ATF Issues Conflicting Documents on Legal Pistol Braces

Editors Note: This story has been edited to clarify previous comments and includes additional facts that have come to light since we first posted. The ATF’s confusing and contradictory approval process is an evolving story and we will continue to update and inform our readers as we get better information. Despite rumors, there is no known official change to ATF policy as it relates to the legality of pistol braces.

Also, check out The Truth About Guns’ article “ATF’s False Narrative Surrounding the Legality of SB Tactical Pistol Braces” they did a great job expanding on our report and explaining the issues.

SB Tactical SBPDW and SBM4 Braces IMG SB Tactical gallery
SB Tactical SBPDW and SBM4 Braces IMG SB Tactical gallery

Washington, DC – -(AmmoLand.com)- AmmoLand News and other news organizations have received the document (embedded below) as part of an FOIA request recently submitted to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) after the Agency’s recent Honey Badger pistol brace fiasco.

The ATF turned over the document that alleged the popular pistol brace company SB Tactical had “misinformed the public about its pistol braces’ legality“. The ATF claimed that, despite repeated ATF warnings, that specific SB Tactical Brace models are not, in fact, braces, but instead, stocks that turn pistols into illegal short-barreled rifles in violation of the NFA.

Multiple other approval letters issued by ATF for similar products tell a different story.

SB Tactical points to two classification letters on its braces, but according to the ATF, SB Tactical continues to market and sell dozens of other models not covered by final determination letters. The ATF says that the only two braces covered by the letters are the original SB15 and MPX PSB.

The ATF claims that SB Tactical markets its braces as “ATF Compliant” or “ATF Approved Technology,” but the SBT website does not make that statement about the ATF. AmmoLand News was not able to verify that the company used this language in marketing.

A Freedom of Information Act response selectively released by the ATF FOIA office shows that, on July 18, 2018, the ATF sent a letter to SB Tactical declaring that only two of their model braces had been approved for use as a pistol stabilizing brace. The specific models are the SB tactical SB15 and MPX SB. This single letter is just one small part of greater discussions between ATF and the Firearms industry but it highlights the selective, contradictory, and compartmentalized nature of the ATF approval process.

The ATF letter states that “certain products currently marketed and sold by SB Tactical have not been evaluated nor approved by” ATF, and that “SB Tactical ‘braces’ are being marketed as evaluated and approved by ATF … although, in most cases, no evaluations or classification have ever occurred.”

ATF to SB Tactical Letter July 18th, 2018

The ATF claimed that it “has evaluated only two SB Tactical submissions: the SB15 brace and the MPX PSB brace.” The ATF letter listed a total of 23 SB Tactical braces, including the super-popular SBA3 brace, that was “not submitted nor approved by ATF.” ATF continued that it “does not approve ‘stabilizing braces’ which are similar or based off-shoulder stock designs.”

The letter fails to acknowledge conflicting reports that ATF officials had given SB Tactical the go-ahead to proceed with the development of new braces based on ATF’s initial decision letter.

ATF concluded by warning that “SB Tactical must cease false advertisement of products as ATF approved which have not been evaluated nor approved.” The letter was signed by Michael Curtis, Chief of FTISB within ATF.

No Clear Guidance from ATF

For their part, the ATF would not give SB Tactical, or anyone else in the business of making braces, the language to use on their websites. The Agency was not clear about what is and what isn’t allowed. This answer harkens back to the problem being that the ATF doesn’t have a set standard for pistol braces.

Earlier this year Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz (R-1st District) has sent a pair of scathing letters (reported on here) to Attorney General William Bar and Acting Director Regina Lombardo at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), demanding a halt to the agency’s effort to restrict “the possession of certain pistol braces by American citizens.”

For the past year, SB Tactical and other industry partners have been working in good faith with the ATF to come up with set standards, which makes the content of this FOIA request surprising.

ATF claims that SB Tactical continues to deliberately mislead the public, claiming that its braces are “ATF Compliant,” and continuing to sell millions of SB Tactical braces to unsuspecting gun owners. ATF’s continued lack of clear guidance on what specific features create a pistol brace leaves, law-abiding gun owners, holding the bag and wanting to know what constitutes a legal Brace?

SB Tactical refutes all of the ATF letter’s claims.

