Mandatory Firearms Training for a Constitutional Right!? ~ VIDEO

Target With Bullet Holes
Mandatory Firearms Training for a Constitutional Right!? ~ VIDEO

Texas – -( The constitutional carry vote in Texas has ignited a conversation about the possible value of government-mandating firearms training in the gun community.

While most gun rights advocates would be in lockstep agreement that mandatory training to exercise any gun right is an unconstitutional infringement, many gun owners and even some professional instructors feel that the benefits of mandatory training outweigh the negatives. I disagree with the latter group. This is a position that I’ve held for as long as I can recall, despite the high value I place on education and training. This is what I had to say on the topic in 2014:

“Mandatory Gun Training”

“As someone who’s primary source of income for most of his adult life has been teaching people defensive firearms skills, it surprises some people that I am Against Mandatory Firearms Training in order to own, purchase or carry a firearm of any kind. I am unaware of any state mandated program that meets the total amount of education I think someone should get before they choose to carry a firearm for defense. Presentation from the Holster, for example, is a fundamental skill that anyone and everyone should develop before they ever believe that it is appropriate for them to carry a firearm in public for defensive purposes. Yet, how many state permit processes require it? If you talked to 10 instructors, you’d get 10 different lists of things that any reasonable person should learn and practice before carrying a gun.”

“I honestly have no faith in an administrative bureaucracy to develop an adequate mandated course that would be practical on the scale necessary. If I were given the choice tomorrow between establishing a national standard and designing it myself or abolishing training requirements, I would choose the latter. I believe that when you give someone a certificate of training (especially with a permit to do something) those people often believe that they have met their obligation, that the obligatory class was well designed and they do not need to do anything else. Put simply: Most people have too much faith in the Government. They operate under the illusion that simply because their state trusts the process, the process must be good enough. I think that if you take away that illusion, if you take away the opportunity for people to believe that they have done enough, people will seek out more training than could ever be mandated. I think the surge in public opinion inside the firearms community about the value of getting thorough professional training and conducting relatively frequent practice would be overwhelming. Counter-Intuitively, I believe that removing mandatory minimum training would result in an over-all increase in the average amount of training and practice that people carrying guns have.”

My position on the topic hasn’t changed since then, but I think that some further education for well-intentioned instructors and gun owners is warranted.

When I made the argument above, I was doing it based on my own observations as a professional educator in this space for, at the time, about 13 years. I’ve often told people that the first place I could legally carry a firearm for defense was Vermont, the first Constitutional Carry State. When I moved there in 1990, I began carrying without any significant formal training such as I would recommend, but I had studied and practiced the component skills and appropriate use of force issues extensively and over an extended period of time. No doubt, I was a bit overconfident and still under-educated, but I don’t think that the equivalent of the NRA Basic Pistol Course or the Texas LTC Program would’ve increased my preparation level in any significant way. I didn’t need a government-mandated lowest common denominator class, I needed the type of armed defense specific courses that are widely available today and almost unheard of in the days before the “shall issue revolution” that dramatically expanded concealed carry in our country… which was still a few years away.

Today, gun owners have an unbelievable number of options available to them. From full curricula supported by online learning, books, and specific targets like the Defensive Shooting Fundamentals program I wrote for USCCA, which is offered by hundreds of instructors around the country. To well-run defensive shooting, classes run on the weekends by local instructors at ranges in every state whose names we will never know. There are dozens of major training facilities, a plethora of well-constructed modern indoor ranges, and more “big name” instructors offering their proprietary classes every weekend this spring than there were striker-fired gun models available when I started carrying. The atmosphere has changed too. Our community is much more proactive and honest in regard to the importance of education and training than we were 30 years ago.

Constitutional Carry Map March 2021
Constitutional Carry Map March 2021

The time is right for the Constitutional Carry Wave to be pushing across our Nation.

This is the incremental regaining of lost rights that we need. It is happening on the back of the demonstrated ability of Americans to responsibly exercise the carry rights that have been restored, in most States, through advocacy and major court wins like McDonald and Heller. And, make no mistake, that responsibility has been because of us, not low-level mandatory training. If nothing else, the growth of the private sector training industry that has paralleled the growth of Defensive Concealed Carry indicates that. Supply and Demand is the rule of the private sector.

