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Hey Uncle Joe? Can you hurry up with that $1400? I want to buy some ammo!
I have seen this before just not this bad ! The way to stop this is to buy when prices are low and then you don’t have to partake in encouraging these price gouging clowns . The price will come down if people quit buying at these current ridiculous prices. All the people buying at these prices should have taken up reloading like I did 12 years ago . I refuse to contribute to this unethical price gouging practice !
They sure are trying hard to lose me as a customer.
Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.
@Cruiser
Who is “they?” The manufacturer? The wholesaler/distributor? The retailer?
What would you have them do differently?
Take your pick, greed is a powerful motivator.
So is entitlement – when combined with ignorance, it results in totalitarianism.
Have you analyzed the financial statements of Vista Outdoor?
Cruiser,
Seriously, why don’t you and the others who complain ammo prices (especially the ones who come right out and say something should be done), provide a recommendation?
It’s more difficult for me to analyze the financials of the Poongsan Corporation (who own PMC), but I have taken a look at Vista Outdoor.
What is it that you want done?
With all the hoarding of ammo and guns I’ll be glad when everyone runs out of money so the normal person can buy a couple of boxes of stuff they really want or need.
It’s put our little mom and pop gun store out of business, they could no longer get any inventory and closed the doors. Gun people are worse than TP hoarders.
“No purchase limits”
My limit at that price is ZERO.
And so I will be waiting to purchase any more ammo, as well as the uppers for my 2 incomplete lowers. I’m glad I bought copious amounts when prices were reasonable.
Here you BadDad. Had a couple of projects going myself and waited 5 weeks for MidWayUSA to get parts in; they raised the prices 25% of items sitting in my cart then told me “that is our policy”. At Lonewolfdist.com those new guys that took over did the same thing by raising items in my cart by 25% when they came in, except their response was “production costs increased”; another more reputable supplier in business generations told me production costs have not increased in 5 years and said when the items come in they will be the same price and… Read more »
Test
Sorry BadDad, they blocked my response or are not doing their jobs as yesterday they said “waiting approval”.
A $1 a rd….Yeah GFY!
For those complaining of the high prices these days, the obvious solution is clear: start a consumer moratorium on purchasing. In other words, stop buying ammunition for the next six to eight months. This will certainly give you a capitalist result (so many commenters appear to be experts in.) The demand will drop therefore the price will drop, creating a surplus of ammo at cheaper prices that we’ll be able to benefit from next summer.
That is a logical scenario. There is at least one expert on capitalism in this thread and I suspect more than one. I am not embarrassed about my expertise in economics, business, and the beauty of a free market system. Capitalism, with all its imperfections, is the best system ever devised. There are some people in this thread who may want to read up on Hugo Chavez and how he interfered with the free market – people went hungry, people lost all the wealth they had worked for, and people were subjected to the brutal authoritarianism of government employees. Chavez… Read more »
@JSNMGC – Another example would be Nixon’s wage caps , to keep unions and employees from price gouging. Not as obvious as Chavez, but major contributor to the massively disruptive inflation during Carter’s term – also resulted in explosion of employee benefit programs such as employer provided health insurance in lieu of simply raising pay. In many ways this was the first version of Obama care – semi-requiring employers to pay for health insurance.
Yes – it always ends badly.
Price control and government rationing of ammo would result in:
I was a recent MBA graduate working for a aerospace defense contractor in Silicon Valley when Nixon slapped on wage & price controls. So, I have 1st hand knowledge of the economic distortions they cause. It caused huge differences in the compensation for the same job between long term employee & new hires. The only way you could keep up with inflation was to frequently change employers. Also, for commodities low profit margin commodities disappeared as the raw materials used went to produce higher margin products. For example newsprint & paper bags became scarce. That is why plastic bags were… Read more »
Is there no shame in the industry? Three times the price of a few months back. Sure, the supply and demand factors into the story, but this is ridiculous.
Have you thought about investing in a business to manufacture primers, powder, casings, or bullets? All you need is tens of millions of dollars, wrestle with government employees about regulations, find good people to work in engineering, manufacturing, IT, finance, sales, etc., pay for insurance, property taxes, utilities, etc. If you are successful, you give a big chunk of the profits to government and hope to hell you don’t get sued.