Pistol braces are one of the Agency’s top two concerns, along with 80% lower receivers, according to ATF Acting Director Regina Lombardo. It is unusual for information about talks between a company and the ATF to be released to the public.


Update 11/25/2020 and Response from SB Tactical

SB Tactical is aware that in response to FOIA requests from third parties, ATF has released internal documents that confirm the existence of an effort to malign and reclassify products used by millions of law-abiding Americans. Among those documents is an incomplete, redacted criminal evaluation that SB Tactical has never seen before and which contains multiple inaccuracies.

Contrary to the letters’ baseless accusation about SB Tactical’s marketing, SB Tactical has never and would never mislead its customers. SB Tactical has been working with ATF and DOJ for years and has sought determinations from the agency about the status of its products as applied to particular firearms. ATF’s false and irrelevant statements are sadly consistent with an activist and lawless ATF that refuses to engage SB Tactical or manufacturers on the legal status of accessories used by millions of Americans.

SB Tactical finds the motives and actions of the ATF to be arbitrary and capricious. Once again, SB Tactical encourages you to reach out to the White House and ask President Trump to rollback ATF’s agenda while he still can:

  • White House Comment Line:

Residents from the following states and districts should reach out to their congressional representatives to let them know what they think of ATF’s actions:

  • Alabama – Sen. Richard Shelby (R) – Chairman of the Senate Committee on Appropriations and oversees funding of DOJ/ATF. www.shelby.senate.gov/public/
  • Kansas – Sen. Jerry Moran (R) – Chairman of the Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies (CJS) which is responsible for funding the ATF.
  • South Carolina – Sen. Lindsey Graham (R) – Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which is responsible for ATF oversight.
  • Ohio 4th District – Congressman Jim Jordan (R) – Ranking member on the House Judiciary Committee which has jurisdiction over 2nd amendment issues. jordan.house.gov/

Example of other ATF approval Letters to SB Tactical

ATF approval of the SB Tactical SOB and SBM4


FOIA Documents:


About John Crump

John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.

John Crump

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Wokeassrepublican
Wokeassrepublican
10 months ago

Ok I had to register to get in on this one. It is funny how we have been heavily armed for a couple centuries and until around the 80s really had no huge issues with gun violence. When Japan was tossing around the idea of invading us, they realized that they would be picked off by Patriotic Civilians with hunting rifles. I strongly believe that for this reason no country has considered %&#$ing with us. Unfortunately things have changed. We now have such stressful lives with a constant barrage of Fear Propaganda fueling the fire of feeling helpless and impotent.… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago

So, you are against any further gun control and you would like to see violent criminals arrested, convicted, and incarcerated? Or, something else?

Wokeassrepublican
Wokeassrepublican
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I think that according to our constitution , we should have access to anything the military has in order to effectively prohibit tyranny. But should have to swear an oath to protect our sovereignty . Would like arms to be prohibited to people with prior mental issues, but no registry system.
Make criminals do hard labor and deny them the opportunity to sleep with there cellmates. Maybe they would think twice instead of repeat offending.

Wokeassrepublican
Wokeassrepublican
10 months ago

Also want to be clear that I want to see these changes made on a political level. I don’t condone armed violence when diplomacy is available. If we ever had a civil war, opportunist enemies or maybe even UN might see a need to intervene.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago

I agree.

Wokeassrepublican
Wokeassrepublican
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Brother I read all your posts and agree completely. When this covid thing is over, I want to try to get young people involved in CMP and shooting sports. Starting with my nieces and nephews. They are all born to immigrant parents, and will be voting soon. I live in California. So it is like fighting behind enemy lines ! Just gotta plant those seeds. It’s easy to vote against guns if you can’t associate anything positive with them.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago

So many people have heard so many lies about crime, criminals, firearms, and the shooting sports its a whole new world when they actually experience a bunch of safe, normal people enjoying the various shooting sports.

