Opinion
Ft Collins, CO –-(Ammoland.com)- Getting involved in other peoples’ business never ends well.
Last Friday, officers with the Portland (OR) State University Police confronted a man on campus, who had a gun in his hand. The man appeared to represent a threat.
Officers shot the suspect. The suspect was DRT. No other injuries.
Details such as numbers of shot fired, distance, verbal challenges by police, etc have not been reported.
The suspect apparently had a valid state-issued CCW permit. Witnesses say he was in the process of trying to “break-up a fight,” in which he was not otherwise involved.
Witnesses also say the suspect’s holstered pistol (apparently legally carried) somehow fell out of its belt-holster (assuming it was actually carried in a holster) as he tried to pull one combatant off of another.
When the suspect attempted to retrieve his pistol, officers arrived and saw a gun in his hand.
Of course, arriving officer knew few details, aside from the fact that they were confronting a man with a gun in his hand.
The suspect/decedent turned out to be a postal worker with no criminal record. It is likely that he had no criminal intent at the time and place in question, but of course, we’ll never know.
Predictably, many on campus have since called for the campus PD to be disarmed. The controversy and the investigation are ongoing.
Predictably, critics of the police are censuring their actions, citing facts and circumstances not known to police at the scene.
Among the ignorant, this is typical!
Sometimes, armed police officers have no choice but to employ deadly force, making their decision in dangerous, chaotic, and rapidly-evolving circumstances.
They are armed for a reason.
They do the best they can, but, they don’t have x-ray vision, nor are they able to read minds.
With the foregoing in mind, here are important lessons for the rest of us, particularly those of us who have valid CCW permits, and routinely go armed:
- First and foremost, do your best to avoid places and times where the foregoing is even a probability.
- Be extremely disinclined to precipitously insert yourself into any potentially violent circumstance, in which you were not otherwise involved.
In these cases, the best strategy is usually represented by withdrawing a safe distance away, and then calling the police.
That’s why we pay a police department. Unlike you, they are equipped, trained, and organized to effectively deal with these kinds of things.
The foregoing advice also applies even to ununiformed and off-duty LEOs. You usually don’t know enough to go blundering in there by yourself.
You carry that pistol so you have an effective means immediately at hand to protect your life from precipitous, deadly, and otherwise-unavoidable threats! Don’t be anxious to manufacture a situation where you have to use it.
Stepping forward on your own initiative in an effort to “break-up fights,” or “settle arguments” is very unlikely to bring forth a “happy ending,” in any event, and once your gun is exposed and involved, nothing “good” is going to happen.
(2) Who have “good intent” or “evil intent” don’t normally wear labels identifying them as such.
Arriving police can’t look at you and instantly tell that you’re a “good guy.”
When you have a gun in your hand (no matter in what direction it’s pointed), you’re just “… a man with a gun!”
Under cross-examination, I was once asked if a particular person “looks like a ‘bad guy’” I replied, “I’m not all sure I know what ‘bad guys’ look like, Counselor. Do you?”
(3) When instructing on these matters, we cannot specifically address every conceivable situation in which you might ever find yourself. The best we can do is provide you with sound “guidance”
My purpose is not to tell you what to do. It’s to make sure you know and understand what is probably going to happen when you do.
(4) I believe it takes an evil person to do an evil thing. I don’t think good people do evil things, but sometimes good people do stupid things, and consequences can be just as bad.
Who go armed need to be genuinely good people, but smart as well.
/John
About John Farnam & Defense Training International, Inc
As a defensive weapons and tactics instructor John Farnam will urge you, based on your own beliefs, to make up your mind in advance as to what you would do when faced with an imminent lethal threat. You should, of course, also decide what preparations you should make in advance if any. Defense Training International wants to make sure that their students fully understand the physical, legal, psychological, and societal consequences of their actions or in-actions.
It is our duty to make you aware of certain unpleasant physical realities intrinsic to the Planet Earth. Mr. Farnam is happy to be your counselor and advisor. Visit: www.defense-training.com
I hadn’t noticed any protests or riots about this….. No nonstop reporting about it on every station either. Hmmm.