Obviously, there are some instructors who may not have the best reasons for being against Permitless Carry. John Crump has recently reported on a specific group of LTC instructors in Texas who have joined with Texas Gun Sense to formally oppose the bill working its way to the Governor’s desk. It must be assumed that some of them sincerely believe that mandatory training will save lives… but, I have no doubt that some are motivated purely by selfish business interests. Unfortunately, there are many “instructors” who generate a lot of revenue solely from providing government-mandated classes. Some provide a necessary evil service. Others simply could not create demand for their training on the open market. I’ve dealt with their work to undermine Constitutional Carry for a long time in many states. I don’t know any of the Texas Instructors opposing the current bill personally, but in a 2019 social media comment, I chastised one of the instructors lamenting the possible effect on his business of a soon-to-be-signed permitless carry law in another state with the following:

“Hopefully, as businessmen, we are already espousing the idea that Training SHOULD be an obligation of any responsible gun owner, especially one claiming an interest in defensive-use of a gun… if you’re selling the permit classes based on a legal obligation, you’re already on thin ice ethically…. unless you are in favor of mandatory training.”

They say that “everyone’s got an opinion”, but I think it is obviously true that not all opinions are equal. Some are educated and well-defended, others come from ignorance and the quip “we can agree to disagree” because they are defensive. In this case, my opinion on the value of mandatory training doesn’t have to be the focus of the conversation for those who might want to disagree with me. Last year, the Rand Corporation released a study that didn’t get nearly as much attention as I think it deserved. The study was released almost exactly a year ago and it was titled “The Effects of Firearm Safety Training Requirements”. The results of the study are pretty damning. The study should be required reading for anyone who is a proponent of mandatory firearms training, whether they are gun owners or anti-gunners like Texas Gun Sense. While many of us can Full Stop the conversation at “Mandatory Training is an Infringement”, we can’t expect everyone to agree with that position. Pointing out that government-mandated training isn’t effective at achieving the goals they say they are interested in is probably a better tactic.

Here are some of my thoughts about the highlights of this study, which are summarized in the chart below:

Firearms Training Requirements and Gun Self Defense Outcomes
Firearms Training Requirements and Gun Self Defense Outcomes

“…The Motivations Of The Individuals Who Receive Firearm Training Could Affect The Overall Impact Of The Training Programs.”

It is well established that the gun community generally resents and resists any attempt to restrict or hinder the free exercise of gun rights in the United States. Common sense informs us that people who resent being told that they must take a class are simply not going to get as much out of that class as someone who voluntarily enrolls in it or engages in it out of their own perceived need. Between the two lies the mindset of a student taking a class because he was advised to take it by a friend or trusted source.
Regardless of how good the content and presentation of information is in a given class, the attitude of the student going into it will have much to do with its success. And, we all know that content and teacher ability vary dramatically from class to class, with the worst examples almost always being at the lowest levels of education… particularly the “required” classes. Again, we are talking about mandatory firearms training, not the value of training and education that is sought out.

“The Impact Of Safety Training On Key Outcomes Depends On The Content Of The Programs, The Effectiveness Of The Programs In Conveying Pertinent Information, And The Number Of Gun Owners Who Then Modify Their Behavior Based On The Information Presented In The Training.”

Classes that are seen as requirements to obtain a Concealed Carry License or even to own a firearm are quite often “lowest common denominator” classes with entry-level instructors delivering material that was developed with a number of competing concerns, only one of which is the transfer of meaningful information and changing student behaviors. Mandatory Firearms Training is almost always very generalized and focused primarily on one or more of three things: passing a test, meeting a time requirement or conveying information in regard to the firearms laws of the jurisdiction. This isn’t to say that there are not outstanding educators teaching CCW Courses… but, even the best of them is stuck teaching curricula that barely even attempt to cover the topic of armed defense in the public space.

I am unaware of a mandatory course curriculum that requires one to present a handgun from a holster after processing some type of novel information and delivering a multiple-round burst of fire to a chest-sized target at a distance of between 9 and 15 feet. This is as close as we could get to a “most likely performance need” in a concealed carry defensive gun use that involves shooting a threat that needs to be physically stopped… but, nothing of the sort is required by any State or other Jurisdiction that I am aware of.