Good luck working with the young folks – it’s a lot of fun very rewarding.

warfinge
warfinge
10 months ago

We keep drawing lines in the sand and the state continuously steps over them. “Cold dead hands” these days has evolved to “after we get used to the last infringement”. The state simply means to disarm us. It isn’t kidding around anymore. They are boldly decreeing you will comply with whatever they demand. Sadly, we seem to be doing just that. By this time next year, they may be doing firearm sweeps with lists of retail buyers.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  warfinge

“They” have been much more effective at organizing, communicating, and getting their candidates elected. A large portion of the firearm community will bluster about buying more firearms and ammunition and talk at length about their “battle plan.” When invited to get involved in actually doing the work required to get a pro 2nd Amendment person elected, a significant percentage of them have some other pressing matter to attend to (church choir practice, music practice for child, sports practice for child, staying at home with the dog while the wife goes out to play Bunco, fishing, changing the oil in their… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  warfinge

warfringe,
My response was censored for some reason. Here’s a shorter version:

  • Pro 2nd Amendment people would have been able to stop many of the advances of the anti-2nd Amendment people if more of us had prioritized our time differently.
  • Firearm sweeps by LEOs with lists in their hand are unlikely. The anti-2nd Amendment people will be content with tens of millions of un-arrested felons. They will confiscate/arrest at a time of their choosing and the laws will be almost exclusively enforced only against people with whom they disagree.
Gene Ralno
Gene Ralno
10 months ago

Seems a bit like prohibiting homemade crutches until HHS issues formal approval. Pity the farmer who breaks a leg. This also reminds me of the colossal number of stupid bureaucratic regulations that were rescinded during President Trump’s administration.

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago

THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN AMERICA IS DEAD!!! WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO DO ABOUT THAT?!! ARM UP!!! GET READY!!!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  nobodyuknow

I’ve educated dozens of white, suburban women on the truth about firearms and violent crime. It changed the way they vote. If all the people on the internet preparing for war would have done that we would have: Less Democrats in office Better Republicans in office than the current ones Less gun control laws Higher conviction rates of violent criminals Less paroles and commutation of sentences for violent criminals More mental institutions Less violent crime Lower taxes More freedom Of course talking to people and making straightforward, factual, logical arguments is more difficult than going on the internet and talking… Read more »

RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Of course talking to people and making straightforward, factual, logical arguments is more difficult than going on the internet and talking about civil war/revolutionary war and taking up arms against tyranny.”

And yet, here you are. Perhaps others can, and do, do that also. Of course, where I live, it’s like preaching to the choir. Got to love Oklahoma.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

There are lots of people that make the argument. I certainly never indicated I was the only one. I hope many more make an attempt to convince others to vote for people who value freedom.

You don’t see me advocating for civil war/revolutionary war and taking up arms against tyranny. Why do you imply that I have done this?

RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I never implied that you have. Once again you have seen what you wanted to see through your filters. I was suggesting that those who were, “advocating for civil war/revolutionary war and taking up arms against tyranny.”, might just be doing the one on one advocacy that you prefer in addition to what you look down on. There are people out there who are capable of juggling more than one ball at a time or walking while chewing gum. And, dare I say it, there is also a place for those whose calling it is to ride through the night… Read more »

Last edited 10 months ago by RoyD
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Stop already: “And yet, here you are” – that was implying that I was doing the same.

Of course people can do both.

The “fight” has been lost with barely a contest state after state. If pro 2nd Amendment folks had engaged in more activism to counter the lies told by politicians and the media over the last 50 years, we wouldn’t be where we are today. All that takes a lot of effort – talking about “riding through the night to sound the alarm” on the internet is as easy as it is ineffective.

Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

“The “fight” has been lost with barely a contest state after state”…
Not to throw a wet blanket on your fire… But that battle was already lost in 1934, and cemented in stone by 1968! It’s a bit late to just be noticing it now…

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Knute

Did they teach you how to read in college?

RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Well, we know that you can read and even write fairly well. It is the comprehension that you seem to have trouble with. I am looking forward to what you write once you make improvements in that area. Onward and upward!

Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

“those whose calling it is to ride through the night to raise the alarm”
A certain silversmith from Boston comes to mind… 😉

RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  Knute

I tried to pay attention in American History class in the eighth grade at Main Junior High in Fairbanks, AK. I certainly did not want to draw the ire of Mrs. Ross. Who, according to her, was a American Indian of Choctaw heritage from northeastern Oklahoma. Let me tell you, you did not want to be on her bad side. She was an extraordinary teacher who gave every one of her students a sense of history along with the facts. They broke the mold when they made her. And yes, “The midnight ride…” and related events were covered in depth… Read more »

Last edited 10 months ago by RoyD
Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Although I did go to college, I have to say; they taught me almost nothing. Either what they taught was useless information, or false. The one thing they taught me how to do was research, and that taught me how to teach myself… so I guess they DID instill ONE useful skill. 🙂

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago

TOTALLY DEFUND THE BATFE NOW!!!!

