FBI and ATF in a Lover’s Quarrel?

ATF Agents IMG ATFHQ-IG Public Domain
ATF Agents IMG ATFHQ-IG Public Domain

U.S.A.-(AmmoLand.com)- The subject of any of the three-letter agencies as of late has left a bit of a nasty taste in many freedom-loving peoples’ mouths. Whether there are rumors of not doing proper investigations or evidence of illegal actions, the alphabet soup of executive stormtroopers in the United States have not been making any friends. Yes, there are plenty of great rank and file agents, peace officers, etc. that work for this wonderful country (and the people). However, the leadership, lack of transparency, and overt favoritism to leftist ideals do not paint a pretty picture. What would the “big guy” have to say about favoritism?

What if we were to bring forward some interesting correspondence that popped up in a lawsuit? How about a bit of a lover’s quarrel between the FBI and ATF? That’d be juicy, wouldn’t it?

The lawsuit is still active, with injury claims being called moot, because the ATF just folded in the cited instances. The two agencies, FBI and ATF, failed to come to some sort of an “agreement” during their “who’s got a bigger” contest, leaving the ATF slightly cuckolded in the corner.

Umbert et. al. v. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA et.al. involves multiple applicants that sought NFA items. The applicants seeking relief were all caught up in the NICS system with the FBI recommending a denial concerning the issuance of any NFA tax stamps. Things got murky when they tried to appeal.

During the application process, the ATF relies on the recommendations that come from the FBI NICS check. The nuance here is that the FBI only makes recommendations in these cases to the ATF. They do not make a decision, as would be the case of regular firearm purchases. The FBI is only giving the ATF their results and has no skin in the game. But what happens when there is a denial by the ATF and an applicant wants to appeal that decision? There basically is no suitable appeal process for those seeking relief in these situations.

Looking at a Statement of Facts document that’s part of the suit, there’s some very interesting information included. There are two letters from the FBI to Mr. Curtis W. Gilbert, Deputy Assistant Director, Enforcement Programs and Services at the ATF. The two letters basically tell the ATF they need to tend to their own house and that the FBI is not responsible to do their dirty work.

Excerpts from the 2019 Letter:

This letter is in response to your June 19, 2018 Memorandum regarding the processing of National Firearms Act (NF A) appeals by the FBI Criminal Justice Information Services (CJIS) Division’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Section. The FBI previously stated that the NICS Section is not responsible for processing NF A appeals. In response, you stated that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) “has neither the legal or regulatory authority to process appeals for the correction of erroneous NICS system information as this authority is clearly and unambiguously provided to the FBI.”

Further, you stated that A TF processing of NI CS appeals would be violative of both the NICS Regulations and, likely, the Administrative Procedures Act (APA). On this point, the FBI does not disagree, as the FBI Director is the designated system manager of the NICS. See 28 C.F.R. § 25.3. However, it is the position of the FBI that ATF NFA transfers do not fall within the purview of the NICS provisions of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 (Brady Act); (now codified, in part, at Title 34, United States Code (U.S.C.), Section 40901) therefore, application and analysis of the NICS Regulations (Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations (C.F.R.), Section 25.1-25.11) seems unnecessary. In fact, it is the position of the FBI that the processing of any A TF work 1, to include NF A appeals by the NICS Section, pursued due to the denial of a transfer based upon the results of a NICS background check, runs afoul of Federal Appropriations laws and the Anti-Deficiency Acts.2.3

Appeals of NFA denials are not NICS appeals as set forth in the Brady Act.

While the Brady Act provides both administrative and judicial remedies for any person denied a firearm, this process is limited to those persons the NICS has denied a firearm under subsections (s) and (t) of Section 922 of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, (18 U.S.C. §§ 921-931). See 18 U.S.C. § 925A and 34 U. S.C. § 4090l(g). In addition, the remedies set forth in the Brady Act are limited to transfers where “licensees” have contacted the NICS prior to a GCA transfer of a firearm. As defined in 34 U.S.C. § 40901(j)(l), the tenn “licensee” does not include the ATF or ATF Director. It is the position of the FBI that A TF NF A transfers do not fall within the purview of the NICS provisions of the Brady Act.