Several good points – as well as bad – have been made by as many Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Hopefully, everyone who reads up on this tragedy should take the manifold lessons contained therein to heart. Select a quality holster and gunbelt that keeps your weapon in place during strenuous activity. In urban environments, it should be concealed. Wearing a pistol does not make one any more of a master pistolero than owning a great guitar makes one a rock star guitarist: Training and Practice is everything. When you strap on your sidearm and walk out the door, leave the super… Read more »
My thoughts are that police should focus training models more in line with German GSG9 and focus on a higher quality of applied training that can be studied at home and applied during routine training sessions at the department’s range. I also believe Glock design and triggers attribute to many unnecessary discharges in part due to lack of routine and quality training also. I know the training budget is not a priority for our politicians, nor is protecting our children in schools. Just my 2 cents.
I read about this on another website. The story they told was that the police arrived and the gun was on the ground and the fight was still in progress. The person that was shot was attempting to pick up the gun. They ordered him to not pick it up. He still tried to pick it up and they shot him after giving him orders not to pick it up. I think they are looking at body camera footage. Often the law enforcement officers are going into a situation not having a lot of information other than the call to… Read more »
@H. Spires, We are grateful that you could add some facts. It still seems like a lot of ground between giving an order to not pick up the gun … to the officers “feared for their lives”. If the law of self defense allowed police officers to shoot people for not obeying orders, then the police state would be complete, and our Right to live would no longer exist. I hope that there are more facts, but if the campus police were wrong, then what is the compensation for loss of the one and only life that the man will… Read more »
At what point should they have defended themselves? When he picked it up and shot one of them? They have a dangerous job that doesn’t give them second chances if they get shot. They go into situations where they have absolutely no knowledge of the character or skill level of the people they are dealing with. How many times have officers been shot for being careless in a situation that they thought was under control? How many officers have been just randomly targeted because of the fact that they are wearing a uniform that somebody despises? Death doesn’t give second… Read more »
You are so right you don’t know until the situation arise at an instant you have to make a split decision
There are three responses to danger, FREEZE, FLIGHT or FIGHT. Generally speaking, in our current society, the first two are the most prevalent.
Being a cop is a dangerous job but some take it to the extremes and should be one bullet barneys. Maybe being a cop in U.K. would be a better challenge because all they can carry is pepper spray. Irregardless, there are a lot of cops that treat legal carriers like they don’t have any business with a gun and that just compounds some problems.
And if this cop had been a soldier in a war zone, he’d be on his way to Leavenworth for an illegal killing. The time of a cop being able to shoot someone because the cop “feared for his life” is over. If the cop had not been a police officer and shot the victim, he would have been charged for manslaughter. Sorry, cops need to be held to the same requirements as non-police would be in the same situation. Cops drawing their weapons and pointing them at an unarmed suspect are just as guilty of aggravated assault as a… Read more »
I beg to differ
You are wrong
That time will never be over for an officer who has to make split second decisions. There are a lot of people that are unarmed that are still very dangerous and someone holding a gun after being directed to disarm is definitely a threat
@JLS, I concur with all that you wrote except your implication that police officers are held to some lower self defense standard. Police are held to the same deadly force/ self defense standards as everyone else in their given jurisdiction. The prosecutor has to measure the facts against the law, and then make a charging decision. The actor has to be ready and able to convincingly articulate why he was reasonably in fear of his life or great bodily harm.
I believe from what is in the article there is an enormous amount of unknown info so maybe we should wait until the facts are known before voicing an opinion. Opinions are useless until the facts are in evidence. As to the “what ever happen to protect and serve” comments I doubt if that “expert” ever had to make a determination in less than a second whether to draw and shoot or someone else get shot. It takes at least 1.5 seconds or more (usually more) to draw, aim and fire. It takes 1.5 seconds for someone with a knife… Read more »
Well stated circle 8.