MAC 10
MAC 10
10 months ago

YAWN….Wake me up when we finally take up arms to stop the unconstitutional tyranny!

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
10 months ago

So long as it is not auto, what Fing difference does it make. The target cant tell what barrel it came out of, it can only show the size of the hole and that doesn’t give the caliber that was used either. At this point, what difference does it make. Legalize everything that is not auto.

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

What has “auto” got to do with anything? It is the right to keep and bear “arms”.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
10 months ago
Reply to  Baldwin

We are not allowed to have automatic machine guns without permits and fees since an illegal law was passed in 1935.. Everything else should be allowed no matter what it is even the attachment that this article is written about It’s not written about fire arms.

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Everything else? My question remains…why are you carving out full auto? If you don’t personally care about full auto, that is fine. But you don’t get to take away everyone else’s full auto choice. You are either pro 2A or you’re not. There is no “I’m pro 2A, but…

Gene Ralno
Gene Ralno
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

And don’t forget these are what protect the president and other dignitaries.

https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-p90/?referrer=law-enforcement

And under the wrong president, might be turned on non-compliant citizens.

Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Couple of small corrections:
It was actually the National Firearms Act of 1934 (not 1935) that TAXED (not disallowed) the ownership of fully automatic firearms. That “machine guns are banned” meme is just another urban legend, like crocodiles in the sewer and wearing red scarves to treat a sore throat. If full autos are not allowed then how can all those owners show up at Big Sandy each year with their PAK 75s, 20mm Vulcan cannons, and quad .50s? Not to even mention all the ‘little’ stuff, like old Ma Deuce on the front page! 🙂
http://mgshooters.com/

Last edited 10 months ago by Knute
warfinge
warfinge
10 months ago
Reply to  Knute

Good point. The state loves for us to thing “machine guns” are illegal. They are not.

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

musicman44mag . . .
With due respect to you, the Second Amendment makes NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN “full auto”, semi auto, single shot, etc.; ad infinitum!!! The United States Federal Govt. and all of its subsets (state govt., city govt; etc.) have RAPED the Second Amendment ENOUGH! TIME TO PUT A STOP TO IT!!! TIME TO PUT A STOP TO THE COMMUNISTS, TOO, SINCE THE “POLITICAL PROCESS” DOES NOT SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DO SO!!! ARM UP! GET READY!

warfinge
warfinge
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

It’s a nibble at a time. We lose something with each nibble that we will never get back. It isn’t “what” the nibble is, it’s just a little closer to the overall goal.

Brandon_c
Brandon_c
10 months ago

Why did you guys delete the most recent letter you got with FOIA?? That’s so shady.

Bob
Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Brandon_c

Same thought here, I think it adds valuable information.

Last edited 10 months ago by Bob
Bob
Bob
10 months ago

“Despite rumors, there is no known official change to ATF policy as it relates to the legality of pistol braces.”

The irony here is the people I see spreading those rumors are linking to this article. Hopefully people actually read the article.

Mr.Caverns
Mr.Caverns
10 months ago

All the owners should start a petition for a lawsuit against the ATF regarding the reclassification. This might pressure them to change their minds again. ‍♂️

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  Mr.Caverns

You mean register your pistols?

Nilsigne
Nilsigne
10 months ago

Could you do an article of current atf “approved” braces? I’m hoping this gets resolved and I can keep using sba3 brace but for going to range I’d like have something that is at least currently legal.

Bob
Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Nilsigne

The only SB Tactical braces that are actually “approved” appear to be the two mentioned in the letter, which are the original braces for the MPX and AR15.

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

All braces were “approved” in 1791 when the 2nd Amendment was ratified.

Bob
Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Baldwin

That’s a great sentiment and I don’t disagree, but it might not hold up so well in a court.

Nilsigne
Nilsigne
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

Yah and I’d prefer not to have to go to court just for taking my rifle to the range

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

The courts are part of the swamp.

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  Baldwin

Baldwin . . . AMEN!!!!!!