Another problem with the mandatory firearms training that currently exists in many places is that those who would be positively disposed towards taking a course even it were mandated would most likely be the type of people who would put stock in the value of the courses… and they might possibly assume that because they have taken the required course and passed successfully, they are now Good to Go. And, it is a fact that the majority of individuals who take required training to get their carry permits do not go on to seek further training.

Again, I am certainly not lobbying for an increase in any training requirement. Requiring a truly comprehensive training program that I, after two almost two decades as a full-time armed defense educator, would feel meets a “minimum standard” would require far more time and money than could ever be considered a reasonable requirement for the exercise of a Constitutionally protected natural right!

Mandatory Firearms Training is an infringement, but any responsible gun owner should agree that education, training, and practice should be sought after by any gun owner, appropriate to the firearms they own and their intended uses of them. These are the competing issues for anyone truly interested in promulgating “gun safety” and increasing the average responsibility level of the average gun owner and why it will probably never be successfully done from outside of the community. The best way to encourage increased education and risk mitigation in the gun community is by changing the culture around such things, not through legislation.

“Thus, Credible Messengers Who Promote Safe Storage Practices Might Be More Likely To Change The Behavior Of Gun Owners Than Are Noncredible Messengers Who Promote Safe Storage.”

As the research indicates, pro-Gun Control Politicians, Celebrities, and even those injured or who have lost family members due to negative outcomes with firearms are not likely to influence the behavior and opinions of gun owners around safety practices nearly as much as the advice they receive from a trusted source or mentor. All the better if that advice comes in the form of an example to be followed and not just through lectures or talking points. Thoughts and conventions around safe gun handling and ownership have evolved greatly over the past 30 years as gun ownership has expanded and we have seen a dramatic increase in the number of people carrying or staging guns for defensive use. Thankfully, there are countless organizations, schools, instructors, and community leaders who offer those examples along with best practices for any variety of circumstances facing gun owners. I am proud to be affiliated with or supportive of, the work of many of these, including Personal Defense NetworkUnited States Concealed Carry AssociationWalk The Talk AmericaNational Shooting Sports FoundationGuns For EveryoneBlack Guns Matter, and, of course, Second Amendment Organization.  2AO’s official stance on mandatory training is spelled out with over 50 other Position Statements at

Mandatory Training for Ownership? (Against)

The Second Amendment Organization believes that, because there is no provision in the Second Amendment for a training requirement prior to exercise the right to keep and bear arms, the establishment of such a requirement to own a firearm would be a severe infringement on that right.

Some people outside of the gun community can’t understand how a training requirement shouldn’t be an obvious precursor to firearms. They make comparisons to Guns & Cars (completely inappropriate in this case) or want to ignore the reality of the Second Amendment restriction against infringements… perhaps because gun owners are so obviously infringed already. Thankfully, there is no available evidence that a lack of mandated training increases risk… and there is clear reason to believe that gun owners are made more responsible and more capable through participating in voluntary education.

All that said, let us get back to the contention over this group of Instructors in Texas who are arguing against freedom. I recognize that this is a very complex area for some people, including everyday gun owners who just want the world to be safer… and own guns for that very reason. The belief that training, education, and practice are important parts of gun ownership should be universal. Fellow Second Amendment Organization Board Member, and professional defensive shooting instructor, Kevin Dixie joined me Thursday in a video discussion (above) about why neither one of us believe that the government should mandate training to own, use or carry firearms BUT they do feel strongly that every gun owner has an obligation to be educated and practiced. Rights come with Responsibilities. If gun owners do not demonstrate responsibility and a sincere desire to reduce negative outcomes associated with firearms, others will seek to legislate their version of responsibility upon us… or, as is the case right now in Texas, will work to oppose freedom when they don’t trust us.

About Rob Pincus

Rob Pincus has been educating people about defensive shooting and related personal defense topics for over two decades. He is the Executive Director of the Personal Defense Network and the owner of I.C.E. Training Company. He has authored several books, produced over 100 training DVDs, appeared on several TV & Radio shows, and trained military, law enforcement, and armed individuals around the world. His advice focuses on efficiency and practicality based on his own experiences and continuing research of both real-world events and cutting-edge training practices.

