalers & retailers that they will not supply their product anymore now or in the future to them, if these prices don’t come down to a reasonable level. Many… Read more »

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago
Reply to  pro2nd

All you have done with your screed is to show just how little you understand about running a profitable business. Either you weren’t taught well or you didn’t pay attention in class.

pro2nd
pro2nd
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Just threw it out for discussion sake and a different angle for this conversation….didn’t mean to offend you with my ignorance, never ran a business, recieved a good education, was a cop for thirty years and retired for good at 50.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  pro2nd

What you suggested has been tried before – in the Soviet Union, Mao’s China, North Korea, Venezuela, etc. Even with lots of government employees with guns, it doesn’t work.

If the product is being sold for below market value, there will be a black market and future shortages because the difference between the market value and the “official” price does not go to the producer.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  pro2nd

Hello pro2nd, A few things to consider: Vista Outdoors sells to very large retailers as well as wholesaler/distributors. It is difficult to control pricing throughout the distribution chain. Tiny mom & pop gun stores sell their product, hardware stores sell their product, tack & feed stores sell their product. It would be a monumental undertaking to go beyond the wholesalers/distributors. If they controlled the price to the wholesaler/distributer what prevents those businesses from charging a high price to the small gun stores? Even if they were able to control the price all the way down to the price paid by… Read more »

contendershooter
contendershooter
4 months ago

Here is something that I find a little bit off about this…I was in my LGS and my friend purchased a new pistol. The worker then tells him “I have ammo to sell with the pistol at a different price than the floor price” which in this case was CCI Blazer Brass 9MM 115gr ball and he got 2 boxes at $13.99 per box and a box of Federal HST defense ammo at $17.99 for a 20 round box. Those same boxes were on the floor for $28.99 per box for the Blazer Brass, and $31.99 for the box of… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

contendershooter,

What do you find “off?”

Different business owners have different business models.

In stores near me, I have seen three business models:

  • Ammo put on shelves and priced a little higher than 2019 – ammo sells out immediately;
  • Ammo reserved for people buying firearms;
  • Ammo put on shelves and priced much higher than 2019 – ammo sells slowly and people who really want a little have it available to buy.

Business owners make different business decisions.

contendershooter
contendershooter
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

My point is the cost increase, is not occuring at the manufacturer/distributor level, it’s happening at the retail level. I understand the “why” as you described above, which is exactly what I have been seeing, but instead of charging $30.00 a box for a $12.00 box of ammo, maybe charge the lesser price or add a few dollars to it, and limit persons to 2 boxes per customer instead of charging $39.99 for a box of 50 steel case 9mm that I have seen some online retailers do. The “cost” of the ammo is pricing some out of buying guns… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

You can’t stop the market. Demand is so far above supply, there is nothing you can do. The businesses are each making their own decisions. For the ones rationing, you have people with gravy stains on their shirts and unshaven necks waiting for an hour outside the business’s door every morning to buy their allotment. Then they go resell it for three times the amount they paid. What has been accomplished by rationing? When there is such a massive disconnect between supply and demand, there are going to be people who feel the situation is unfair. Do you believe the… Read more »

contendershooter
contendershooter
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Absolutely not…I don’t believe in govt control of any section of free market, as much as I don’t believe in all the BS the BATFE sits around and makes up that doesn’t make any sense. I am simply just trying to discuss ways to get ammo in the hands of people at a reasonable cost, nothing more. As has been said on here, when Trump was elected, AR’s and ammo was available by the barrel loads and now we’re back to the Obama years, if not worse. I buy ammo when available and get extra to put back when times… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

I agree – the demand is so huge, it will be a long time before the producers can catch up. It’s uncertain if the demand will continue though because a lot of the people buying right now don’t shoot much so after they get comfortable with how much they have they will stop buying. Because of this, the manufacturers may not want to invest in additional capacity.

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago

Ok, contendershooter, lets step away from guns and ammo and address your statement, “The “cost” of the ammo is pricing some out of buying guns right now, and pricing them out of being able to shoot right now.”, by comparing the situation, as you see it, to something else. Over the last fifty years there have been times when the price of motor vehicle fuel went up substantially. In fact it went up so much that people were buying new cars that were smaller than that which they wanted to buy because they got more miles to the gallon of… Read more »

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago

The larger, looming issue here that explains a lot – and where the current ammo issue is just a clue – is with the first 100 days of the Harris/Biden administration. And, if the Dems gain control of the Senate after the Georgia elections, any and all gun control measures will become immediate reality. As such, it is entirely possible that both manufacturers and retailers are reserving substantial amounts of ammo, and building their inventories, in anticipation of what the next administration might bring. Nothing good comes from a Harris/Biden administration, but if the Senate is lost in the process,… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

Why do you refuse to look at audited financial statements?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

I would pay money to be in Jason’s office tomorrow to hear him and Sudhanshu reading this thread. They are going to be laughing their asses off at the willful ignorance of someone who not only can’t figure this out on his own, but when someone gets the financial reports, analyzes them, interprets the analysis in the context of the discussion and then lays it all out for you, you conclude the manufacturers are holding onto inventory. Jason and Sudhanshu, I don’t know you, but after all the bullshit you have had to endure from a bunch of mouth-breathing neck… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

And to the staff auditors at Deloitte, cheers!

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I heartily agree with your statement and sentiment.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Thanks. There are going to be a number of people in a couple of particular professions who are going to be reading this thread while enjoying adult beverages and feeling more festive than when Hans Gruber falls from the 30th floor of the Nakatomi Plaza (and when Ellis gets shot in the face).

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Here are the conspiracies dispelled so far: Vista Outdoor has four brands, therefore prices are high because they have monopolistic pricing power ( translation for some: “they are mean and can get away with it because corporations are bad”). Response: There are numerous other large and small companies all competing for the same customers. Obama shutdown lead and now we have to buy it from the Chinese and therefore ammo is scarce and expensive. Response: Look at the data provided – lead is not scarce and the increase in the price of lead is a tiny fraction of the increase… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Oops – forgot one: Deep state operatives working for the Biden camp are buying all the ammo for the government without the knowledge of their Republican bosses. Their plan? To keep ammo out of the hands of patriots when the Biden administration implements radical new gun control. Response: See footnote 19 to the most recent 10-K and footnote 17 to the most recent 10-Q – Walmart is the only large customer Vista Outdoor has had for the last three and a half years.

swmft
swmft
4 months ago

ther is also the changes brought by obummer with the epa where they closed multiple smelters by revoking licenses ,so now most lead and copper must be imported and meet safety rules in shipping good by jobs in gary indiana

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  swmft

If lead availability was a significant constraint to ammunition production, do you believe the cost of lead would be higher than the 10-year mean?

Wass
Wass
4 months ago
Reply to  swmft

You happen to be right. And until the US gets back into lead smelting, prices of ammunition will remain high. But if Biden is inaugurated president, don’t expect movement on this.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Wass

The sourcing of lead has very little to do with the cost or availability of ammunition.

At the current cost of lead, a box of 50 typical .22 LR rimfire cartridges has less than $0.50 of lead in it.