Jump in.
The only fair way to allocate scarce resources is price. If the government controls the price mfg’s will allocate their production to big box stores & large distributors that they have long term relationships and/or customers who pay invoices quickly.
Yes, price is the most efficient means of not only allocating a scarce resource, but also the best mechanism for ensuring scarcity does not continue for a product for which supply is only constrained due to the unwillingness to expand production.
What was approx $350 (5) months ago is now $700. What a bargain!
Terry, I think that you’re missing the point. What gets found as a daily deal is what gets found NOW. Are they historically great prices? Of course not. Prices and availability are horrible right now. If people had shown some foresight they could have stocked up and then not been affected by the fluctuations in the market. Many of us did just that, and do that as a matter of course. Panic buying is ALWAYS expensive. People should have learned that the last time we had a panic, or the time before that, or that. Now that you see how… Read more »
It is crooked to triple the price.
No, it’s capitalism.
Reply to Dave in Fairfax
No I am not missing anything, it is price gouging. Just like it would be if a lumber yards that doubles the price on plywood just in front of a hurricane.
I did stock up prior but that does not make it right to double and triple the price. It is price gouging!
What do you want done about it?
Government price controls?
Nationalize the industry?
Or, maybe, just let the free market work. Either demand and price will both go down or people will invest in more capacity, supply will go up to meet demand and price will go down.
@JSNMGC – Fear of governmental interference is contributing to prices remaining high. There are two big reasons to not invest heavily into expanding capacity. Most investments take a long time to pay off, for reasons you’ve previously described. IF investors expected demand to stay high, they would be adding production lines to existing facilities or even looking for spaces for new facilities. Both approaches have high upfront costs and considerable delay before additional production comes on line. Manufacturers are aware that current high demand is likely to drop before new capacity comes on line, leaving them making payments for idle… Read more »
I agree with all of that.
It also applies to new entrants. Why would someone start a new business when 1) demand may fall off (and prices go down) and 2) the government may impose new regulations to penalize businesses involved in firearms and ammunition?
Many have concluded the returns are not worth the risk. Yet people criticize those currently in the business (or people in the distribution channels) of being criminals or evil, greedy, “multinational” corporations who don’t understand long term brand management.
Don, You may not like the rise in prices, I don’t. That doesn’t make it crooked or make my earlier point about keeping a supply of all consumables, food or otherwise, incorrect. What you are complaining about is called the Law of Supply and Demand. It’s the basis of a Free Market. Under Capitalism, people have the choice of starting a business which they run and from which they get the profits, if any. Under Socialist governments the government owns the means of production and sets the prices for goods as well as controlling their availability. This is your HS… Read more »
Because a truly free market is automatically self-regulating. When a shortage of some good or service happens, it causes high prices, but it doesn’t necessarily increase the cost of production. Instead, it usually just means higher profits for whoever still has that good or service. This means the shortage will not last for long, as the high profit will draw many people to begin offering that good (or service). But that same increase in supply will then tend to drive prices back down to normal levels of profit, thus seeking its own balance, just as water does in two connected… Read more »
You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT however that does not excuse price gouging! But that is an ETHICAL/MORAL QUESTION. Not a legal one. It will take a better mind than mine to come up with a better way.
Businesses handle the increased demand in different ways. Some increase the price, some ration the sales, some just sell to people buying guns, some keep the price the same as it was and sell out immediately. It’s their decision. There is nothing unethical or immoral about it.
Is Apple price gouging for their phones?
Are companies associated with the NFL price gouging for ticket sales or for selling shirts with the name of a corporate employee on the back?
Who are you to determine the fair price for anything?
The gouging of unprepared and desperate people, while despicable, has been happening for as long as the human race has existed. My point was only that a truly free market solves that problem. And on a deeper level, that we have a bad price gouging problem today, because the US has not had a free market for a long time. What we have is micromanagement to the Nth degree, while falsely claiming that this absolute control is somehow “free”. “Freedom is Slavery”, is how Orwell phrased it. But the market just ignores that lie, and thus we now have a… Read more »
The free market works because of the “greedy.”