Yes, they just go told they’re on their own. The letter(s) should be read in full, which is near poetry to the eyes of freedom-loving Americans. The FBI points out the failures in the law and further, the ATF.

From a 2020 letter on the same subject:

Notwithstanding the above, for the reasons detailed in the CJIS Division’s June 3 letter, the CJIS Division continues to belive that it is better for the ATF to process all ATF checks itself. The FBI continues to make the search of its systems and the results available to the ATF to perform this work. If, during the processing of a background check or an appeal, the ATF identifies a record in need of updating, the FBI will work with the ATF to ensure the appropriate processes are followed based on the respective FBI system and the owner of the record.

The defendants in the case have moved to moot it. From the attorney representing the plaintiffs, Stephen D. Stamboulieh’s, Memo in Support of Plaintiff’s Motion for a Summary Judgement, he notes that those seeking relief were “granted their certificates to purchase their firearms. This essentially mooted those cases, yet it is apparent that the issues underlying the present action are evading review and are repeating day in and day out.” He caps off what further relief is being sought in his conclusion of the same document.

For the foregoing reasons, Plaintiffs pray that their Motion for Summary Judgment is granted, and that the Court orders Defendants to stop shifting the burden to Plaintiffs to prove a negative, process their appeals, correct their records, and transfer the firearms to the respective Plaintiffs.

The burden should always fall squarely on the shoulders of the government to prove someone’s “guilt” or in this case, ineligibility to purchase or possess a firearm, and or NFA item. Regardless of a quarrel between agencies, the US Government, as a whole, needs to get its house in order on this subject, and not give waste to further delays. In delaying the issuances of any certificate that states the eligibility to purchase a firearm and or NFA item, a person’s rights are being infringed upon. It’s going to only be a matter of time before the subject of suppressors being protected under the Second Amendment becomes more mainstream and guarded as such judicially.

As for now, let’s sit back and revel in knowing that the ATF and FBI might be having a seven-year itch, with one getting the cold shoulder from the other. Couldn’t happen to a nicer agency.


About John Petrolino

John Petrolino is a US Merchant Marine Officer, writer, author of Decoding Firearms: An Easy to Read Guide on General Gun Safety & Use and NRA certified pistol, rifle, and shotgun instructor living under and working to change New Jersey’s draconian and unconstitutional gun laws. You can find him on the web at www.johnpetrolino.com on twitter at @johnpetrolino, facebook at @thepenpatriot and on instagram @jpetrolinoiii .

John Petrolino

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musicman44mag

Wow, just got the email for todays ammoland at 4:02 am. It’s 4:24 and the newest response it 4 hours old. What up whit dat.

Wild Bill

There is one article here that has comments from a year ago.

gregs

right, i sometimes see up to 20 hours ago. i must have a slow browser.

Tackleberry

While the website’s software is a bit dated and wonky, it does make you wonder about not only the authenticity but the physical location of many of these commentators. There is an awful lot of activity during the daylight hours of the eastern hemisphere.

Last edited 9 months ago by Tackleberry
swmft

I think the server is not distinguishing between west coast and east coast time , and time stamping where you are , not gmt

Country Boy

Ask nancy pelosi. She is now the “Time Czar” and in charge of how to set and read clocks. (God Help Us All)

Green Mtn. Boy

Both agencies are not Constitutionally authorized,who would have thought it.

nrringlee

Our Rogue Federal Government is sounding more and more like the Soviet Union of old each passing day. They will eventually drown in the bureaucratic muck they have created.