People in this thread keep making things up without doing research or applying mathematics to readily available data.

I’m waiting for DonnyDucko to continue the discussion about ammo sales from Vista Outdoor to the government.

KDad
KDad
4 months ago

There seems to be 9mm available but not much .40 S&W at all !

Cruiser
Cruiser
4 months ago

The rule of supply and demand went out the window back in the early 70’s.
Ever since the “Coffee and Sugar shortages”, companies have put profit as their # 1 priority. Quality and the customer are an after thought. Many products that were rejected years ago are now sold as “Good enough.”
Today we have settled for something that is “good enough”, not demanding
better quality for our hard earned money.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Cruiser

The rule of supply and demand is alive and well.

Have you been seeing significant quality issues with Federal, CCI, Speer, or Remington ammo?

Stone
Stone
4 months ago

Thanks to you and your employees.

Matt in Oklahoma
Matt in Oklahoma
4 months ago

Mr Vanderbrink yall ignore the whiners and just keep up the good work. It’s been a tough year

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

I can only imagine what he must have been hearing this year that would result in him making that video. I understand when people make comments about “last year I paid . . . ,” and just venting about the price increase, but then to go on and say: “There should be a law” (so far, I believe TX is the only place that an abuse of emergency orders led to Socialist price controls and prosecution of a company for violating those controls); “We should demand the company . . . ” (sounds like Pelosi demanding Chik-fil-A not have a… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Well done! You almost never hear Bill Pitt jr quoted. %-)

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Most of the good stuff was said a long time ago.

Now we have statists who believe we have to have a large government who may or may not grant us permission to have a rifle with a 15.5″ barrel because there is a “need” to protect our LEOs.

Tactical Gecko
Tactical Gecko
4 months ago

I am lucky to have enough ammo stockpiled, but if I take 2 or 3 firearms classes this year along with weekly shooting sessions with my local amcon group, I will certainly have to pay these crazy prices to replenish what I have used. If money gets too tight then I’ll have to skip the weekly shooting sessions and maybe take only one class. Sadly this shortage could go on for four years. There are people in my area that line up hours ahead outside sportsman’s warehouse and bass pro shops for 9mm and 5.56. I can’t imagine how much… Read more »

bobj823
bobj823
4 months ago

Thank you Jason for all your effort. I’m sure your companies are doing very well during this high demand. Good for you! Thank you for taking the time to send the message. It is appreciated by more people than your realize.

Country Boy
Country Boy
4 months ago

HHMMMM…I wonder if the fact that CHINA now smelts all our lead ore now that obama saw to it, has anything to do with ur ammo shortage? And if not, I suspect it soon will be…………

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Country Boy

I disagree with the regulations implemented by the Obama administration, but if lead was so scarce it was having a significant impact on the production of ammunition, the price of lead would be greater than the 10-year mean price:

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lead

It’s up about 6% this year, but that is not a key factor in the increase in the cost of ammunition and is not reflective of a commodity that is in short supply when there is significant demand.

Don
Don
4 months ago
Reply to  Country Boy

NO. The lead is smelted in Canada.

Cam
Cam
4 months ago

I have not seen a box of 9mm on the shelf in real life since March.

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago

I am totally amazed that after going through upwards of 100 comments on this story that not ONE person mentioned a thing about the MILLIONS of rounds that are in shipping containers, trucks and shuffled through warehousing to get distributed to the public? Right now I am visiting relatives two-thirds across the U.S. and just to get my first class mail “temporarily forwarded” is taking well over 3 weeks… To get general items I purchase online is coming in at around 2-3 weeks average… It takes people and money to move all the ammo from place to place. In the… Read more »

ChootEm
ChootEm
4 months ago

This kind of shortage happens every damn election year, and lasts well into the following year. This year though? We’ll be lucky if things return to normal before 2024. You’d think that a CEO or someone with a MBA could figure this out and ramp up during the slower times so that ample supply is available during times of high demand. No, not the case. Soon as this pandemic is over and demand starts dwindling, some new employees are going to lose their jobs instead of these companies building back stock. #RocketScience

Last edited 4 months ago by ChootEm
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  ChootEm

ChootEm, They have looked at the variations in demand over time. After Trump won, demand fell like a rock in 2017. There is a cost of carrying inventory. In this thread, four main drivers of demand have been discussed: A huge increase in first-time buyers of firearms COVID-19 being a rude awakening for people who had not previously kept much of a personal inventory of anything BLM/Antifa not being controlled by LEOs – violent riots occurring across the country for months Biden’s extraordinary anti-2nd Amendment campaign platform All four of those events are extremely rare and they all occurred within… Read more »

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  ChootEm

Quick! Notify Federal NOW! I am SURE they want to hire you RIGHT AWAY!

Matt in Oklahoma
Matt in Oklahoma
4 months ago
Reply to  ChootEm

Or the people who shoot could look at things coming up and have inventory on hand so they don’t get caught every so often whining about the shortages.
Buy It Cheap Stack It Deep

DonnyDucko
DonnyDucko
4 months ago

Another manufactured crisis.

People might be buying more but it ain’t that much more. And if this is America’s capacity for ammo just give up on a civil war right now. Give on winning WWIII.

If you look I would guess the government has massive orders in, someone is stockpiling ammo, it’s artificially being limited or connected to Biden’s planned executive order(s) on guns.

I guarantee this – IT IS BY DESIGN.

Gene Ralno
Gene Ralno
4 months ago
Reply to  DonnyDucko

As I understand the video, this article is about civilian ammunition. Northrop Grumman has produced military ammunition for 20 years, just under a billion rounds per year. They employ almost 2,000 employees and produced more than 1.4 billion rounds at the Lake City plant in 2018.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  DonnyDucko

Do you believe Vista Outdoor has been shipping significant quantities of ammo to the government this year?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

@DonnyDucko

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  DonnyDucko

DonnyDucko may be involved in real life outside of the internet and good for him if that’s the case. For others who may be interested to know more about DonnyDucko’s theory of Vista Outdoor selling a massive amount of ammo to the government, I have an update for you. DonnyDucko said that if you look, he would guess the government has been buying massive amounts of ammo from Vista Outdoor because, apparently, someone in the government is getting all that ammo out of the hands of people opposed to Biden’s upcoming gun control laws. He guarantees this and states that… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Here’s the most recent 10-Q. The information is in footnote #17:

http://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001616318/e20cd25f-3b98-4a4b-acd2-f734c237fa34.pdf

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Couple typos in there – sorry, the system indicated the post was not available for edit.

Mikial
Mikial
4 months ago

I feel bad for people who cannot find ammo. A gun without ammo is nothing more than an expensive club. I have plenty because I have been buying it for years, a little at a time just like I buy extra canned food and supplies each time we shop. You can’t wait until the shortage hits and then go into a panic buying mode, you have to develop a sensible plan to ensure you have what you need when the time comes. It may take years of buying a little extra each time you buy some to do it, but… Read more »

Hivelocitie
Hivelocitie
4 months ago

I am a Retailor – I have in stock almost every single type of ammo there is with few exceptions NO I DO NOT SELL AMMO on line – so don’t ask. I have (and have had) Unlimited 22, 9, 40, 38, 5.56 , .223, and daily sell case lots in my storefront. AMMO is expensive – sky high. To do what I do and serve my customers I have to rely on the secondary market. Direct purchasing from Middle men that purchase from the importers. While I consistently receive inbound shipments from my wholesale sources (daily), they can not… Read more »

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  Hivelocitie

OOH-RAH!