Well from what I read,know body knows not much of nothing yet.Question,How is everyone making all these judgements when they no jack squat.
@DK, an excellent observation!
Interesting article. “Security officers” at a school are not always trained to handle a violent situation especially when a gun makes an appearance. I’ve had experiences with both good and bad cops. I always carry concealed, even when the only concealment is a tee shirt. One was after calling 911 after discovering 2 break-ins in my ‘hood’. A VTSP cop arrived, and after a short conversation, said “I’ll follow you”. I informed him I was carrying, and he said, “OK, now where’s the first house”. The second was a local sheriff deputy who ‘caught me’ in the forest a few… Read more »
This is a sad day, I heart goes out to the families. I very sad situation. Should not have occurred, I believe, with the limited knowledge I have, was a true accident. Times have changed, When I went through the police academy, the last thing you should ever do is draw your weapon, unless the situation called for it. You better be “In Fear For Your Life”! No cop wants to go to prison or live with the memories of a bad shooting. That training was from the beginning to the graduation and does come in to your mind every… Read more »
I say this as a former cop… 1; the guy should have tried out his holster for retention. Not got involved in other peoples problems unless it is a life or death type situation. 2; due to piss fucking poor training,, and or the current climate of anti gun cops and the climate of shoot a cop roast a pig, cops are shooting first without interaction with the suspect. 3;I have seen too many bad shoots covered up by the chief and mayor. Too many times a shooting comes close to election season, right rahmmie boy, who’s dad was a… Read more »
Joe: I highly doubt you were a cop. First, your sentence structure and punctuation is on par with a fifth grade elementary school student. Secondly, if you were a real cop you know to withhold judgement until all of the facts are collected. Third, unless you were a member of the agency involved in the above shooting you have no clue as to their training regimen. Hopefully you never strap on a firearm. If so; give others plenty of warning so they can steer clear of you.
An armed citizen has no duty to protect. Curiously, neither does a police officer under current popular officer safety rules. Protect yourself….just like the police do. And mind your own business.
Actually, it is a SCOTUS ruling that police have no duty to protect individuals, not ‘current popular officer safety rules’ (whatever those might be). Nice try; no cigar.
I carry to protect me and mine, not to brake up fights between unknows, not my job.
It appears many leo no longer use critical thinking skills. Maybe it’s related to the militarization of the police forces that has occurred over the last few decades. I don’t see it getting better, only worse.
Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? Put up or shut up. P.S. ‘Militarization’ of the police? WHAT A CROCK OF BS!
If one carefully analyzes the statistics from the various LEO reporting websites across the Nation, one will soon come the conclusion that the odds of being involved in an armed conflict, they increases significantly when these two dynamics are present together. 1.) You are a legal, responsible gun owner, with a Permit or License, you carry concealed, and.. for some reason, not by your intended choice,…. 2.) You happen to have some sort of interaction with a Licensed Armed Police Officer. Once again, not by your choice. Open carry in your State if sanctioned by legislators, and the risk gets… Read more »
3 decades ago only the police, the politically connected & the criminals were carrying handguns.
Mr. Walkker, Yeah, there is something definitely wrong when police point deadly weapons at people that are not posing a risk to them. It seems to me that anyone that intentionally points a gun at me, when I have posed no danger to them, has committed an assault, and has the means and exhibits the immediate intent to commit a life ending battery!
It cannot be that every young LEO coming out of an academy is a Barney Fife … can it?
And further, any of them will do whatever, WHATEVER, they are ordered to do. F that, I’ve quit jobs for being TOLD to do certain thing that were just wrong , not criminal, just morally wrong. Well, one probably was criminal.
Hey, we were just following orders. And, many of them ARE ignorant of the law. Sorry my friend, it’s the truth.
Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? Put up or shut up.