CourageousLion

Maybe this is why it is sounding more like the Soviet Union of old…https://www.educate-yourself.org/cn/communistmanifestortenplanks12sep06.shtml9

Country Boy

and We The people with them I fear………

Henry Bowman

The schadenfreude of a pi$$ing match between the Federal Baby Immolators and Burn All Toddlers First is too good not to savor. Let’s hope we can soon chop away every unconstitutional appendage of the government until only the .1% that’s legit is left!

swmft

you mean government is not supposed to be the largest employer?

Henry Bowman

Yeah, whodathunk it? I guess people don’t read the writings of the founding generation anymore… or even Ronald Reagan.

CourageousLion

Every “law” passed that has no victim involved is a freedom lost. EVERY ONE OF THEM. This may be the answer:

CourageousLion

We sure don’t want CONSTITUTIONAL sheriffs do we Mr. Detractor?

swmft

they dont like oath keepers,

Henry Bowman

I’m pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

swmft

sad part with reagan is he did not do as he said 1986 gun control act,the attack on him was not a machine gun

Henry Bowman

I believe he was hoodwinked. NRA told him “this is a good thing”, and he just signed it. I know for a fact that NRA was OK with the new-machine-gun-ban; the top sellouts already had their machine gun collection including a bunch of registered drop-in auto sears.

CourageousLion

I can carry the contract in my pocket and read and understand the contract in an hour. And yet the feds and state governments have over TWENTY THOUSAND INFRINGEMENT ON THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS “LAWS” on the books. WE need to get back to the common law where a victim is involved and that will end all this horseshit that just enriches the coffers of the Feds, states and localities. That is why the late George Gordon called it the “Law Enforcement Growth Industry”. Read this and save it and pass it around…https://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/legi.html

Last edited 9 months ago by CourageousLion
swmft

you can read and reason, intelligence is not as wide spread as you think. There are lots of smart people but smart is the ability to repeat what you are taught, not to expand that knowledge through thought and experimentation Even reason is not as common as you would think ever notice some people resort to name calling and other antics rather than back and forth banter with ideas that is also a sign of low iq .Stephen Hawking showed what it is to reason when shown the error in his math , he checked and found the other to… Read more »

swmft

and those that resort to anger may have mental illness, or in extreme cases of low iq the anger is from frustration ,ether at not understanding an idea or not being able to get one they have across

Tank

When the people fear the GubMINT there is tyranny.

When the people depend on the GubMINT there is an addiction.

No communist/socialist/fascist form of any GubMINT ever created a free & thriving society in planetary twistory.
Additionally they NEVER succeeded in championing Human Rights, innovation, technological achievements using private enterprise as a prime source.

“The State is the Coldest of all the Cold Monsters.”

Nietzsche

Last edited 9 months ago by Tank
Montana454Casull

This appears to be obstruction of peoples constitutional rights by both alphabet soup agencies and should make both agencies disappear for violating of our constitutional right to bare arms . FJB and the FBI and BATF as they are all criminals that need hung for treason.

CourageousLion

No one has “constitutional rights”. We have UNALIENABLE RIGHTS given by our creator. It is self evident with the reading of our countries founding document. The Declaration of Independence. Be it UNDERSTOOD! NO ONE has CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS or 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! PERIOD! OUR rights are based on natural law. They are the rights to life, liberty and property. The rules on the paper (Constitution) explain to those who we are allowing to be agents for us WHAT THEY CANNOT DO. These prohibitions are AGAINST those agents. They are NOT TO infringe on our right to defend ourselves. (Right to bear arms)… Read more »

gregs

the first attached document is just an effort in typical government laziness and ineptitude and a failed vain attempt to cover it’s worthless ass. in the well written memorandum of support for summary judgement (second attached document), on page 28 counsel writes, “Therefore, Defendents have a legal duty to preform these acts.” delays should be extremely rare and/or used, either deny or approve. not only duty, but obligation or responsibility to do so. let’s see if they actually do fulfill any of those. any takers? if these people were in the private sector they would be out of a job… Read more »

swmft

if there were no government jobs these would be the homeless

Tank

Two wings of the same Bird. Figure it out. Roman Fasces hangs in Congress since 1953 for a reason. “The individual comes face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind has not come to a realisation of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent. When morals decline and good men do nothing, evil flourishes. A society unwilling to learn from past is doomed. We must never forget our history.” J… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Tank
swmft

hoover the tyrant love it and it is so true

Ram

I have long thought that J. Edgar Hoover simultaneously created and corrupted the FBI. He was the bureaucrat that communism was fabricated
to exalt.