DonnyDucko
DonnyDucko
4 months ago
Reply to  Hivelocitie

So you make clothing and sell ammo? Tell me you spelled retailer Retailor with a capital R on purpose.

If not? WOW.

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  DonnyDucko

I don’t need the grammar police to know what he was saying. I make mistakes myself. Thank you

Rob
Rob
4 months ago
Reply to  DonnyDucko

Thank you for your insightful, comprehensive and completely logical response to a partial explanation as to what’s happening in the ammo market. As an afterthought. did you lose your job at the circus? I’m sure its tough being a clown nowadays…..

NIGHTMARE
NIGHTMARE
4 months ago

WELL WHOEVER GETTING IT UP THE PRICE 100% LIKE THAT ASSES IN TEXAS CVALLED CHEPER THAN DIRT SAD CO SHOULD BE 1000% THAN DIRT LOL

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  NIGHTMARE

yep. I was looking for AR Mags in 7.62. They were selling for almost $25 to $30 a pop. Went to Classic Arms not even $20 for the same thing. So I picked up 2 extra.

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago

Just who IS getting this ammo? No one is disputing the demand, but if no one (meaning the average shooter) has been able to get ammo for months, just who is getting all this production Vanderbrink references? Shooting ranges are mostly closed due to COVID. The new shooters mentioned buy a couple boxes, and then they go to the back of the line if they want more. Personal backorders aren’t being filled. Though I am lucky to have sufficient quantities of all the ammo calibers I need, I did order 2K bulk 9mm before everything went south. That order, if… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

It is being sold to the people who will pay the price.

See musicman44mag’s post below for an example.

Or, “BiDEn aSKed SoROs TO BuY it ALL sO LibERAls cAN WIn the CIVil War. PERIOD!!!!”

Whichever scenario seems reasonable – you be the judge.

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

The “pay at any price” may be a small part, but are you saying that the current production of roughly a billion rounds a month is all being purchased by people paying a $1 a round? Most “retail” sites have no inventory at any price. As for musicman44mag’s post, I can’t comment on it specifically. But, in general, I will add this: Roseburg, Oregon is a remote small town of 23K, and the largest in a county of barely 100K. If this Sportsman store went through 60K rounds of ammo (assuming, just for discussion, a split of 800 boxes @… Read more »

TheRevelator
TheRevelator
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

I had to get some 16 Gauge ammo earlier this year. Think about how that must have gone. I had to buy it a box at a time when the shipments would come in. There was no other way to do it. If you go to a chain store, it is even worse because if someone orders it there they will take it from other locations to fill orders they have right then. Sportsman’s warehouse… Hmm, online store and chain.. Might have something to do with that, just saying The problem isnt that the ammo is being made, its just… Read more »

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  TheRevelator

I agree in theory. I’m not arguing the overall situation, but this is now better than 6 months into the crazy. What I am saying is that this is fuzzy math when you are talking about, probably, 5 billion rounds of ammo produced in the last 6 months. Unless, across the country, hundreds of people are actually living in parking lots and waiting for the trucks to arrive, emptying a small-town store of 60K of ammo, in a single day and with a 2-box max, can’t be the sole explanation for the scarcity. I’m not blaming Soros or crop circles… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

Autsin Miller III finds ammo and at a reasonable price. While his experience is not the norm, people are buying ammo and they are typically paying a much higher price than in 2019. You refuse to accept that people are buying it as soon as it is available, but you are not offering an alternate theory on where it is going. If there was some massive misdirection of ammo produced by many different companies and sold through many different wholesalers/distributers/on-line retailers/brick and mortar retailers, don’t you think one of the thousands of people in-the-know would have leaked the secret? In… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

My final point is this: after 6 months of this mayhem, with 5 billion rounds produced and production schedules ramped up to 24/7 (and now supposedly producing a billion rounds a month), the average shooter is still told that the reason he can’t get ammo is because he isn’t standing in the retailer’s lobby the very morning the truck pulled up. No one is disputing supply and demand, but when only those people who are camping out in the retailer’s parking lot are getting the billions of rounds produced, something else is going on. Possibilities: production quantities are not what… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

5 billion rounds is nothing – it is all being purchased by people willing to pay the price. Some of it is being sold “straight-up” according to rules you may deem as “fair.” Some of it is being sold in ways you may not like, but are legal. People who want it are getting it. Just like every other commodity that is highly sought after. There is no mystery. Ammo is being sold to those who are willing to pay the price. Fear begets fear – it has been an upward spiraling situation. Someone wants to buy one box of… Read more »

TheRevelator
TheRevelator
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

Mark, Something to remember is that there are between 100 and 120 million gun owners in the US as a conservative estimate. Now 20 million divided by 100 million.. That screams shortage. If everyone is still trying to stock up, one or two boxes isnt going to be their cut off point. Personally, I’m one of those people who may be in a tougher spot than you. I’m a handloader.. If you think getting ammo is tough right now, try and find primers to buy. I have several calibers that are not generally loaded, and about the time I was… Read more »

Finnky
Finnky
4 months ago
Reply to  TheRevelator

@TR – Thank you for pointing out the scale of this country. A billion rounds sound so like a lot until one consider so how many want it. Have not heard how much was being produced up to 2019. I imagine it was at least a half billion. Hard to imagine demand only doubling given the year we’ve had and all the new gun owners. I suspect many have search online for how many rounds one should keep on hand and stumbled on frequent suggestions of one thousand for each gun. Even a fraction of the new gun owners attempting… Read more »

TheRevelator
TheRevelator
4 months ago
Reply to  Finnky

You are welcome. I work in a manufacturing setting, and while my state has not been supremely idiotic in its workplace restrictions, I know other states have been much more draconian. Several people also seem to have forgotten that we had a major ammunition manufacturer change hands, and that will take time to get fully going again to comply with all the legal red tape around buying out a bankruptcy. For Ammunition manufacturers to be able to deal with those issues this year, combined with staffing issues stemming from the same issue, it really does act as a monkey wrench… Read more »

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  TheRevelator

I’m not fuming against the machine – my combined inventory of 9mm, .40 and .556 is in excess of 20K. I’m asking questions that aren’t being answered with credibility. It isn’t the number of shooters. My point is this: for WHATEVER amount of ammo is available, what is being said is that the only people getting it are the ones who happen to be standing in the store the very day the truck pulls up – and for a billion rounds of month to be distributed to this relatively small number of “just in time” purchasers doesn’t make sense. This… Read more »

TheRevelator
TheRevelator
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

I understand that, and I wasnt saying that you were the one fuming. A lot of people are though. And yes, it is people going and getting there first, some with nefarious purposes. I know some who buy up all they can and then sell it at gunshows for higher prices. I dont agree with it, but if you have the product and people want it….. The other issue is store employees know when the trucks show up, and let family and friends know to get first serve. I had to source some ammo for a new rifle recently because… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