As of 11/20/20, what would a 20 round box of PMC Bronze .223 Remington 55GR FMJ be priced at that would not be price gouging?
At that price what do you think would happen? Some “greedy” person would buy it all. They might resell it at a higher price or keep it to themselves.
If you believe the multinational companies are the problem, why don’t you open a small company to produce primers, cases, powder, bullets and the equipment to assemble it?
Knute, Emotionally I feel that people should act in a way to help everyone as long as they are not hurting anyone doing it. Rationally I understand that people work by self-interest, usually. If you are a privately owned firm or a family business, you can decide to act in ways that may not give you as large a return on investment as you might otherwise get. If you are publicly traded or have employees who are not family, you have a fiduciary requirement to do the best for them that you can. Families are benign dictatorships, corporations have to… Read more »
I don’t see human nature changing readily either. A truly free market is based, not upon greed, but enlightened self-interest. It would appear that that particular bourbon is in heavy demand, and likely could make higher profit if they raised the price, but they choose NOT to do so. Probably because they’re satisfied with a reasonable profit, and enlightened enough to know that they will prosper more in the long run by doing so, building a reputation as a good product at a good price, by always being sought after. As opposed to the current corporate philosophy of ignoring long… Read more »
Have you ever sold your house for less than market value? Are professional athletes “price gouging” when they negotiate contracts? There are a lot of different business models regarding pricing for a product that is in high demand when supply is limited in the short term. Many Bourbon producers do not price their product at the maximum the market will bear for the quantity they have available to sell. Some of that product is priced to market further down the distribution chain. Some is sold by retailers on some sort of allotment scheme at below market price. Some that is… Read more »
Actually I think that we are in agreement on this. WE weren’t the ones accusing the businesses of price gouging. That view was held held by two other commenters. The choice to buy or not is exactly what Knute and I were proposing as the proper way of doing business. We certainly weren’t asking for the government to come riding in and “fix” any problem for us. That happens to be the problem. After buying the bourbon, I should be able to send it to him. The Law/Government says that I can’t, and can’t explain why that is other than… Read more »
Lots of “emotions and feelings,” corporations are bad, etc.
I realize you were not asking for intervention.
You sold the house for market value.
The athletes get paid market value.
Free the Bourbon.
“Lots of “emotions and feelings,” corporations are bad, etc.” It is not that emotions and feeling are BAD, it is that they are now run amok. Emotions are like fire; a great servant, but a terrible master. Out of control they destroy everything in their path, like forest fires in California. But kept under control, they heat our water and our homes, provide us with instant cooking surfaces, etc. Like fire, emotions are raw power, but without direction. Not a good thing. IMO, it is the actual basic structure of corporations that is to blame for their ongoing downfall. Once… Read more »
The market, absent government intervention, is very efficient.
You should start an ammo company since you believe you have a much better strategy. You will become extraordinarily wealthy because of these simple truths you believe others have overlooked. You will take their market share in no time – and shooters will love you and discuss how enlightened you are on the internet.
Exactly my point.
I would argue that in the world of internet shopping, large scale price gouging is impossible. Sure a corner store may have a local monopoly on retail sales – and be screwing new gun owners buying their first gun. People who won’t go online to check current prices are few and far between. Check and compare prices between internet sellers and you willing see exactly what @Knute Knute described. Some list lower prices and have little to no inventory. Some have volume limits, which makes no sense to me given shipping costs and multiple order workaround. Others list high prices… Read more »
Last spring, just when this all started, I ordered a thousand 9mms from Sportsman Guide from the ammoland links page that was a smoking buy. Brass cased 115 gr FMJ for 189 USD if memory serves. Member price only, non member was 10% higher. They emailed back that it was on backorder, and that I could click to keep the order active. I did so, but a month later got the same email again. Again I responded to keep the order active. I did this 4 more times until they finally just sent me an “order canceled” with no options… Read more »
Yep, the same exact thing happened to me, but it started in late January. Previous to the scare on Covid I had some very good experiences with Sportmans….Like 15 cents a rounds for 9.. and 23 cents for AR.