Wild Bill

Yes, and cross dressing, homosexual, blackmailer, too!

Ram

The gathering of intelligence for possible extortion,
is the power of the deepstate and their elected lackeys.

Wild Bill

I agree, and I think that J. Edgar Hoover taught them all how!

Henry Bowman

Oddly there is NO evidence of J.E.H. being a fruitcake outside of the fevered imaginations of leftist scum. Was he a statist? Hell yeah! Was he a queer? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT!!

Tackleberry

I’m not fan of Hoover, but I m at odds as to his legacy on this topic. He spent his early career hunting down Communists/Socialists and their organizations. He loathed the Communists and he’s the reason so many of them were “de-immigrated” back to their country of origin in the 1920s. Records showed just how far he went to keep the FBI active against such targets through his tenure as head of the FBI. He and a few of his closest agents were responsible for the lists and names to both McCarthy and the Hollywood Communist trials. It wasn’t until… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Tackleberry
Wild Bill

That is a good synopsis and observations. I did not know about the Subversive Activities Control Board!

Tackleberry

Alexander Palmer Mitchell former Congressman and then appointed to Attorney General was attacked by the Communists by a mail bomb twice (he was just one of many). Mitchell went after them with a passion and reached into the DoJ ranks to find a young LEO that was as anti-communist as he was. Enter a young J Edgar Hoover who had been working on anti-communist surveillance and takedowns in his first few years. Mitchell was eventually instrumental in getting Congress to create the FBI (can guess one of its primary focus areas?) and appointed an incredibly young agent to head an… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Tackleberry
Henry Bowman

Hoover’s ONLY shortcoming was his blind spot for organized crime (aka THE MOB). Otherwise, Sen. McCarthy and Hoover were what saved us from communism 1920-1990!!

Wild Bill

Clyde Tolson and  J. Edgar Hoover, c. 1939 It has been stated that J. Edgar Hoover described: “They rode to and from work together, ate lunch together, and often traveled together on official or unofficial business.” Their relationship has been described as “what many considered a ‘spousal’ relationship between the two men”. There are reports about Hoover’s sexual orientation and possible intimate relationship with Clyde Tolson.  Some authors have described them as probable or even confirmed,and still others reported the rumors without stating an opinion.The two men often spent weekends together in New York, Christmas season together in Florida, and the start… Read more »

Tackleberry

I never said I’d take a back rub from the guy…

billybob

Would be nice, also to see a judgement forcing the keepers of the records used in NICS to update and clean out their records . Many old and overturned judgements still negatively affect applicants!

swmft

they dont listen to judges fbi robbed peoples stuff against judges orders in San Francisco no one to jail them they need to be disbanded and many jailed start over

Wild Bill

Yes, and there is precedent for disbanding the FBI or any agency. Remember the Federal Bureau of Narcotics? They went too far so Congress decommissioned them.

GomeznSA

WB – IIRC that was the BNDD – bureau of narcotics and dangerous drugs which became what is now the DEA. You are correct bout over reach – look at how the infernal revenue service has ‘acquired’ more and more unconstitutional power.

Wild Bill

In Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics was sued for violating the 4th Amendment rights of Bivens, through the illegal search and seizure of drugs without a warrant.
The Congress was so shocked by the FBN agents’ egregious conduct that Congress repealed the FBN’s enabling act and started over. That is all I know or think that I know. Are we talking about the same thing?