That is not being what is said. Go back and read all the posts. People at stores are not following the stores guidelines for purchase limits; People at stores are not fulfilling orders on a FIFO basis – they are taking care of their friends and family and people who are willing to pay more; People with influence and a large amount of discretionary wealth are buying in massive quantities – they are not waiting in line with all the neck beards for the store to open, they don’t care what the price is, and they are happy to give… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Again. I’m not claiming “conspiracy”. What I am claiming is exactly what you just posted – you just listed a half-dozen reasons supporting my argument. These rounds are NOT being allocated, in a straight line, from manufacturer to retailer to buyer. They are being diverted by “insiders”, store employees, your “massive” purchasers by the well-heeled, etc. And, with the Harris/Biden administration taking reign, I’m willing to bet that both manufacturers and retailers are building their own inventories in anticipation of the first 100 of that administration. And if the Senate is lost to the Dems, this will no doubt impact… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

I’ve said all along, the ammo is being sold to the people willing to pay the price.

I’ve already provided you audited financial statements (by one of the big four public accounting firms) showing one of the largest manufacturers is not building inventory.

Do you think the public accounting firm is in on the big scam?

Do you think the SEC is on the big scam?

Do you think all the shareholders are being fooled – that cash flows are not up because they are not shipping and collecting the receivables, that it is all a huge cover-up?

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

Regarding the comment about being six months in, the spike in demand is massive. Domestic production for domestic sales is less than a billion rounds a month. If, in one month, 20 million firearm owners wanted to buy 300 rounds each, that is demand of 6 billion rounds – more than 6 times domestic capacity. Why do you continually understate demand and feel that production must have caught up by now? I’ve described four unprecedented demand drivers all occurring within six months. The demand is massive – far above capacity. Demand will remain higher than capacity for quite some time.… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

I have no idea who bought the ammo in Roseburg, Oregon.

Finnky
Finnky
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Rural town of 100k. Being rural I imagine gun owners are more common than in more urban places. According to this thread less than 1% of the population bought up that ammo. If you feel a need for ammo and they limit you, would you not have friends and family help? Would you not check back whenever you could in an effort to procure enough to carry throughout current situation? The very scarcity drives up demand increasing the scarcity. When current demand starts to go down people will soon decide they don’t need quite so much ammo filling their closet.… Read more »

MarkE
MarkE
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Not the point. The point is that, supposedly, in a town of 23K in a county of barely 100K, 60K of ammo was purchased in a day – see? there isn’t an ammo shortage – you’re just unlucky in life when you can’t find any for 6 months. Even if this claim is basically true, a handful of exceptions doesn’t negate a boatload of rules.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

You have no idea how much ammo was sold by that store. If that amount was sold, they could have sold small amounts to 20 people and one guy could have bought all the rest. It is not very much money.

People are buying ammo every single day and have been all year long.

DonnyDucko
DonnyDucko
4 months ago
Reply to  MarkE

Congratulations. You can think. Ignore all the other people here. You are right. Something is up. It’s not people hoarding in buying I promise you that.

Scotty Gunn
Scotty Gunn
4 months ago

Funny, at the local shops all I find is imported ammo. Fiocchi, etc.

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  Scotty Gunn

You won’t find any imported ammo if Sleepy Joe is elected POTUS. Executive Order banning same will be issued on day one.

Beobear
Beobear
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

Unfortunately Creepy Sleepy Joe was elected president. How fair that election was will have to be scrutinized over months and likely years. There’s no “if” anymore, the electoral college has spoken. What this means is people need to stop thinking Trump is going to somehow jump out of a phone booth in a spandex suit and cape to save us. It’s time to put your big boy or girl pants on and start preparing for what’s to come. In the infamous words from a personal favorite of mine ‘Full Metal Jacket’ — “it’s a huge shit sandwich and we’re all… Read more »

SNAFU58
SNAFU58
4 months ago

The first 10 words of the article explain the problem. “The President of ammunition manufacturing companies: Federal, CCI, Speer & Remington”

When the top 4 companies are the same company there is no competiion to produce more and certainly no reason to hold prices.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  SNAFU58

That is most definitely not the problem.

Finnky
Finnky
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Near monopoly does not help. I suggest @SNAFU58 create a competing company so he can drive down prices.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Finnky

I agree – there are numerous large and small companies. Some of the small companies can’t get components right now. All the companies that can get components are running all out. If SNAFU58 wants to start a competing company he may want to read some of the other posts in this thread. Maybe he will start a company with many divisions: Primers Powder Casings Bullets It’s really easy. He can then price the assembled ammunition using an “enlightened” approach that is not based on “greed.” He could price the ammo at 2019 prices. Actually, he could look into what each… Read more »

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Real close, you left out the “Ability” point. Nice restatement of the manifesto, though.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

🙂

pro2nd
pro2nd
4 months ago

Appreciate Mr. Vanderbrink posting the message but there is no doubt that every component and ammunition manufacturer is producing as much as they can, given the raw material (components) and components (ammunition) that is available. And why wouldn’t you be at 100%+ now, it’s called making money, especially when the demand is there. Now an observation based on personal experience in reference to pricing. In reference to components and ammunition I don’t believe (may be wrong) that it’s the ammunition manufacturers or those companies supplying the components that are “gouging” the public. It maybe the wholesaler but most definitely the… Read more »

Laddyboy
Laddyboy
4 months ago

It is very frustrating when I go to buy ammunition.
However I do understand the reason. With the MILLIONS of NEW Gun Owners, the SUPPLY is being bought up at an EXPONENTIAL rate.
When will the LEAD PRODUCING COMPANIES IN AMERICA BE REOPENED. They were shuttered by 0b0z0!!!!

GomeznSA
GomeznSA
4 months ago
Reply to  Laddyboy

Laddy – I pointed out on another posting that if each of the new gun owners ‘only’ bought 100 rounds apiece. Figure some 7 MILLION of them, that adds up to a big chunk of the supply. Most likely the bulk of that is in common calibers as well. There was a fair amount available at a small gun show I went to today but IMHO most of the folks were trying to pad their bank accounts. I’m not willing to pay a buck (or more) for rounds that should be well south of 50 cents per – even in… Read more »

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago

Just spoke to Sportsmans warehouse in Roseburg Oregone. The clerk said that they are having a hard time getting ammo but they are getting it. He said that they get a truck and start unloading it and as they are putting it on the shelves people are buying it. He said last week they put 60,000 rounds out on the shelves and they were gone by the end of the day. People are even buying bullets and then walking up to the counter and asking for a gun that fits the box of bullets they have in their hand. Seems… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Thanks for posting that musicman44mag. It’s almost like current demand exceeds current manufacturing capacity.

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

‘Box of bullets’? You mean they are reloaders?

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

Clark,
Speaking strictly as myself, no association to AmmoLand. I’ve watched you on lots ofother forums you have an M.O..
You waste everybody’s time, all you do is attack grammar, spelling, and commonly understood vernacular. If you want a job as an editor go check the NYT. Otherwise, STFU.