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There is a lot I would like to say but I will settle for this: Regarding this last sentence: “If gun owners do not demonstrate responsibility and a sincere desire to reduce negative outcomes associated with firearms, others will seek to legislate their version of responsibility upon us… or, as is the case right now in Texas, will work to oppose freedom when they don’t trust us.” Listen up, DUMB ASS, the crimes and killing aren’t being done by people who obey the law. So those legislative efforts of those “others” isn’t going to markedly reduce the crime and killing.… Read more »


+1. But only because I cannot vote more than once!
I might add this:
“will work to oppose freedom when they don’t trust us”
WTF? Is this author foolish enough to believe that the Antis will EVER trust a gun owner, no matter what we do, or do not, do?
It would appear he is. Well, as I think PT Barnum said: “there’s a sucker born every minute”. Don’t be one of them. Disbelieve nonsense like this, no matter how pretty his publicity photos might be.


you are not a democrat, then you make up fake names and addresses and vote often


I do believe that Mr. Pincus has already used up all of his credibility points on 2A matters.


remember the 3% who faught the government were outnumbered by loyalists, the difference was they were willing to give their lives rather than be slaves of the state. Our current government has decided educated people wont do as told so they sabotaged education and let crime cause feer,obummer letting violent criminals out because they are black,that IS racism, what about the poor white serial killers??

Roland T. Gunner

Very concise and well stated.


Forget it Pincus. You have shown us who you really are, we are not going to kiss and make up.

Just go away and grift somewhere else.

Also Ammoland, ENOUGH! Stop promoting this clown or it may well reflect on you.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hazcat

This. This is exactly what I was going to write. Nicely said, Hazcat. The only reason I come to Ammoland now is when someone tells me I have to see Pinky’s latest train wreck.


After skimming through this article, I’m reminded of the the old axiom; If you can’t convince them with facts, baffle them with bull s#!t.
Not to mention typical Pincus, very, very long winded!


Rob, A long time ago I signed up for and received a number, I don’t remember 6, 8, 10 videos of yours that I thought were great. I loaned them to a co-worker so she and her husband could gain knowledge from them and they liked them. My oldest son also watched them and thought they were good. They are still around here someplace and I would not hesitate to give them to someone for the knowledge contained within them. But that’s not what is at issue here. The issue here is a political one and I and others think… Read more »

uncle dudley

Privilege verses a right, driving a car is a privilege, owning a firearm and carrying it is a right.
None of the governments business about my rights.


I beg to differ. Government has a role in insuring that no-one else infringes upon your rights. After all isn’t mutual aid and protection a large part of why humans form social groups?


Tangent: there may be a 9th amendment argument for the right to travel by vehicle on a roadway.


Pincus? is that guy still around? His views appear to be the ones he thinks will give him the most favorable consideration.

American Patriot

Training? Check my DD214!


I don’t think anyone teaches safety like the military.


We had a DI who was death on safety, that’s the way I taught my kids.

Roland T. Gunner

He hsd me right up to the end, then with the “responsible gun owners preventing negative outcomes” shtick he blew it. Roght there, the implication is, gun owners have to meet HIS measurement of responsibility to be allowed to excercise their rights. How did he even become recognized as an “expert” anyway? Just started teaching classes one day? Too many “experts” and teachers with no real credentials or experience.


More blah, blah, blah. Mandatory gun safety lessons are just another way to register gun owners for the day of confiscation. Rights are rights. Yes, you should know which direction the barrel should point before firing your gun. MOST if not ALL training goes into the toilet when the Adrenalin level goes too high. There was a case in Viet-nam where a well trained officer was being dragged out of his tent by a tiger. He was trying to free himself by beating the tiger on the head with his .45 pistol. And I’m pretty sure it wasn’t because he… Read more »


“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly.

But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.”
Marcus Tullius Cicero

Beware the “sly whispers” of Pincus and Gross.