They’re equipped, trained and organized to handle such things effectively, yeah bullshit. Let’s roll up and kill the one person trying to help. Im so sick and tired of this damn notion that the police are some bunch of white knights. They’re not. They’re made up of the same, fallible entities as the population is made of, human beings, except this group knows they will rarely, if ever, be made to pay for their deadly mistakes like the rest of us. Look, believe it or not, I’m not anti-police, I’m not but I’m sick and tired of hearing how 99%of… Read more »
In accordance with the new post 911 police state, I have seen it written that no one with an IQ of over 100 will be considered for the job. They want only people who will follow orders or policy without thinking or asking questions. It’s sort of like affirmative action for not so bright people. And I do believe that the Milgram Experiment will factor in there, if any of you would care to google that one up, and you should because it explains a whole lot. The powers that be know exactly what they are doing. And they have… Read more »
Next flight to Canada departs in 10 minutes. You won’t be missed. Buh-bye!
AMEN
So which the f**K is it? We go armed to protect ourselves ,families and fellow citizens or do we run and hide like the pantywastes you claim to abhors? Make up your damned mind.
Bill: I have made up my mind. Your opinion is ignorant, worthless and immature. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Someone finally wrote the truth
I don’t buy it. Cops have the attitude that as long as the LEO goes home safely all is well. There are far too many trigger-happy cops out there who shoot first and ask questions later. WTF ever happened with “Too Serve and Protect?” PERHAPS most cops are good people trying to perform a difficult job. So what! They volunteered for the job. Also, ALL Law Enforcement agencies should be demilitarized. I’m sick and tired of cops killing innocent victims with no repercussions! Their so-called investigations are simply cops investigating cops. It’s BS.Screw THEM!
The guy was an idiot in my opinion, and on so many levels. First, he brought a gun to a bar. Second, he didn’t use a holster but a pocket clip. Third, Wearing a gun in plain view like that was purely designed to intimidate others or he liked the ego rush of people seeing him with a gun. Fourth, he got involved in a physical altercation that was none of his business. Fifth, he did not heed the orders to drop the gun immediately. We can argue that the Campus Security over-reacted all day, but if I were in… Read more »
SuperG has very succinctly nailed it (assuming his background info is correct – I couldn’t get the video to play). Only his third and fourth points are unfounded speculations unless he personally knew the victim – open carry does not automatically mean an intent to intimidate, and I doubt that there is evidence in the video that is irrefutable evidence that he did not know any parties to the brawl. I strongly agree with his fifth point – that would have probably saved his life. ALWAYS comply – if the orders are illegal, let your attorney sort them out later,… Read more »
I am sure the taxpayers in OR will pay the victim’s family handsomely to make them go away. I see a consistent theme in these types of shootings. They involve sworn public safety personnel who are not employed by public agencies that are a state, county or city. These officers may receive the same initial training as their counterparts employed by state, county or city; however, their work experiences & ongoing training is not the same. I blame the federal & state legislatures who passed the laws that allow these non government public agencies to have armed police forces. The… Read more »
@Super, I did not read anything in the article about the police giving or the decedent receiving any orders to drop anything or any orders of any kind. The article says, “Details such as numbers of shot fired, distance, verbal challenges by police, etc have not been reported.” If someone gave orders, then I would think that some surviving witnesses would report hearing the giving of orders. I don’t think that these campus police are authorized to shoot someone dead just because “officers arrived and saw a gun in his hand.” I guess I’d have to check with the Board… Read more »
Wild Bilge: If you are facing someone pointing a firearm at you the LAST thing you care about is some bozo Board of Regents and their rules. And at times there is no time to give a lawful order. My thoughts now turn to ‘I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six’. P.S. Do you actually read what you post?
First, gun in bar in Oregin is fully legal, as long as you don’t drink IN THERE. No toxocilogy reports available yet. You are assuming he was drinking. Guns and alcohol do not mix? No proof they WERE being mixed. I’m certain if that guy’s BAC were signficant, the coppers would have been tooting that horn loudlyh, and the liberal press i Pee Town would be ballyhooie case invovling “armed drunk gets shot”. Trust me, they’d DO that in a heartbeat. That IS Portland….. YOU don’t know that town like I do. Second, how do you know WHAT his carry… Read more »