GomeznSA

WB – based on the timing I suspect we are on the same issue. Seems to me that by the precedents set in that case and the egregious actions of thos ‘unnamed agents’ – just about ALL federal “LE” outfits should be disbanded except ‘maybe’ the marshall’s service

Tackleberry

He’s argument isn’t that it wasn’t disbanded in 1971-1972 so much as it was rerolled into what became the DEA in 1973. I’m sure if you look closely at it, you’ll see most of the agents of the FBN we’re just chopped over to the DEA.

It’s just like the ATF/DEA/Marshals and a few others can trace their cadre of officers and bureaucrats back to the old Revenues of the Prohibition Era

Wild Bill

OK.

Ram

Can the idea that information gathered by the ATF, has flowed to entities outside of government, be refuted?

Last edited 9 months ago by Ram
Wild Bill

I do not know. I guess that they could always refute that proposition by lying. That is a technique that is well known to governmental agencies.

Last edited 9 months ago by Wild Bill
Rodoeo

That would be nice. I have a black mark on my record from when I was 17 years old. It was thrown out due to lack of probable cause and no conviction yet the NICS system delays me and periodically denies me because of it. I’ve appealed and go the same BS response noted in this article from the GOV.

Tackleberry

I made a calculation mistake when mixing up ANFO to help a farmer clear out some stumps. A large piece of one of the stumps went through the roof of a neighbor’s garage almost 1/4 mile away. Even though the charges were eventually dropped, the local police had called the ATF & FBI and handed the case and me over (this was right after the first World Trade Center Bombing in 1993) and the “Federal Arrest” has always haunted my background. This posed issues with my Security Clearance checks for the rest of my career. Almost like clockwork, the renewal… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Tackleberry
Wild Bill

That is funny. Glad that you got it straightened out. When I first enlisted, some clerk typist mis-typed my B-day, and it only took me thirty out of thirty-two years to get that corrected. Even my beloved Army is part of government.

Finnky

I thought FFL ran a NICS check at time of purchase, then sent paperwork to AFT for tax stamp, and finally ran another NICS check before actually releasing the NFA item. Thus if someone is failing the NICS check they would be denied by FBI regardless of ATF ruling. Would certainly suck for AFT to take the money, make you wait most of a year – and then still be denied one’s legal possession. Adding insult to injury, most likely being out the tax stamp ($200) plus restocking fees on the item. While I appreciate FBI bitch-slapping AFT, suppressors should… Read more »

Stag

There is no NICS check required when transferring NFA items due to the transferee having to submit their fingerprints, photo, etc when paying their unconstitutional tax on said item. In fact, there is a box on the 4473 that we have to check that says no nics check required since all items transferred are NFA items.

Will

No more NFA items for me. I’ve bought 2 SBR’s and three cans and the wait time for stamps is just getting worse. They already collect an illegal 200$ tax so you would think they could at least get the stamp to you in a timely manner.Forget that.I will keep my TX LTC current just to have all call-in NICS background checks waived for firearms/serialized item related purchases.

Pgtips

The FBI is the bigger dog, it will always win against the ATF regardless of substance of the conflict. While the NICS transfer system is a search run through CJIS, CJIS isn’t the only LEO database when it comes to investigating a person’s criminal history. The ATF has 1811 agents, those agents have access to all the avenues to look up such data and interact with all levels of federal/state/local government to rule in/out derogatory information. If the ATF has adjudicatory authority to make a decision on NFA items, as such, they are the route of appeal. If a person… Read more »

gregs

you forgot the social media sites which i’m sure the government agents look to for derogatory info. if not now, very soon. kind of like the social credit score in ccp. this is one of the main problems with big government, “not my job”, yet collecting a salary, benefits and pension on taxpayer dollars. for every denial, the applicant should be sent info on their right to appeal, how to appeal, contact information of the denier, FOIA info to obtain denial information and much more. not just NO! this is what happens when congress abdicates its authority to an unelected… Read more »

Bill

Once something is posted on the internet it will NEVER go away. Conduct yourself accordingly!