I thought I smelled burning rubber from the backpedaling…

Get Out

Let’s face reality, we’ve seen some scary stuff on live ranges when a newbie gun owner shows up. I’ve seen them look down the barrel, sweep others on the range and watched as they try to figure out how the ammo is loaded in the mags. The pushback appears to be the “Mandatory” portion of gun ownership. It has been mentioned that mandatory gun training is just a backdoor gun registration scheme to some of us. No personal data should be kept of any gun training session. New gun owners should be encouraged to get gun instruction, proper handling, fire… Read more »


Your post caused me to step back a little bit. Yes, there are people who, for a fee, will instruct “newbies” about the handling and use of firearms. And, there is likely someone the newbie knows who is capable and willing to give them the basics whether a relative, co-worker, friend, or other person that they can trust to give them the necessary information. How many times have you been approached on the range by another shooter who you don’t personally know and they ask you for some help because they see that you obviously know your way around firearms.… Read more »

Last edited 1 year ago by RoyD

Unfortunately I can only give you a single thumbs up. So far, probably because while I am a safe shooter – I am not particularly competent. I have however asked assistance, and have seen experienced shooters step in to assist someone clearly in need.


i have been at rages where the look at my new toy attitude persisted, guns are tools like saws and chippers , there should be a tool safty class in school (like shop) that teaches and promotes safety with all tools including bow and arrow and guns. have had someone ask how to load their new glock 45 gap they were trying to load 45 acp that is like trying to put 9mm luger in a 9mm kurtz the transfer agent should go over the gun with the buyer to be sure they understand the basics the number of newbees… Read more »


Wise advice.

Heed the Call-up

RoyD, I fully agree, and I have done the same as you. Sometimes I see they need help and a few times I have been asked to assist. I would much rather spend some time teaching them right, then them not learning at all. Only once did someone rebuff my request for assistance. That person stated they were a CC holder, as if that meant he knew what he was doing. I left immediately and told the employees to keep an eye on that lane, explaining what I saw.

Get Out

You’re correct on all you’ve written and it’s great advice to help them because my safety is at risk if I do nothing. These newbies have gotten my attention when I see them do something unsafe or they seem confused what to do next. I’ll strike up a conversation about their firearm to break the ice and go from there. Most newbies are appreciative of the help when offered and I always encourage them to attend a local class.

Ryben Flynn

The logical method would be to teach firearm safety in High School, just like Driver Training. Even way back in the late 60’s my HS offered a driver Training Course for a modest fee to cover fuel and other minor expenses. I don’t recall exactly, but I think the school contracted with an Instructor and his dual control car.
It’s been over 50 years so my memory of those days is a bit fuzzy.


Chances are they would not teach the truth about firearms, they’re already teaching the lies.


There’s a big difference between the two. However, I had to take my step daughter out years ago a retrain her after High School Drivers Ed! I can only imagine some teacher trying to instruct kids in firearms safety!


I agree. If there is a training mandate it should be passing some level of firearms training in order to graduate high school. There would of course be exceptions such as conscientious objectors or kids who are already prohibited persons. Those people would have option of receiving a “qualified” diploma. Anti’s focus is on safety, so most of the instruction would probably revolve around safety and could be done as paperwork and “blue gun” demonstrations. Shooting could be limited to passing police qualifying round – requiring only 50 rounds for majority of the students. As a mandatory class, school should… Read more »

Heed the Call-up

Anti’s focus is on safety

I beg to differ. They claim they are “gun safety” organizations, but that is just the term they apply to their citizen disarmament campaign. I have yet to read about any actual firearm safety training they offer.

John Dow

If training is to be mandated in order to exercise one’s Second Amendment rights, how about some more training before people go misusing their First Amendment rights.


Mandatory firearms training for a constitutional right!? That’s just as crazy as mandatory background screening for a constitutional right! Why, only a complete, stupid idiot would call for our constitutionally guaranteed rights – gifted to us by God – to be meted out by the government under the condition of prerequisite training and background checks, don’t you agree, Rob?


A good article by Rob Pincus. But, as opinions go they are like butts, everyone has one! Some good points and some bad points, so take it all in with a grain of salt as an info learning experience. I do see Rob’s points even though I may disagree with him on certain ones. “Mandatory Gun Training” I do agree with the “Gun Training”, it is the “Mandatory” part that I have problems with. When ever something is “Mandatory” then there is someone who is dictating how it is to be done, a Dictator! This does not conform to the… Read more »


I think we, the commenters, are starting at the wrong place. I agree that our right enumerated by the 2nd amendment should not depend on a bureaucrat’s permission slip. Additionally I believe it is useful for every responsible person who wants to own a weapon should seek out the proper use of it. The right place for training to start in my opinion is 2nd grade (7 years old) with pictures, non-firing examples and discussions. 3rd grade should include field trips, more examples and discussion about pistols vs revolvers vs rifles and some history of ammunition. 4th grade get’s rimfire… Read more »


True, strictly outside but only because no-one talks about it that I have heard. This idea would be useful in all constitutional carry states as they are already inclined to the concept if not the detail. Sometimes it just takes an apple falling on your head.


