Opinion
Ft Collins, CO –-(Ammoland.com)- Getting involved in other peoples’ business never ends well.
Last Friday, officers with the Portland (OR) State University Police confronted a man on campus, who had a gun in his hand. The man appeared to represent a threat.
Officers shot the suspect. The suspect was DRT. No other injuries.
Details such as numbers of shot fired, distance, verbal challenges by police, etc have not been reported.
The suspect apparently had a valid state-issued CCW permit. Witnesses say he was in the process of trying to “break-up a fight,” in which he was not otherwise involved.
Witnesses also say the suspect’s holstered pistol (apparently legally carried) somehow fell out of its belt-holster (assuming it was actually carried in a holster) as he tried to pull one combatant off of another.
When the suspect attempted to retrieve his pistol, officers arrived and saw a gun in his hand.
Of course, arriving officer knew few details, aside from the fact that they were confronting a man with a gun in his hand.
The suspect/decedent turned out to be a postal worker with no criminal record. It is likely that he had no criminal intent at the time and place in question, but of course, we’ll never know.
Predictably, many on campus have since called for the campus PD to be disarmed. The controversy and the investigation are ongoing.
Predictably, critics of the police are censuring their actions, citing facts and circumstances not known to police at the scene.
Among the ignorant, this is typical!
Sometimes, armed police officers have no choice but to employ deadly force, making their decision in dangerous, chaotic, and rapidly-evolving circumstances.
They are armed for a reason.
They do the best they can, but, they don’t have x-ray vision, nor are they able to read minds.
With the foregoing in mind, here are important lessons for the rest of us, particularly those of us who have valid CCW permits, and routinely go armed:
- First and foremost, do your best to avoid places and times where the foregoing is even a probability.
- Be extremely disinclined to precipitously insert yourself into any potentially violent circumstance, in which you were not otherwise involved.
In these cases, the best strategy is usually represented by withdrawing a safe distance away, and then calling the police.
That’s why we pay a police department. Unlike you, they are equipped, trained, and organized to effectively deal with these kinds of things.
The foregoing advice also applies even to ununiformed and off-duty LEOs. You usually don’t know enough to go blundering in there by yourself.
You carry that pistol so you have an effective means immediately at hand to protect your life from precipitous, deadly, and otherwise-unavoidable threats! Don’t be anxious to manufacture a situation where you have to use it.
Stepping forward on your own initiative in an effort to “break-up fights,” or “settle arguments” is very unlikely to bring forth a “happy ending,” in any event, and once your gun is exposed and involved, nothing “good” is going to happen.
(2) Who have “good intent” or “evil intent” don’t normally wear labels identifying them as such.
Arriving police can’t look at you and instantly tell that you’re a “good guy.”
When you have a gun in your hand (no matter in what direction it’s pointed), you’re just “… a man with a gun!”
Under cross-examination, I was once asked if a particular person “looks like a ‘bad guy’” I replied, “I'm not all sure I know what ‘bad guys’ look like, Counselor. Do you?”
(3) When instructing on these matters, we cannot specifically address every conceivable situation in which you might ever find yourself. The best we can do is provide you with sound “guidance”
My purpose is not to tell you what to do. It’s to make sure you know and understand what is probably going to happen when you do.
(4) I believe it takes an evil person to do an evil thing. I don’t think good people do evil things, but sometimes good people do stupid things, and consequences can be just as bad.
Who go armed need to be genuinely good people, but smart as well.
/John
About John Farnam & Defense Training International, Inc
As a defensive weapons and tactics instructor John Farnam will urge you, based on your own beliefs, to make up your mind in advance as to what you would do when faced with an imminent lethal threat. You should, of course, also decide what preparations you should make in advance if any. Defense Training International wants to make sure that their students fully understand the physical, legal, psychological, and societal consequences of their actions or in-actions.
It is our duty to make you aware of certain unpleasant physical realities intrinsic to the Planet Earth. Mr. Farnam is happy to be your counselor and advisor. Visit: www.defense-training.com
I hadn’t noticed any protests or riots about this….. No nonstop reporting about it on every station either. Hmmm.