I concur. I have been buying ammo online for 20 years. I also reload. Until after Sandy Hook I never bought more than I could shoot up in a year or two. After Sandy Hook I severely limited my 22LR shooting to preserve my 22LR inventory, <1K. I stared buying 22LR when the self price was 9 cents or less each. The 1st bulk purchase was online for 5000 rounds at $350 including freight. This didn’t include sales tax because, at the time sellers didn’t have to collect sales tax if they didn’t have operations in the purchasers state. The… Read more »
One of the many beauties of a still, largely, free market. One of the many proposed gun laws is to stop internet sales of ammo. It has nothing to do with “saving the children.” It has everything to do with causing more problems for an industry Totalitarians want to see crushed.
You may think it is crooked but it is not. The market determines the price. The market is an informal auction. The advertised price is no different than a “reserve” or “buy it now” price on Gunbroker. If the seller doesn’t get a bid or buy it now they will relist it at a lower reserve price unless they want to keep it in inventory hoping for for the market price to increase. I am sure many of those people who bough up AR-15’s & ammo in 2013 after Sandy Hook lost money when a year later they were lucky… Read more »
No I am not missing anything, it is price gouging. Just like it would be if a lumber yards that doubles the price on plywood just in front of a hurricane.
I did stock up prior but that does not make it right to double and triple the price. It is price gouging!
Terry,
What this boils down to is a question of definitions. Do you think that “price gouging” is a thing. It’s much like do you think that “Assault Rifle” is a thing. If you see prices rising as part of supply and demand it isn’t. If you see the government’s role as the arbiter of supply and demand, it is. That goes back to what kind of economic system do you want to live under.
One month later it is now $1000.00.
Do you want government to control the prices?
Or do you think government should “nationalize” the industry?
The governments responsibility is to protect from gouging just as mentioned about tripling the cost of every commodity in front of a hurricane. Same exact deal, except this is nation wide. They could limit sales, to spread the wealth, but doubling and tripling the cost is criminal.
Yikes.
The cure is worse than the disease.
That is most definitely not the government’s responsibility.
@TLS – Government is a big part of the problem. Manufacturers are in position of needing to make money now in fear of losing their investments within the next two years. For example – if Biden has his way, 223 production will stop completely outside military contracts — while all other calibers will be curtailed sharply. What would you do as a manufacturer? Expensive equipment will be sold as scrap, staff let go, debts and obligations remain. Certainly nobody is throwing more capital into expanding production. Industry is in “get what you can because there may not be a tomorrow”… Read more »
@TLS
Have you changed your mind? In another thread you indicated you don’t support what you wrote above.
Do you still think the government should limit sales?
Should those limited sales be at the price you are complaining about, or at a lower price you feel is fair?
There is already a LAW that covers this. It’s called the law of supply and demand – better known as CAPITALISM! The government already suppresses free enterprise far beyond the point of anything covered by “enumerated” in the US Constitution. I just start shaking anytime I hear the phrase “There ought to be a law!”. We have a frickin’ gazillion laws already. That’s why lowlife lawyers run this country. That said, I wish you would change your user name. I have been on these threads long before you showed up with the user name “Terry”. Comments like yours are getting… Read more »
What is your point?
You can not possibly be that lame and if so not much point to furthering the conversation.
I’m not lame.
I believe in a free market.
You said the price increased – what is your point?
Of course the price increased.
Are you stating your surprise?
Or, are you stating your outrage?
Do you want someone “to do something?”
Do you support a planned economy?
Do you support government owning the means to production?
What is your point?
I responded with questions, but the moderator did not like that response for some reason. It did not include any personal attacks.
JSNMGC,
The auto-filter caught your comment, I’m not sure why. I’ve restored it. Flush your cache and reload, it should show up.
Ok, thanks.
In the interim Terry explained what he wanted.
I can just see some government employee standing in every little gun shop in America telling the owners they can only sell one box of ammo to each customer that does not bribe the government employee.
SOLD OUT…
So not price gouging. Just priced to market.
A screwed up market, but fair price anyway.
Fair price is defined as whatever buyer and seller freely agree to.