Ansel Hazen
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

Maybe then we need to work a little harder at removing gun free zones. I’m thinking a lot less trampling on the 2A would occur if those in attendance had the ability to educate the judge on what “shall not be infringed” really means.

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  Ansel Hazen

Ansel . . . The most DANGEROUS PLACES IN AMERICA: GUN FREE ZONES!!!

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  Ansel Hazen

Ansel . . . Followed close on by ANY political unit with Communist Democraps in charge!!!

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

Bob . . . Well, “Court” is at the root of the problem!!!

grant
grant
10 months ago

And so it begins, the reign of terror from Joe Biden’s ‘new regime’ on gun owners.
Hope all you liberal gun-owners are happy now.

KDude
KDude
10 months ago
Reply to  grant

So, tell me what exactly is different about this, which is happening under Trumps administration too. Versus when Trump said “I’m getting rid of bump stocks on my own” and then the same ATFE just redefined “machine gun” to include a piece of plastic without a chamber, barrel, or trigger?You and 70 80 million others have been suckered. Trump is a globalist who sold out our Republic to the UN agenda, and he’s being cheered on by self described God fearing, Conservatives. I knew it from the time I watched in utter disbelief, Trump on FNC early in 2016 first… Read more »

Jeremy B.
Jeremy B.
10 months ago
Reply to  KDude

He was suckered into it, leveraged in by a horrible event in alas Vegas. It was his single 2A mistake.

Biden/Harris will take EVERYTHING they can. If you think Biden will hesitate for even half a second to sign a bill banning the most popular firearms in the US, well, you don’t know his history. He authored the previous “Assault Weapon” ban.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy B.

You make it sound like he had no free will. He wasn’t “suckered into it” – he willingly made the decision to be more popular, because he is a populist. He has no foundation of principles as it relates to the 2nd Amendment. In his book, he indicated he was in favor of longer waiting periods and banning “assault weapons.” When he was running for president in 2016, he knew he needed the votes of the firearm community. Just before the election he said he was going to create a “2nd Amendment Coalition” and put his son at the head… Read more »

Last edited 10 months ago by JSNMGC
RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

When it came to doing something concerning firearms which would have been proactively positive he was “All hat and no cattle.”

Liberty1986
Liberty1986
10 months ago
Reply to  grant

“The reign of Bidens new regime begins!”

Actually no, Trump is still the president. This is happening under president Trump, and has been happening under Trump for the entire past 4 years. Maybe if Trump actually kept his promises to defend the 2nd Amendment he wouldn’t have lost the election

nobodyuknow
nobodyuknow
10 months ago
Reply to  grant

grant . . . Liberal gun owners? Might be a FEW!

Finnky
Finnky
10 months ago
Reply to  nobodyuknow

You don’t think all five million new gun owners this year are conservatives do you?

Having made choice to take at least one step toward self reliance and independence, hopefully they will all become more conservative before next election.

Hebidono
Hebidono
10 months ago

I love this country with my heart and soul. This I will never allow to come into question. What I hate, from the depths of my core, is how spineless we are collectively. STOP COMPLYING DAMN IT! All of these infringements are entirely our fault. We allowed it! We put our noses to the ground and we accept whatever ridiculous extortion scheme they provide as an offering. We jump through whatever hoops they hold up and then we tell ourselves that this makes us ‘good law-abiding citizens’! All the while knowing that this just makes us chumps! We claim that… Read more »

Bob
Bob
10 months ago

This article has been pretty heavily edited from its original version. Why was the following removed? AmmoLand News used the popular Wayback Machine to verify the claim by SB Tactical that SB did not market the brace as “ATF Compliant” or “ATF Approved Technology,” It appears that SB Tactical removed any references to pistol braces’ legality between March and April of this year, 2020. ” “Our products are designed and intended only for use as forearm braces to provide a more stable firearm platform. They are neither designed nor intended to be fired from the shoulder. As configuration changes may… Read more »

Last edited 10 months ago by Bob
JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

If the government got out of the business of trying to differentiate a pistol from a rifle, none of this would matter.

Remove SBRs from the purview of the NFA of 1934.

Arrest, convict, and imprison bad people (people guilty of murder, non-negligent homicide, rape, armed robbery, etc.). Give them meaningful sentences and be extraordinarily hesitant to grant early release (parole, commutation of sentence, etc.).