Several good points – as well as bad – have been made by as many Monday Morning Quarterbacks. Hopefully, everyone who reads up on this tragedy should take the manifold lessons contained therein to heart. Select a quality holster and gunbelt that keeps your weapon in place during strenuous activity. In urban environments, it should be concealed. Wearing a pistol does not make one any more of a master pistolero than owning a great guitar makes one a rock star guitarist: Training and Practice is everything. When you strap on your sidearm and walk out the door, leave the super hero costume and your ego behind. Be humble, accommodating, and kind to everyone you encounter, but have a plan to kill them, if not with kindness while exiting the situation, then with whatever level of force is needed to get to safety. Do not get involved with other people’s interpersonal problems… You have enough of your own, so Leave. Immediately. Why talk to people you don’t know and (hopefully) will never see again? If you are faced with deadly force or a disparity of force of violence which you can reasonably expect to cause you Great Bodily Harm or Death, use whatever means available to you to abate the threat, find safe Cover, reload, holster (concealed, right), then call 911. If the BG(s) runs off, let him/them do so.Give 911 your description, the description of the Bad Guy(s), last known location/direction of travel, etc. and a generic description of what happened (X guy tried to rob/car-jack/mug/me, knife/shoot me, etc.), As soon as the Uniforms show up, keep your hands visible and do EXACTLY what they say. If they want to question you, tell them you would like to give them a statement, but only after you have consulted an attorney and tell them you want to call them NOW that they have arrived. Then You do not say another word. Not One Word More until you have consulted with your attorney. You should have Insurance, too. A defensive weapon is not a talisman. It is a(nother) tool to enable you to survive interpersonal conflicts imposed on you, not ones you have sought put. The Mind is your primary Survival Tool, all else is secondary. Use your Mind to train and condition yourself for the Unexpected so you are never dealing with the Unanticipated. Unfortunately, our presumed Good Guy was not prepared. YMMV.
My thoughts are that police should focus training models more in line with German GSG9 and focus on a higher quality of applied training that can be studied at home and applied during routine training sessions at the department’s range. I also believe Glock design and triggers attribute to many unnecessary discharges in part due to lack of routine and quality training also. I know the training budget is not a priority for our politicians, nor is protecting our children in schools. Just my 2 cents.
I read about this on another website. The story they told was that the police arrived and the gun was on the ground and the fight was still in progress. The person that was shot was attempting to pick up the gun. They ordered him to not pick it up. He still tried to pick it up and they shot him after giving him orders not to pick it up. I think they are looking at body camera footage. Often the law enforcement officers are going into a situation not having a lot of information other than the call to them from a 911 radio dispatch. Sometimes they will be given info such as a gun involved. They have tough jobs and have to make split second decisions that could be the difference between them being shot or having to shoot somebody else. I have been to two officers funerals. They are human just like the rest of us. Humans brains are wired from survival instincts to flee from danger. Law officers have to go to a dangerous situation. I don’t care how many times that you go into something like they do, they still are nervous and have their adrenaline going. They will never be perfect because they are human.
@H. Spires, We are grateful that you could add some facts. It still seems like a lot of ground between giving an order to not pick up the gun … to the officers “feared for their lives”. If the law of self defense allowed police officers to shoot people for not obeying orders, then the police state would be complete, and our Right to live would no longer exist.
I hope that there are more facts, but if the campus police were wrong, then what is the compensation for loss of the one and only life that the man will ever have?
At what point should they have defended themselves? When he picked it up and shot one of them? They have a dangerous job that doesn’t give them second chances if they get shot. They go into situations where they have absolutely no knowledge of the character or skill level of the people they are dealing with. How many times have officers been shot for being careless in a situation that they thought was under control? How many officers have been just randomly targeted because of the fact that they are wearing a uniform that somebody despises? Death doesn’t give second chances to either side in this situation if the officer had not shot the person and that person turned the gun on one of them. I know of a little girl that lost her daddy a couple of years ago because he gave a drug dealer the benefit of a doubt. She now will grow up with only the memories that her mother tells her about. She was only 6 months old when he was killed. He was shot when he stepped out of his car. There are losses on both sides of the law that are possibly wrong but humans will make mistakes. The job hardens the ones that see the things that they see on a day to day basis. Paramedics, firemen, law officers and others that work accident scenes have to deal with tragedy. It has to build up inside of them and sooner or later they have to think about themselves being that other person. I am sure that the officer that shot this man in this story will have a hard time living with what happened. Taking another human beings life is not an easy thing to do. Living with it afterward is even harder. I was a Correctional Officer for 14 years. During that time I had to work posts that required me to carry a gun. I knew that it was my job to defend the public if it came down to it but I also hoped that I would never have to. They had broken the law but they were still human beings.