Last edited 4 months ago by Dave in Fairfax
Don
Don
4 months ago

The problem is in the distribution. Wholesalers are gouging, retailers are gouging. When a store gets ammo in, the staff sets it aside for friends and family. Several on-line retailers are simply over-charging. CTD is charging $40 for a $12 box of 9mm. Walmart has been reasonable on .22 LR. They no longer sell 9mm, .38 or 5.56mm. If they did, it would be regular price.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Don

Don, you know it’s not “gouging” because you have been informed that word actually means something. Unfortunately, when Biden gets in office the government may very well get in the business of regulating pricing and then, when someone charges more than what some regulator has deemed appropriate, that person will be guilty of “gouging.” This type of regulation is the hallmark of Totalitarianism and they rely on the entitlement-based grievances of the masses to get into power. It is also the very thing that will prevent people from investing in more ammo manufacturing capacity. The retailers are not “over-charging” –… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

On December 17 the State of Texas told Cheaper Than Dirt they had to return $402,000 due to “price gouging.” I agree it is a supply and demand issue, the question is, should market alone determine prices. As much as it irritates me to see those prices, I would have to say yes. I will remember who took advantage of this though and I suspect a lot of others will as well.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Did Texas include ammo as a “necessity” under an emergency health order? Is so, they probably had some rules on pricing that CTD violated. That would be “gouging.”

I don’t agree with that type of government control.

I agree with you that the market should set the price and I understand why someone would not patronize a company they felt charged prices that were too high.

Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I disagree, I purchased 2 bricks of 22lr recently from a Orschlen store locally for about 7 cents a round. they COULD have charged a lot more but they sold it for their normal price and I appreciate that.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Based on the comments from people saying ammo is out of stock even at high prices, it appears as though your found an exception.

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago

AM3, I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with in JSMGC’s statement. You found someone who was willing to sell at less than market value. That is their prerogative, and as long as they don’t have a fiduciary interest to their stockholders to protect, perfectly alright. You prolly have a warm fuzzy for them based on that and will do more business in the future as a result. If they can do that without too much monetary loss, it’s a great sales technique. It builds customer loyalty, which is easy to lose and hard to regain. Neither of these things… Read more »

Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
4 months ago

Dave, I don’t disagree with much of what JMSG says. I find him well informed and thoughtful. I also agree that one store selling at “normal” prices does not automatically make all others out of line. I understand that market fluctuations and component prices affect the sales price. I will also confess that I haven’t spent a lot of time researching the legal parameters of price gouging. Having said that, 9mm prices going from 16 – 20 cents a round to 60 or 70 cents a round goes way beyond component inflation, (in my opinion. ) Looking at the dictionary… Read more »

Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
4 months ago

JSNMGC sorry, fat fingers, small phone!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Ha! The very least of our problems, friend.

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago

AM3, ABSOLUTELY remember who was naughty and nice and buy accordingly, that’s how capitalism works. The rise in prices prolly has little to do with component prices, it has to do with what the market will bear. The issue is that unless something is declared by law to be an essential item and that price increases due to some disaster won’t be tolerated by the government, gouging is the wrong term to use. You could call it “ripping off”, but once again it’s a free market, no one is FORCING you to buy at the stated price. We may not… Read more »

Knute
Knute
4 months ago

As always, those who can think ahead will be in front of those that cannot.Or perhaps “will not” is a better choice of words. 🙂

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

If 80 million people are trying to buy just 300 rounds in a month, that’s a demand of 24 billion in one month (versus less than 1 billion of domestic production for that month). Of course there are going to be disruptions in the market place.

I’m not trying to explain it to you Dave, but for some of the other folks – think about what dynamics result from that disconnect.

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

JSNMGC,

Yup, it’s the supply-demand thing that drives all commerce. From those with the goods to those with the need…for a price.

You can’t legislate or manifesto that simple truth away. It predates government. The better hunter has a better chance of reproducing, among other things.

It’s ALWAYS been like this. Wishing for a “fairer” world is a waste of air and time. Fairness is a human construct that has no place in the natural world.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Capitalism results in the least misery.

To get it’s start, Totalitarianism requires entitlement-based grievances.

Ansel Hazen
Ansel Hazen
4 months ago

Nothing that has happened in this year of insanity is the result of random events. A virus was released by a rogue government with the specific purpose to cause panic in every sector of the marketplace and to keep eyes off what was going on behind the scenes so that the progressive left had a clear path to rig an American election.The Anti-fa and BLM nonsense is part of this construct. Rioting and looting, burning and destroying businesses for no apparent reason is all part of it. They knew this would cause a run on ammo and supplies. They did… Read more »

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  Ansel Hazen

Your tinfoil hat needs new tinfoil. Loosen it up a bit next time.

Ansel Hazen
Ansel Hazen
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

Seems to me you haven’t been paying attention to the news.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Ansel Hazen

Have you contacted their BOD with a petition? What percent of their market cap do the shareholders in your group represent? By group, I mean you and the other people who are going to demand that a business do something.

Beobear
Beobear
4 months ago

From my own personal observations and having lived long enough to have seen this before with ammo, toilet paper, food, water, building supplies etc. these shortages are primarily a type of self fulfilling prophecy. People will hoard things that have limited supplies whether they actually need it or not. It’s the same reason retailers often sell products as “limited time only”. Be it a floor mop or a hamburger, people will buy it just because it may not be there the next time. Ammo is the same way because we (shooters in general) know it’s in short supply and we… Read more »

Vanns40
Vanns40
4 months ago
Reply to  Beobear

Absolutely correct on all points AND let’s not forget that NOTHING is increasing the price except the desire to make more profit. All involved in this are carefully calculating how far they can push the price and still have consumers purchase every round they put out there. When they go past that point you’ll, all of sudden, see “sales” start to pop up.

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  Beobear

Uh? Yeah! Uh-huh! Bad case scenario #1) I’m going to leave the last three boxes of ammo sitting on a shelf in a store then some pantie-fa pumpkin or other lunatic walks in behind me in purchases it?
Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/ammo-demand-message-federal-cci-speer-remington/#ixzz6hAFkIRls
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

“Every time we go to the store and see those last few boxes of ammo on the shelf and buy it, we are simply fueling the shortage.”

Don’t let us catch you in the toilet paper isle.

Last edited 4 months ago by USMC0351Grunt
Ronnie
Ronnie
4 months ago

Okay – Well Nice to see your making lots of ammo- But – who Determines what store gets HOW MANY BOXES / CASES?– WHY ARE THE PRICES SO DAMN HIGH !!! Clearly Your making a HUGE PROFIT with the ORDERS – So are YOU INCREASING THE PRICES TO TAKE – ADVANTAGE OF US ALL !!– Thats Not showing MUCH – INTEGRITY !! Now You Need to SHOW US ALL – How the Rest of the Process is AFTER IT LEAVES YOUR FACTORIES ! I want to know WHO GETS THE AMMO AFTER YOU SHIP ! Dose it Go to ANOTHER… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

Unbelievable.

hippybiker
hippybiker
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Ronnie, Not to take a crap on your birthday cake but there is this evil thing called Inflation! Sadly, the government refuses to release the real Inflation rate. That’s why they only gave us a 1.3% raise on our Social Security for next year. So, you ask. How does that relate to us. I’ll explain. When I first started reloading in the 1970s powder on average was about 4 to 5 dollars a pound. Sadly, I just ordered 4 lbs of WW 748 ball for 5.56 and 7.62. It was 25 dollars a pound. Also, back then, primers were 8… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  hippybiker

It’s not inflation.