Country Boy

OK………… Fuck the ATF, and Joe Biden too.

Wild Bill

Thank you for providing an interesting read, and welcome to the site.

PistolGrip44

Problem with this country is there are way too many bootlickers.

Tank

We don’t drink from the Skulls of our true real enemies either.

Stag

Absolutely!

WhiGSplittAh

Can anybody recommend an attorney. I am going through the same issue right now. Was denied my Form 4 tax stamp. They don’t give a reason. And I don’t know what to do or who to contact to fix this. As this is the current problem. There is no one to call or contact regarding your denial. Please help!! Just respond to this post and I will contact your referred attorney. I live in Oklahoma. Thank you fellow patriots!

Roland T. Gunner

I recomend Sean Cody, an attormey specializing in NFA issues here in Texas. Not too far from you; easy to find on the ‘net.

WhiGSplittAh

He died in November 2019…. Anybody else have an NFA attorney to recommend in Oklahoma?? Really could use the help with a great attorney. I am NOT a felon. I already have 1 suppressor and they just DENIED me my 2nd suppressor, FOR NO REASON!!! If the author of this article reads this, do you know of any NFA attorney’s? Thank you guys/gals on here!! Much appreciated.

swmft

what were you smoking when you wrote this? great rank and file agents ,people that willfully violate their oath are not even ok

45crittergitter

John, you should proofread before you post.

john

Unelected government bureaucrats should not be allowed to continue increasing the size of the regulatory state and infringing on the people’s Second Amendment rights. This must stop our freedom is at stake.    No one makes a better case for abolishing the ATF than the ATF. There has never been a federal agency with so little regard for the sanctity of human life, with such a history of failure, with such antiquated duties and responsibilities, with such a propensity to overreact, with such an addiction to good press, with such a willingness to bend over for any politician in charge, and… Read more »

swmft

you mean with the repeal of prohibition dec 5 1933?

CourageousLion

As I stated above…NO ONE has CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS or 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! PERIOD! OUR rights are based on natural law. They are the rights to life, liberty and property. The rules on the paper (Constitution) explain to those who we are allowing to be agents for us WHAT THEY CANNOT DO. These prohibitions are AGAINST those agents. They are NOT TO infringe on our right to defend ourselves. (Right to bear arms) They are NOT to search us without a proper warrant, they are TO ALLOW us to assemble and petition for grievance. THEY ARE NOT to infringe on our right… Read more »

swmft

on a site that is supposed to be about rights we get down votes when we talk about criminal acts by agents of government that would be trolls

Jonesy

Correct, with no debate or recourse.

swmft

It could be they dont have the ability to,through reason ,give their point of view. we take for granted the abilities we have ,and project them on others. So when someone incapable of reason slaps at what we have said we expect their point of view , they may not be able to express a point of view

Wild Bill

Yes, the absolute best tactician that I ever knew was not very expressive. I had to learn to shut up, and carefully ask questions until I understood. The enlisted guy was the best and worst teacher that I ever had, anywhere in the world.

Wild Bill

Recourse? Perhaps you mean discourse. Respectfully.

Last edited 9 months ago by Wild Bill
swmft

he could mean either, as in no way to have the mark removed, or no discussion

Wild Bill

Recourse is aid in a difficult situation, like a judicial appeals. Quite unclear.