You are so right you don’t know until the situation arise at an instant you have to make a split decision
There are three responses to danger, FREEZE, FLIGHT or FIGHT. Generally speaking, in our current society, the first two are the most prevalent.
Being a cop is a dangerous job but some take it to the extremes and should be one bullet barneys. Maybe being a cop in U.K. would be a better challenge because all they can carry is pepper spray. Irregardless, there are a lot of cops that treat legal carriers like they don’t have any business with a gun and that just compounds some problems.
And if this cop had been a soldier in a war zone, he’d be on his way to Leavenworth for an illegal killing. The time of a cop being able to shoot someone because the cop “feared for his life” is over. If the cop had not been a police officer and shot the victim, he would have been charged for manslaughter. Sorry, cops need to be held to the same requirements as non-police would be in the same situation. Cops drawing their weapons and pointing them at an unarmed suspect are just as guilty of aggravated assault as a non-police officer doing the same thing would be. There is no law that places a higher value on a policeman’s life than on someone not in law enforcement. Police have no more “right” to kill someone to because “they feel threatened” than a civilian does in the same situation. Someone holding a gun is not a threat, someone pointing a gun at you is, simple.
I beg to differ
You are wrong
That time will never be over for an officer who has to make split second decisions. There are a lot of people that are unarmed that are still very dangerous and someone holding a gun after being directed to disarm is definitely a threat
@JLS, I concur with all that you wrote except your implication that police officers are held to some lower self defense standard. Police are held to the same deadly force/ self defense standards as everyone else in their given jurisdiction. The prosecutor has to measure the facts against the law, and then make a charging decision. The actor has to be ready and able to convincingly articulate why he was reasonably in fear of his life or great bodily harm.
I believe from what is in the article there is an enormous amount of unknown info so maybe we should wait until the facts are known before voicing an opinion. Opinions are useless until the facts are in evidence. As to the “what ever happen to protect and serve” comments I doubt if that “expert” ever had to make a determination in less than a second whether to draw and shoot or someone else get shot. It takes at least 1.5 seconds or more (usually more) to draw, aim and fire. It takes 1.5 seconds for someone with a knife to travel 21 feet so you can figure out how much faster a person with a gun can do you harm. Unless you practice constantly, like every week, the first shot will probably go low and wild. Then the battle to survive is on. Police Officers do not train every week, some departments require yearly qualification yet some only require monthly or maybe quarterly. You do not become proficient at that rate. Professional competitive shooters can shoot extremely fast BUT they shoot thousands of rounds per week in practice.
The other comment I have is unless yours or a family/friend’s life is on the line it is better for a private citizen to be a good witness instead of a participant. God Bless this man for trying to keep the peace and obviously he was trying to be a good citizen but it cost him his life. For that I am sure all those involved are truly sorry. That does not bring him back but this action and results was avoidable.
Well stated circle 8.
Well from what I read,know body knows not much of nothing yet.Question,How is everyone making all these judgements when they no jack squat.
@DK, an excellent observation!
Interesting article. “Security officers” at a school are not always trained to handle a violent situation especially when a gun makes an appearance. I’ve had experiences with both good and bad cops. I always carry concealed, even when the only concealment is a tee shirt. One was after calling 911 after discovering 2 break-ins in my ‘hood’. A VTSP cop arrived, and after a short conversation, said “I’ll follow you”. I informed him I was carrying, and he said, “OK, now where’s the first house”. The second was a local sheriff deputy who ‘caught me’ in the forest a few miles from my home. I was looking for a space to sight in (roughly-on paper) a new scope on a lever 22. He stated that I was on a public thorofare and was therefor not allowed to have a loaded gun. Rather than argue, I ‘apologised’ and put the lever back in my car. I saw no reason to talk further with this uninformed idiot while out on the far end of a dirt road in the forest. I didn’t bother to mention that I had a CCW nor that I was carrying concealed.