The trouble with your plan, [email protected], is that after that “training” many of those children will return to a dysfunctional living place (you will notice I did not use the word “home.”)


Lack of fathers or mothers is a real problem begun in my opinion back in the 60’s. Yes, I am that old. Again people, especially children are social, herd animals that will follow a leader. If not at home then school where people try hard to make it fun and rewarding. The difference between dysfunction at one place and order and predictability somewhere else can be observed even by children even if they cannot express it. They will gravitate to it. Some will be lost but all will be lost if nothing is done.


You are correct in your premise. My trouble with it is that I generally prefer to have better than fifty percent return on my time and effort. Of course that “one” you reach may, down the road, may make a great difference. Life is funny like that.


I am against mandated training and proficiency testing for Carry Permits. Why,,,because I don’t trust my government. When they make the laws they can make the process so onerous and/or so exacting that no one could pass.


I won’t address the issue of training reducing the possibility of lunatics going off and killing people. Nothing will stop these people except death. No guns available? They will simply use something else: car, bomb, knife, etc. But I am concerned about gun safety and I believe any level of training will incrementally increase gun safety. More is clearly better, but some is better than none. I am more likely to be shot by someone who does not know and follow safety rules on a range than a lunatic murderer. I am an instructor of 30+ years, who will instruct… Read more »


A range can require mandatory instruction as a private entity. You can require mandatory instruction as a condition of being your shooting buddy. The government has no right to require any conditional prerequisites to the exercise of my constitutionally guaranteed rights, which shall not be infringed.

Roland T. Gunner



How about the guy that has never owned a gun and just went and bought one and is carrying because there is constitutional carry and it is his right and something happens in public and he pulls his gun for the first time and you and your family are 15 yards away. How safe do you think you are? If he didn’t get any training do you think he took the time to practice drawing it, and in todays guns, you no longer need to turn off the safety. Do you think he is going to automatically place his trigger… Read more »

Heed the Call-up

If the person commits a crime, firearm or no, he/she will be prosecuted. I know no one that carries that has not had some type of training and that does not practice. You keep shooting down straw men (pun intended).

What surprises me the most is that you are usually very pro-rights, and on this topic you are seeking infringement on an inalienable right that is guaranteed by our 2A strongly stating “shall not be infringed.”



You must never travel on the roadways. If you did you must do it with great fear and trembling because of all the unlicensed drivers and people driving while distracted by their phones or whatever else and then there are those who, if disturbed by another driver, just “bust a cap in they ass.” Yes the roadway must be a fearsome place for you to find yourself.


I really don’t feel that requiring training is a knock against my freedom and in fact it is actually a good thing. Having a record kept in a government database that I have been trained is. I am on the side of training because it benefits all involved. Common sense says: You don’t jump on a motorcycle and have the person say, this is clutch, this the gear shifter, this is the break and this is the gas, it’s just like riding a bicycle, good luck. You don’t get in a car get the same instruction and are told good… Read more »

Heed the Call-up

MM44, I usually agree with your posts, but on this topic I strongly disagree. Interestingly you cite a need for mandatory training while citing your informal training received from your father as a child. I believe many of us on this site have had similar informal training and found the “formal” training only re-inforced what we were taught as children. That only proves that training is important, but does not conclude that mandatory training has any value. I would look at states that have mandatory training and how the various states have very different requirements for training. Then there is… Read more »


Times have changed and I want to point out something and I hope it makes sense. Today, not everyone’s dad was a shooter or a hunter. Remember they have been programming people to not like guns for years and it has taken it’s toll. Now we have people that are breaking the family mold against gun ownership and buying guns because they are afraid and want to be able to protect themselves. They don’t have a dad to teach them, they might not even have a friend to teach them. I don’t want someone beside me that doesn’t know shit… Read more »