Sooo … remove what mark?

swmft

the down vote is like a mark against what they have said

Last edited 9 months ago by swmft
Wild Bill

Oh, the check mark. I see. An up vote can be a short hand about the remark, the author, the punctuation, or how the author parts his hair. IMHO.

swmft

no the up or down should be based on the remark ,regardless or who wrote it; but that takes a big person

gregs

just for the sake of argument, if you believe our laws are based on natural law, that would be who is strongest rules, until they are overthrown, a.k.a. anarchy. our laws here in America are based very loosely on judeo-christian values, codified into law in the 18th century and then morphed into what we have now, which is a botched abortion. paraphrasing Paul of bible fame in Romans 12, “as much as possible on your part, live peacefully with everyone.” that being said there will come at a time that peace is not beneficial to the people and other actions… Read more »

CourageousLion

Natural law isn’t based on who is strongest rules. It’s based on the understanding that rights are those which do not infringe on others. To say that our system is based on “judeo-christian” values is to state an oxymoron as Judeo and Christian have diametrically opposed beliefs in many ways. Our system was based on the understanding of DEISTS. As well as the Magna Carta. Though most would wine about it being based on “christian values” I find that the majority of the Founding Fathers were Deists including the one most influential in getting the colonies to throw off the… Read more »

swmft

our system has a complicated base, and history viking(pagan) judeo-christian,greek and roman, our system of courts is french , the founding fathers were well read and had a lot of back and forth about what could or would work,remember articles of confederation were more like nato treaty than a unified country . the term natural law has been used in several was ,and one is law of the jungle. the way you are using it as the founding fathers would have but the theory is broad and old and seams to be ever changing with new ideas of human nature

Wild Bill

If you want to know the complete story of why, who, the politics, and concepts(to include natural law) that changed our system from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution of the U.S., then I would like to suggest “The Quartet” by Joseph J. Ellis.

swmft

that is a good one , and we should differentiate natural law theory which is what we are talking and the natural law that anthropologists talk about (law of jungle) there is a lot of nuance to the words used and the discord it now creates

swmft

you want every one to be well read, I would like that too I posted the full explanation of natural rights, of course on hold but it should give more people an idea of what constitution means , it is where the base ideas are
I did not go into magna carta as then the laws of the time need to be brought up and the history that goes back to 1066 and all the charters that led up to it complicated would be fun to talk about but not here

Last edited 9 months ago by swmft
swmft

you are correct based on biblical law, natural law would be more craziest, that can keep from getting killed gets what they want . Violence for sake of control, basically like Stalin

CourageousLion

“In delaying the issuances of any certificate that states the eligibility to purchase a firearm and or NFA item, a person’s rights are being infringed upon.” Excuse me? First off the fact that ANYONE has to deal with these clowns in the first place is a INFRINGEMENT on their rights. Why should sound suppressors or the length of a barrel or how many rounds a weapon fires with the pull of the trigger be an issue at all considering those ignored last four words of the pretty much ignored 2nd amendment? I can’t find the word EXCEPT anywhere in that… Read more »

Tank

It’s all about control on the Animal Farm.

Tionico

and/or some being more equal than others…….

Roland T. Gunner

And remember, no right is absolute.

Last edited 9 months ago by Roland T. Gunner
Wild Bill

That is pretty funny!

CourageousLion

You must be a gooberment skewl gradjit with a remark like that OR you’re being satirical. Since I can’t tell which, I go with the later for your benefit because if is the former, go learn what the word RIGHT means. If it isn’t “absolute” it isn’t a RIGHT. Especially an UNALIENABLE RIGHT which is the kind of RIGHT the Declaration speaks of. Not INalienable. There is a difference.

Wild Bill

Yep, he is just being facetious. He must be.

Tank

He is & your 100%. Declaration of Independence clearly stated the only legitimate governments are those with the consent of the governed. I do not consent to any of non-sense Clown Show Circus since Bush Sr. said in his speech about NWO & his cryptic Masonic “Thousand Points of Light” speech. For those here who actually are critical thinkers & gnosis how it really works Bush’s coined terms & programs such as Full Spectrum of Dominance & TIA (Total Information Awareness) which is the Panopticon of Tyranny & human Animal Farm of control Orwell wrote about. It’s much more about… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Tank
Ram

An excellent summation.

Ram

I believe Gunner was sarcastically referencing a Biden statement.