This is a sad day, I heart goes out to the families. I very sad situation. Should not have occurred, I believe, with the limited knowledge I have, was a true accident.
Times have changed, When I went through the police academy, the last thing you should ever do is draw your weapon, unless the situation called for it. You better be “In Fear For Your Life”! No cop wants to go to prison or live with the memories of a bad shooting. That training was from the beginning to the graduation and does come in to your mind every time you put the uniform on and hit the streets. In Breaking up fights, If you intercede and you are an untrained armed civilian you are introducing a weapon in to an uncontrollable situation. The police, real police, are trained in breaking up fights and not putting their weapon in the hands of a angry participant.
I carry a weapon because I want to protect my loved ones and myself, but, I also use my head and I do not intentionally place myself or my loved ones in potentially dangerous situations. The weapon is there for situations that I did not foresee as hazardous to our lives and safety. Unless, someone’s life is in danger, my weapon will be in my holster and I will call 911. Even if I do have to expose and use my weapon I will have 911 on line as soon as possible. I will make my weapon safe, when the police arrive I will NOT have any weapon in my hand and I will be on the ground with my hands behind my head.
My weapon is there to protect my life, the lives of my loved ones and, if necessary, the lives of others. It is not there to protect property. I am not a policeman or a fireman, protecting property is their job. Stopping someone from immediately hurting or killing a member of my family, including me, is my job. In a fight situation, call 911 do not try and break it up. When you try and break up a fight between two men remember, if armed, you are making a weapon available to the people fighting. They could, as we were taught, take your weapon and turn it on you. If nothing else, both could beat you and put you in the hospital. Call 911 always.
I say this as a former cop… 1; the guy should have tried out his holster for retention. Not got involved in other peoples problems unless it is a life or death type situation. 2; due to piss fucking poor training,, and or the current climate of anti gun cops and the climate of shoot a cop roast a pig, cops are shooting first without interaction with the suspect. 3;I have seen too many bad shoots covered up by the chief and mayor. Too many times a shooting comes close to election season, right rahmmie boy, who’s dad was a known killer terrorist. Chicago mayor… Google it…. I have seen times where the cops give conflicting orders and kill unarmed people “because they didnt follow instructions”and the union backs them even though orders of “dont move, get down, and hands up”were given at the same time…..
Politeness, civility, honor, lawfulness…
Keep control of your weapons, dont get involved in petty crap. Know that we were taught that if we were there there is always a gun in play.
Ffs… dont do anything stupid… go home at night, not to a cell or worse a slab.. pick your battles, .. this breaks my heart for this to happen… yes, I will defend mine, strategically, tactically, and practically, not blindly.
Overall scenario, immediate threats, what I have to defeat same threats, and action vs inaction chances to survive incident. I hope it is clearer for those strapping on a gun.
Joe: I highly doubt you were a cop. First, your sentence structure and punctuation is on par with a fifth grade elementary school student. Secondly, if you were a real cop you know to withhold judgement until all of the facts are collected. Third, unless you were a member of the agency involved in the above shooting you have no clue as to their training regimen. Hopefully you never strap on a firearm. If so; give others plenty of warning so they can steer clear of you.
An armed citizen has no duty to protect. Curiously, neither does a police officer under current popular officer safety rules. Protect yourself….just like the police do. And mind your own business.
Actually, it is a SCOTUS ruling that police have no duty to protect individuals, not ‘current popular officer safety rules’ (whatever those might be). Nice try; no cigar.
I carry to protect me and mine, not to brake up fights between unknows, not my job.
It appears many leo no longer use critical thinking skills. Maybe it’s related to the militarization of the police forces that has occurred over the last few decades. I don’t see it getting better, only worse.
Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? Put up or shut up. P.S. ‘Militarization’ of the police? WHAT A CROCK OF BS!
If one carefully analyzes the statistics from the various LEO reporting websites across the Nation, one will soon come the conclusion that the odds of being involved in an armed conflict, they increases significantly when these two dynamics are present together.
1.) You are a legal, responsible gun owner, with a Permit or License, you carry concealed, and.. for some reason, not by your intended choice,….
2.) You happen to have some sort of interaction with a Licensed Armed Police Officer. Once again, not by your choice.