Yes you are right I do enjoy watching too. The most impressive thing I have seen is where a rider will put his front tire on a rock and then pivot the back tire to another rock, stand the bike on the rear and then move the front to another rock as well as make little 5 foot jumps here and there and their feet never leave the pegs. Crazy. They don’t go far and they don’t really have a gas tank but what they do is awesome. The other things I enjoy with a motorcycle is Isle of man,… Read more »


My last bike was a Suzuki 650 enduro one lunger. It was a dirt bike and it wasn’t called an enduro but that is the old description of it. Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha all had a competition building a new dirt bike for the military and that’s what it was. My preference for dirt is a two stroke but the way things have changed since my 1993 Suzuki who knows what I would like now. Now I drive a 400 Polaris sportsman so I can haul more gear on it rather than on me. My favorite dirt bike was a… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner

Actually, thats exactly how you learn to ride a motorcycle. And when someone mandates training, weather its to your spec, or more than that amount, or less than that amount, its still infringing on a right, making it a privelege.


Ok, I think I get your point. Driving is a privilege not a right though many think it is a right. Owning a gun is a right and using that gun is a right. It should not be required that you be trained but you sensibly argue with me how not being trained is safer than being trained. You cant. I think it is only fair to everyone evolved that we all be as safe for each other as we can. When I was in the Marine Corps, they didn’t hand me my M16 and say here, go learn how… Read more »

Heed the Call-up

The issue is, like driving, training does not equate to proficiency, and like driving, people can be negligent. That does not mean they were not trained. Do you know anyone that carries that did not have any training (formal/informal)? Was it mandatory (other than for CC)?


I can’t say because I don’t know everyone that carries but I prefer that someone at least know what they are holding, how it works and how to be safe with it. Kind of like I wouldn’t lend my stick shift truck to a person that has only driven automatic. A perfect example of people not knowing what they are doing is gang bangers holding the gun sideways. If they knew it could easily jam doing that I think less of them would do it. When I take that into consideration I will say yes there are people that carry… Read more »

Heed the Call-up

Sadly, you revert to cliches on this topic “gang bangers holding the gun sideways”. I am losing my admiration of you the further you travel down this cliche ridden path.


Well this is not a popularity contest and what I have observed is what I have observed and it’s not a cliche when it’s a known fact.


I think it looks totally cool but studies have been done on it and it creates jamming problems because when the guns are designed, they are designed to operate in the normal hold position. My life is more important than looking cool and if I have to draw that is the last thing on my mind. Another thing that gets me is the cowboys in the old westerns. I guess they needed to add more velocity to the bullets back then because they always fling the gun forward when they shoot it. LOL


“Think about this. Cops get trained and have to be tested every year multiple times and they still accidentally shoot them selves, and usually when loading and unloading the gun.”

I don’t know how to break it to you, musicman44mag, but there are a lot of “Cops” that are not real bright. And there are a bunch of them that are lazy, and don’t pay attention to detail. Do I need to say, “Taser, Taser, Taser, KA-POW”?


Ya no kidding. I would hate to be her right now and I think about the cops leaving and I think the replacements are not going to equate to the ones that are retiring.


Do you remember this incident?

Shooting of Oscar Grant – Wikipedia


Yes I do remember this. I was supprised the officer didn’t get more time.


Man, this was all over the kommiefornia news. I don’t know if it made it nationally. Here in Oregone we no longer have peaceful protests because you never see them on the news locally at night so everything is just wonderful unless you watch FOX or Nesmax.

Maybe you don’t live in kommiefornia and that made the difference. God knows maybe some movie star decided to come out that day and that was more important.

Ansel Hazen

Pincus must have his friends here downvoting.

Xaun Loc

As a long-time shooter, a military veteran and professional military trainer, and a former state-certified CCW instructor, I am among those who believe the value of mandatory training could outweigh any infringement, but only if that training were provided free of cost and very readily available. Any such training program could not be very extensive, but even a few hours of classroom training covering the basics of state laws and firearms safety would go a long way towards reducing those instances we have all seen of simple gross stupidity. No training program, no matter how long, how detailed, or how… Read more »


And, just like that, you have precluded yourself from having anything worthy of note to read. Oh well.