Finnky
Finnky
4 months ago
Reply to  hippybiker

@hippybiker – If you are worrying about inflation, you haven’t seen anything yet. This year’s deficit spending and economic slowdown will lead to dramatic inflation when people are getting out again.
US debt held by China is likely to blow up in our face. At that point the dollar will tank making anything we import shoot up in price. Of course US produced commodities and anything that can be exported will see prices rise as we compete on the global markets.

RodCK
RodCK
4 months ago
Reply to  hippybiker

You need to stock up 2 years before a Presidental Election. Because you never know what will happen! (Just my opinion)

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  RodCK

And now may be to late to even try that.

WhiteRose
WhiteRose
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

Your prejudice is overriding clarity of conditions: inflation, the petro-dollar is worth less and less and less; if you waited to purchase now, you are way too late; the free market defines the real value of commerce; materials used for production are imported from somewhere; copper has gone up in price; the only thing stagnated are wages for workers; ports of entry are shut down much of the time….and yes the producer gets to decide to whom they sell and so on and so forth until it gets to you; that’s the market of things as it really exists…and yes… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  WhiteRose

It’s not inflation.

Pezlacular
Pezlacular
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

You missed supply and demand in school didn’t you. It’s capitalism 101, as products that are in demand become scarce prices rise in order to meet that demand. Whether that be by outbidding another retailer for the product, paying extra shipping to get it faster or hiring more people to meet demand. You can always go to China but I doubt they would allow you as a citizen to own ammunition let alone a firearm, lol

Boz
Boz
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

I believe that distributors are causing the increase and making most of the profit, not manufacturers or end retailers.

Don
Don
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

It goes to distributors, then to retail outlets. It is the middlemen that are jerking our chains. I have bought .22 LR ammo at Walmart for regular price. Walmart just doesn’t sell the pistol or rifle ammo I need.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Don

No one is jerking your chain. See my response to your comment above – the one you started with “The problem is . . .”

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

THEN why DON’T you START your OWN ammo COMPANY and show US all how TO run A BUSINESS? P.S. Put down the bong before posting.

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago
Reply to  Ronnie

Ronnie, here is a big hint. Sounds like you should start living within your means and stop blaming others for your problems with there not being a direct connection between the two. And a few psych meds might be a good idea also.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago

It’s the smokeless powder that we should all be concerned about. We import it, and if that gets shut down we’re all carrying clubs.

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago

Perhaps you should find out what St Marks is and what they produce and where their facilities are.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Perhaps you should find out where they get their smokeless powder. Because they do NOT manufacture it there. They might mix their own concoction, but they do not manufacture smokeless powder.

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago

Anything else you want to pull out of your ass, Elisa dear?

ST. MARKS POWDER Commercial BALL POWDER (gd-ots.com)

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Just the facts, boy. Just the facts. They might mix their own, but the smokeless powder itself is imported. There’s only two manufacturers of smokeless powder in the U.S., and they primarily serve the military. There are NO smokeless powder manufacturers that serve the civilian market here. I had to research this issue when we wrote our “Ammunition Availability Act” for our 2015 legislative session. We import ALL of our smokeless powder for the civilian market from 18 different countries. I’ve got the numbers and I’ve done my research. You might try doing a little research before you attempt to… Read more »

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Their primary customer is the federal government. AS I SAID. The tiny amount they sell to the civilian market can be shut off in a nanosecond.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Ahole.
There are only TWO plants in the United States that manufacture smokeless propellant to load ammunition for our firearms. All else is imported, from Canada, Scandinavia, Europe, Israel, and Australia primarily.
These two plants are both owned by giant defense and government contractors for whom sales of powder for civilian ammunition consumption is but a tiny fraction of their business.
One is the General Dynamics plant in St. Marks, Florida, which produces for Hodgden, Winchester and others, and the Alliant plant in Connecticut which produces for the Alliant family of companies and for the Lake City Arsenal (currently under Alliant management).

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Now I see where the confusion on this lies….. In an earlier post, I pointed this out: My point remains the same. Do you have any clue how easy biden and his flying monkeys can shut this down? GENERAL DYNAMICS is beholden to the federal government. The civilian market, for them, is small potatoes and secondary. Here is what I said in another thread here: “There are only TWO plants in the United States that manufacture smokeless propellant to load ammunition for our firearms. All else is imported, from Canada, Scandinavia, Europe, Israel, and Australia primarily. These two plants are both owned… Read more »

Don
Don
4 months ago

Much of the powder is domestically sourced.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  Don

WRONG. They might mix their own, but the smokeless powder itself is imported. There’s only two manufacturers of smokeless powder in the U.S., and they primarily serve the military. There are NO smokeless powder manufacturers that serve the civilian market here. I had to research this issue when we wrote our “Ammunition Availability Act” for our 2015 legislative session. We import ALL of our smokeless powder for the civilian market from 18 different countries. I’ve got the numbers and I’ve done my research. You might try doing a little research before you attempt to slap someone like me down.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago

There are only TWO plants in the United States that manufacture smokeless propellant to load ammunition for our firearms. All else is imported, from Canada, Scandinavia, Europe, Israel, and Australia primarily.

These two plants are both owned by giant defense and government contractors for whom sales of powder for civilian ammunition consumption is but a tiny fraction of their business.

One is the General Dynamics plant in St. Marks, Florida, which produces for Hodgden, Winchester and others, and the Alliant plant in Connecticut which produces for the Alliant family of companies and for the Lake City Arsenal (currently under Alliant management).

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago

Thanks. I get so tired of dealing with people who THINK they know everything, when they haven’t even lifted a finger to research the issue. I had to dig into this and I’ve even got the numbers. I can tell you which countries we buy it from, I can tell you how much we buy from each of those countries, and I can tell you how much money we spend on it.

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago

You can tell us all this information and yet you have yet to write something specific. I have provided specific information, unlike you. But, you keep on doing what you do so well, Elisa, dear.

Knute
Knute
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

I have some specific information for you, straight from the Hodgdon website.
Quote:
“Hodgdon Powder Company offices are located at 6430 Vista Drive in Shawnee, Kansas. The Powder magazine, packaging and manufacturing facilities are maintained about 140 miles southwest of the main office, in Herington, Kansas. Additional magazine space, located on a closed military base, is also leased from the City of Topeka, Kansas.”