Open carry in your State if sanctioned by legislators, and the risk gets even dicier depending on your own geographical location and zip code. This new increased risk of death and murder by Police, is a direct result of today’s recruiting practices, and the types of Police training forced upon these young mold-able and meld-able minds of young recruits. The new Policing mantra being taught at the Academy is is to simply “shoot first, then ask questions’. The new Police Cadets, they will confirm this fact, The numbers show that you have a better chance of surviving and encounter with Police if you are unarmed. These are Facts. That sucks, it really sucks bad. But the numbers do not misrepresent the Facts. The numbers are there for anyone to see for them selves. I believe it is a very sad state of affairs when the Good Samaritans are viewed as the enemy by Police. Three decades ago, this was not the case. What a mess.
3 decades ago only the police, the politically connected & the criminals were carrying handguns.
Mr. Walkker, Yeah, there is something definitely wrong when police point deadly weapons at people that are not posing a risk to them. It seems to me that anyone that intentionally points a gun at me, when I have posed no danger to them, has committed an assault, and has the means and exhibits the immediate intent to commit a life ending battery!
It cannot be that every young LEO coming out of an academy is a Barney Fife … can it?
And further, any of them will do whatever, WHATEVER, they are ordered to do. F that, I’ve quit jobs for being TOLD to do certain thing that were just wrong , not criminal, just morally wrong. Well, one probably was criminal.
Hey, we were just following orders. And, many of them ARE ignorant of the law. Sorry my friend, it’s the truth.
Then why don’t YOU become a police officer and show us all how it SHOULD be done? Put up or shut up.
They’re equipped, trained and organized to handle such things effectively, yeah bullshit. Let’s roll up and kill the one person trying to help.
Im so sick and tired of this damn notion that the police are some bunch of white knights. They’re not. They’re made up of the same, fallible entities as the population is made of, human beings, except this group knows they will rarely, if ever, be made to pay for their deadly mistakes like the rest of us.
Look, believe it or not, I’m not anti-police, I’m not but I’m sick and tired of hearing how 99%of them are true professionals and it’s ALWAYS that small 1%that makes them look bed. B. U. L. L S. H. I. T You know damn good and well that most of them are extremely arrogant, cocky and A types, AND, they get to carry guns. What do you think going to happen. How do think they’re going to act when they can Lord authority over the rest of us? It kills me that you are able to apply this logic to Leftists but not police. There’s not that much difference you know.
In accordance with the new post 911 police state, I have seen it written that no one with an IQ of over 100 will be considered for the job. They want only people who will follow orders or policy without thinking or asking questions. It’s sort of like affirmative action for not so bright people. And I do believe that the Milgram Experiment will factor in there, if any of you would care to google that one up, and you should because it explains a whole lot. The powers that be know exactly what they are doing. And they have no need for Officer Friendly’s, or Marshall Dillons for that matter.
Next flight to Canada departs in 10 minutes. You won’t be missed. Buh-bye!
AMEN
So which the f**K is it? We go armed to protect ourselves ,families and fellow citizens or do we run and hide like the pantywastes you claim to abhors? Make up your damned mind.
Bill: I have made up my mind. Your opinion is ignorant, worthless and immature. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Someone finally wrote the truth
I don’t buy it. Cops have the attitude that as long as the LEO goes home safely all is well. There are far too many trigger-happy cops out there who shoot first and ask questions later. WTF ever happened with “Too Serve and Protect?” PERHAPS most cops are good people trying to perform a difficult job. So what! They volunteered for the job. Also, ALL Law Enforcement agencies should be demilitarized. I’m sick and tired of cops killing innocent victims with no repercussions! Their so-called investigations are simply cops investigating cops. It’s BS.Screw THEM!
The guy was an idiot in my opinion, and on so many levels. First, he brought a gun to a bar. Second, he didn’t use a holster but a pocket clip. Third, Wearing a gun in plain view like that was purely designed to intimidate others or he liked the ego rush of people seeing him with a gun. Fourth, he got involved in a physical altercation that was none of his business. Fifth, he did not heed the orders to drop the gun immediately. We can argue that the Campus Security over-reacted all day, but if I were in the same position in the middle of a melee and saw someone with a gun not obeying direct orders, I’d shoot him too. Guns and alcohol never mix well, EVER!
SuperG has very succinctly nailed it (assuming his background info is correct – I couldn’t get the video to play). Only his third and fourth points are unfounded speculations unless he personally knew the victim – open carry does not automatically mean an intent to intimidate, and I doubt that there is evidence in the video that is irrefutable evidence that he did not know any parties to the brawl. I strongly agree with his fifth point – that would have probably saved his life. ALWAYS comply – if the orders are illegal, let your attorney sort them out later, not your next of kin.
I am sure the taxpayers in OR will pay the victim’s family handsomely to make them go away. I see a consistent theme in these types of shootings. They involve sworn public safety personnel who are not employed by public agencies that are a state, county or city. These officers may receive the same initial training as their counterparts employed by state, county or city; however, their work experiences & ongoing training is not the same. I blame the federal & state legislatures who passed the laws that allow these non government public agencies to have armed police forces. The public would be better served if these agencies were required to contract with a city or county to provide policing services. This arrangement has worked very will in Contra Costa County in CA where the cities incorporated in the 80’s & latter contract with the county sheriff to man the city police department. The cities select the chief.
@Super, I did not read anything in the article about the police giving or the decedent receiving any orders to drop anything or any orders of any kind. The article says, “Details such as numbers of shot fired, distance, verbal challenges by police, etc have not been reported.” If someone gave orders, then I would think that some surviving witnesses would report hearing the giving of orders.
I don’t think that these campus police are authorized to shoot someone dead just because “officers arrived and saw a gun in his hand.” I guess I’d have to check with the Board or Regents on that.
My thoughts now turn to 42 USC 1983.
Wild Bilge: If you are facing someone pointing a firearm at you the LAST thing you care about is some bozo Board of Regents and their rules. And at times there is no time to give a lawful order. My thoughts now turn to ‘I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six’. P.S. Do you actually read what you post?
First, gun in bar in Oregin is fully legal, as long as you don’t drink IN THERE. No toxocilogy reports available yet. You are assuming he was drinking. Guns and alcohol do not mix? No proof they WERE being mixed. I’m certain if that guy’s BAC were signficant, the coppers would have been tooting that horn loudlyh, and the liberal press i Pee Town would be ballyhooie case invovling “armed drunk gets shot”. Trust me, they’d DO that in a heartbeat. That IS Portland….. YOU don’t know that town like I do.
Second, how do you know WHAT his carry rig/retention system was? I’ve seen quite a fw articles on this case, and never seen anything definitive on HOW he was carrying.
Third, make up your mind.. pocket clip is NOT “in plain view”. What ARE you trying to do, play the troll? Furthe,r yoi’ve NO basis for your claim he was after attention, intimidation, or ego rush. Also, didjya know, open carry in Portland without a CCW is illegal? Tha’ts how much they lke guns there. Whenever I’m in Pee Town, I ALWAYS conceal…..
Fourth, we’ve so far hearad nothing about the two in the tussle, nor about the now deceased’s possible relationshop with either of them. HOW do you know it was “none of his business”? From the accounts I’ve read, it started as a verbal disagreement, moved outside, then got [hysical. We do’t yet know at what point it shifted from verbal to physical, nor about his involvement as the situatioin progressed. You are blowing soke out the hole in the top of yer haid…. not wise.
Fifth, as mentioned I’ve read a numer of accounts of this incident, NOWHERE have I seen anything other than that the campus Rent A Cop walked upm, saw the gun, drew, fired. NOTHING about any orders, questions, etc. Again, that hole in the top of yer haid….
As to your last comment… we can all rejoice that you are NOT a LEO. With an attitide like that its only a matter of (not much) time before yo would despatch one or more innocents to their Final Judgement….. as you await your own. So far what I’ve read indicates the guy’s gun had unintentionally fallen to the ground, and he, wanting to retain control of it and (I am speculating, but validlhy so…) keep it OUT of the altercation, moved to retain control of it. NOTHING so far indicates he was pointing, waving about, “brandishing”, threatening, with it. Standing there, gun in hand…. likely moving to replace it into whatever rig/lack of rig he had it in before it fell out.
Trouble comes round when hotheads like you make so many rapid-fire assumptions then ACT stupidly based on your lack of attention, patience, wisdom…..