It would appear that, as usual, any information from government sources is highly suspect. Long on words and innuendo, but short on facts. As usual… 🙂

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Knute

Hodgdon does not manufacture smokeless gun powder.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

THANK YOU! People seem really confused about who actually manufactures smokeless powder here in the U.S. For instance, here in Montana we have “Western Powders”, a rather large facility in Miles City, MT. They import ALL of their smokeless powders, then they mix it into their own patented formula. I can’t even tell you how many thousands of arguments I’ve had over this issue alone. Thanks for your input, JSNMGC. Some people need a man to inform them, rather than a stupid girl like me.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

No problem. I’m working on state legislation similar to the project you worked on some time ago. I was going to have to get this information anyhow, so I accelerated my information gathering.

To get the information, I called Hodgdon today and spoke to a person in their technical department. He was pleasant, well-informed, and provided straight-forward answers.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Would you like some numbers on which countries, how many Kg’s and how much money we’re spending on smokeless powder imports? I did this research in 2015, so I don’t have numbers for each year since then, but I have all the rest broken down in a spreadsheet. It would save you the hours and days I spent researching this issue, and I’m more than happy to share it if you think it might help in your endeavor.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

Yes – thanks. My project is a little different from yours (I think), but that information would be helpful.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

ok, I’m going to need your email address to send this spreadsheet. Further, have you examined our “Ammunition Availability Act” of 2015? You may find that useful as well. I can forward the link to that legislation, as well as some of our notes on the tax issues related to this.
You can email me your address if you like at mssaleg (at) gmail (dot) com

Last edited 4 months ago by Elisa Delaurenti
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago

I remember you referencing it, but I have not read it.

I’m not sure of the best way to work the logistics of this, but in Fairfax, would you mind providing Elisa my email address offline (i.e., privately)?

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Yes, please, .

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  Knute

Hodgdon does not manufacture smokeless powder.

Get Out
Get Out
4 months ago

This statement is in the link Knute provided. Hodgdon started out selling surplus powder but the link indicates they develop and manufacture the powders today.

“Today, Hodgdon smokeless propellants are developed and manufactured to meet the needs of every reloader. The powder that started Bruce Hodgdon’s business, H4895, is still produced and sold along with world-class powders available for just about any Rifle, Handgun, and Shotshell load.”

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  Get Out

How many times do I need to repeat this: HODGDON DOES NOT MANUFACTURE SMOKELESS POWDER.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Get Out

The information in the link does not say they manufacture smokeless powder. That is why I called them.

They say that their smokeless propellants are manufactured, but they don’t say they (Hodgdon) are the company that manufactures them.

Sometimes its best just to say “Ah, my apologies” and move on with life.

Hodgdon does not manufacture smokeless gun powder.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
4 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

And you keep ignoring the facts, ronny-boy. You’ve referenced “MARKS” powders, which I already pointed out as GENERAL DYNAMICS, a FEDERAL DEFENSE CONTRACTOR that can be shut down in a nanosecond should they decide to cut us off. I’ve laid out some very specific FACTS here, and you just ignore them. Once again, you dimwit…… MARKS IS OWNED BY GENERAL DYNAMICS, ONE OF ONLY TWO MANUFACTURERS OF SMOKELESS POWDER IN THE U.S., BEING CONTROLLED BY THE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GIVES THEM. I can recognize that you attempted to foggy the issue, but the fact remains that THERE… Read more »

RoyD
RoyD
4 months ago

Just remember, I am here for you whenever needed Elisa, Dear.

dollarzz
dollarzz
4 months ago

i do reloading when will we start seeing small pistol primers come back.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  dollarzz

When will we see CCI #41 come back.

RodCK
RodCK
4 months ago
Reply to  dollarzz

I was told 1year out! and that is probably a good Estimation!

Last edited 4 months ago by RodCK
musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago

Don’t bother with Sportsmans warehouse in Roseburg. I just tried to order a box and they took all my credit info. and address and when I hit the final button to order it told me that the product I ordered was no longer available and to remove it from my cart.

uncle dudley
uncle dudley
4 months ago

So they are making ammo every hour of every day that’s, great my question is why such a large increase in price if you can find ammo at your favorite store or online.
I understand economics and I understand that there is a bunch of new gun owners in the country but does it justify such an increase in retail prices of ammo, after all it’s not toilet paper why so hard to find it on the store shelves?

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  uncle dudley

Get everything you can get. It’s the American way and when the chips are down, kick them before you get all you can get. Look at the price of toilet paper during the TP crisis. I still cant find lysol spray in the can but when it first hit I could buy it but it was 25 bucks a can. 1 part bleach and 3 parts water. You can actually drink it but don’t, your government already puts bleach in it so when you add the 3 parts water it isn’t enough but it is enough to kill the fluoride… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by musicman44mag
WhiteRose
WhiteRose
4 months ago
Reply to  uncle dudley

short story…I went to Shoot Straight Range and Store intending to use their range. As I entered the store there was a line from the far end of the store to the front door…..for AMMO. I have never seen this before. The following week they did not have ammo for the range either. In the Range, the lanes were filled with all NEWBIES, like totally new shooters with no idea how to handle their newly purchased weapons. I went to another store near my home to purchase an accessory for my rail and as I entered the owner stated before… Read more »

RodCK
RodCK
4 months ago
Reply to  WhiteRose

It is about scary New gun owners with no safety or gun training at all! How will they handle themselves in an emergency? Most of them won’t be able to find the controls on their firearms let alone be able to have trigger caution.

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  RodCK

OH NO! And how about those who vote without reading the candidate guide? Or use a fire extinguisher without reading the owner’s manual first? Or even those who ride in the bed of a pickup truck? The horrors! Better get Uncle Sam involved; he will fix everything! NOT!

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

“There oughtta be a law!”

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

lol

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  RodCK

Yeah, just like all those democraps that want to ban our scary military looking semi-autos? It just sucks living in a free country where any citizen can seek out freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Last edited 4 months ago by USMC0351Grunt
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  uncle dudley

You don’t understand economics.

The price being asked is the price being paid. It’s called the “clearing price” in economics.

It’s hard to find because the demand is high enough that people will buy it even at the higher prices.

bsbang
bsbang
4 months ago

I didn’t hear him say “we’re SHIPPING all the ammo we make.” I still think the ammo mfrs are playing OPEC – using/making excuses to triple the price of their product. They are, after all, in business.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  bsbang

Have you reviewed their publicly available financial statements? Do you understand financial statements?

Conspiracy theorists are over-represented in the firearm community.

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I’m curious have you ? And could you show us these financial statements ? I would like to even know where I could be directed to look at the financials ? This could help to explain the circumstances we’re seeing. And put many at ease.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Arny

Yes, I have. All amounts are stated in millions and note that not all of their business is “shooting sports”: From their Income Statement: Sales increased 29.2%, from 445.0 in their quarter ended 9/29/19 to 575.2 in their quarter ended 9/27/20. Of the total sales increase, 79.4 million was from their shooting sports division. Their EBIT increased 74% from 1.7 to 75.3 during the same time periods. You can read their analysis of the increase in their MD&A.   From their Statement of Cash Flows Cash Flow from Operations increased from negative 8.2 in the quarter ended 9/29/19 to a positive 197.8… Read more »

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Thanks

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Arny

You’re welcome.

Vince
Vince
4 months ago

i do understand there are 7 million new gun owners but this shortage has gone on for too long to be naturally occurring in a capitalistic society.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Vince

Vince, There is no force in this world like that of a woman who is concerned there will be no toilet paper available. Short term demand is up not only because of the first-time gun buyers, but the demand is also driven by: Guys who would have wanted to buy additional ammo some time ago, as well as other “prep” items, but their wives said no to the expenditures. When those women experienced the toilet paper shortage, they gave their husbands the green light to buy “preps,” including ammo. When people saw video after video of violent rioters in the streets and… Read more »

Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I have a problem with their wives said no. It is not the wives responsibility to provide for and protect the family therefore if they need the ammo they should buy it, within reason. You gotta eat but you don’t eat much when you are dead because you didn’t have enough ammo.

Last edited 4 months ago by musicman44mag
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

I couldn’t care less how they run their households.

I like freedom.

The fact you don’t like it doesn’t change the fact that it exists and was one of many reasons there was a huge spike in demand.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I don’t understand where you think I don’t like freedom. I pointed out that he doesn’t have freedom because she determines if he can buy bullets or not. You stated that you could care less how they run their households but you are the one that put the household in the equation. If only one person decides in the marriage then the other is not free. Doesn’t that make sense? It’s a team effort and common sense as well as logic should dictate if we buy or need bullets or or toilet paper. I think that the biggest percentage of… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

I believe:

  • You like freedom
  • You are a good person

I like freedom too, and part of my view of freedom is that I don’t care one bit how other people run their households.

I put the household issue in the equation because I know for a fact that it is one of the dynamics driving the demand – people who wanted to buy before were constrained by their spouse. When the spouse saw that toilet paper was not readily available it opened that person’s eyes to all sorts of possibilities.

Peace brother.

RodCK
RodCK
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I totally agree!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

When I wrote “the fact that you don’t like it” – the “it” I was referring to was “the wives saying no.” You said you had a problem with that. Looking back at the exchange, I can see how you thought I was saying that you don’t like freedom.

I don’t have a problem with how other people run their households:

  • Some husband say “no” to their wives buying more shoes
  • Some wives say “no” to their husbands buying ammo.

I couldn’t care less.

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

…and everyone else in THIS thread… Is this pissing match over with, or should we drop down 20 more comments to start re-reading the comments to the story?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Vince

In addition to the items I listed in my previous post, investors are also looking at:

  • The probability that AmmoLand readers will get their wish and Biden’s administration will impose socialist price controls;
  • The probability that Biden’s administration will increase corporate taxes;
  • The probability that Biden’s administration will increase environmental regulations that will negatively affect ammo producers; and
  • The probability that Biden’s administration will create an environment that is more friendly to the economy-destroying demands of labor unions
Last edited 4 months ago by JSNMGC
musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I don’t see where anything liden does will be good for the economy when it’s all about lining their pockets. Look at obummer and solyndra. Demonrats depend on the unions for votes so I am not to sure they really want to piss them off but we will see. Maybe with the change to illegals can vote, supreme court, no electoral college and we can rig the election anyway we want and we have enough demonrat judges in place to back us and deny your legal request for review of the voter fraud, they will screw the unions because they… Read more »

RodCK
RodCK
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Biden is not even in office yet and look at the total mess we are in it is Totally Despicable!!!!
It will be a long 4 years!!!! (Just My Opinion)

Superman
Superman
4 months ago
Reply to  RodCK

The USA will be lucky to exist in four years.

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  Superman

Tell that to the well over 22 Million Veterans whom are mostly stocked, locked and ready to rock?

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
4 months ago
Reply to  Vince

It might be hard to get started now but you could always learn to reload. There are garage sales going on even during the made up epidemic and you can find all kinds of gear, powder, cases and other things that you need to make your own. It’s only going to get more expensive. When the first shortage came along that I am aware of about 13 or more years ago, I would buy 525 22lr bullets for around 19 bucks everywhere. Then those same bullets were selling for 100 dollars and of course a little less but I didn’t… Read more »

WhiteRose
WhiteRose
4 months ago
Reply to  Vince

opinion without support

Matt in Oklahoma
Matt in Oklahoma
4 months ago

It’s a challenging year and all companies are doing what they can.
Folks just like to hear their guns flap. He and others shouldn’t listen

nrringlee
nrringlee
4 months ago

And leftists know this. Thankfully much of our industrial base for the firearms industry has moved to friendly turf like AZ, MO, AR, MS, AL and SC, etc where friendly state governments will not cooperate with federal harassment of the plants and distribution. But our administrative (deep) state at the federal level is already jumping ship and turning back to their Bolshevik ways and it is they who will throw the proverbial wrench in to the works. By using federal regulations, administrative “law” they can slow down or stop the supply chain as a means to disarm people. And they… Read more »

Magnum
Magnum
4 months ago

Not everyone uses 9mm!

Ltbdb
Ltbdb
4 months ago
Reply to  Magnum

Really, is that all you got from this video?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Ltbdb

Ltbdb, this conversation about ammo supply and demand is difficult for a number of reasons. The situation has been explained over and over and over again. People have “feelings” and no video or explanation of how economics work or how businesses make rational investment decisions or how Americans still have freedom from socialist price controls is going to change people’s minds. They “feel” there is something going on and they “feel” entitled to buy as much ammo as they want, when they want it, and at the price they “feel is fair.” They hate multi-national companies, they hate the free… Read more »

HikerJohn316
HikerJohn316
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

London Theatre Database?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  HikerJohn316

You will have to ask Ltbdb.

Finnky
Finnky
4 months ago
Reply to  Magnum

Ammo manufacturers won’t bother switching their production lines to oddball calibers when they’re already running full speed and selling every round. We’ll probably only get common calibers through at least 2021.
Prepare to practice with 22, 9mm, 40cal, 556, or 7.62 x (39 or 51) if you haven’t hoarded what you need.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Finnky

What percent of AmmoLand readers understand changeovers and set-up times, and the associated cost (including cost of non-production)?

USMC0351Grunt
USMC0351Grunt
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

That’s manufacturing 101… Right after Cost Analysis 101 and Business Planning 101… Right before you run smack into the IRS!

Arny
Arny
4 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

That cost you speak of is taken into accountability. Which is why you’re paying $65 a box. They don’t lose money. But why waste the time when you have more demand than you can handle for not changing your setup. At the same time running the same caliber over & over you’ll still have downtime replacing worn equipment (dies, etc have a certain amount of usage). What will be the cost to replace them ? Can you even replace them ? Will it be worth replacing ? And I would also be willing to guess quality control will drop. Looking… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
4 months ago
Reply to  Arny

The cost is a consideration they take into account when making the decision to convert from one caliber to another. They may decide to just keep cranking 9mm and not changeover to .380 auto because the demand for 9mm is greater than their production capacity so they can avoid the changeover cost. Regarding you other comments, I asked the question about what percent of the readers understand what goes into a changeover because there is an incredible amount of entitlement throughout the ammo pricing discussions. Sometimes people state “Not everyone uses 9mm!” Yes, and people who want ammo in those… Read more »