Why don’t we try these things?

Last edited 10 months ago by JSNMGC
Dee
Dee
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I’m in agreement as long as sentences are not racially exclusive! And the police responds to ALL threats equally. I support 2A but until our prisons look like our nation then what else can the government do? Until the right support at least 58% whites, 16% Hispanics, 15% blacks, 11% other in our prison system, then we gonna have a problem with Our guns. Or get rid of the common prison system and get something that works better but then my guns could be in question by the government. People certain demographics wants equal treatment under the law and I… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Equal enforcement of the law.

The percentage of each race in prisons should be representative of the percent each race commits crime, not of the overall population.

Dee
Dee
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

We know the “Good ol boi system” doesn’t desire that truth!! Ask the guy running for Governor of VA as a Republican!!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Hmmm. . . less than 10% of the murders in the Englewood and Garfield Park neighborhoods of Chicago even result in an arrest (much less a conviction and meaningful sentence). I don’t think people from Winnetka are driving down there and doing drive-bys and killing innocent 3 year-old girls, do you?

Last edited 10 months ago by JSNMGC
Dee
Dee
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

BS…the police drive through all the time. Lots of police are criminals. The best their wives. They lie. They cheat. The walk around with a certain amount of immunity. Well that’s gonna change! They have no more or less rights than anyone. If they commit a crime, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law!! Period. On the job or not!! I’m 100% onboard with police reform!!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Not sure I understand your point. I agree with you that an unacceptably high percentage of police lie, cheat, and get away with certain crimes and they should have no more rights than anyone else.

That doesn’t change the fact that most of the murders in the Englewood and Garfield Park neighborhoods of Chicago are committed by Blacks and a very low percentage of these criminals are even arrested much less convicted and given a meaningful sentence.

Dave in Fairfax
Dave in Fairfax
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee,
OK, what’s your beef With Rutledge, and I mean specifics.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Exactly. What Dee wrote sounds like a democrat way of thinking to me.

Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

“What Dee wrote sounds like a democrat way of NON-thinking to me.”
Fixed it for you, musicman! 🙂

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
10 months ago
Reply to  Knute

I gave you the thumbs up. Got me on that one. LOL

Knute
Knute
10 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

🙂

Dave in Fairfax
Dave in Fairfax
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee,

If 15% of the population commits 50% of the crimes, why should 58% of the population have to be jailed just to ensure equal representation in jail? Is that really what you are advocating?

Dee
Dee
10 months ago

Fake news!!! We know 58% percent of the population are better protected under the “good ole boi system”. I’m just advocating ALL people be treated equally. Certain people in this country are looked at differently by our government. So if you are against this then you are essentially against guns!! Because our judicial system WILL change. It a lot easier to add to those changes if you’re on the right side of history.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

I agree with you that all people should be treated equally, irrespective of their race, whether they are a LEO, whether they are a politician, whether they are wealthy, etc.

The fact is, a very low percentage of Blacks who commit murder and non-negligent homicide are even arrested, much less convicted and required to serve a meaningful sentence.

Dave in Fairfax
Dave in Fairfax
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee,
Yelling Fake News doesn’t make it so. The majority of the crime, especially murder, is Black on Black and gang warfare. Despite that more Whites are killed by cops than Blacks, you just don’t see rioting in the streets when it happens. I’ve heard, but never seen, the Good Ole’ Boy system. I’ve never heard of the good ole boi system, it must be some sort of woke thing. I don’t see how being against an absurd jailing rate system compares to being anti-gun. Your logic escapes me.

Last edited 10 months ago by Dave in Fairfax
musicman44mag
musicman44mag
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

I have lived in neighborhoods where there were less blacks than whites. All three of my homes were robbed through the years. Everyone was caught, everyone was black. Black kids are the only ones where if I had to fight, I fought 20 blacks for the issue I had with one and the only people that used to rob me every day on a daily basis for my lunch money were blacks. They stole the school bus from a school that was 90 percent blacks, came over to the school that had a barely more white than black ratio and… Read more »

Don
Don
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee, you are not a deep thinker.

RoyD
RoyD
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee, you aren’t very smart are you? Fortunately, unless you have genetic factors preventing it, you can cure that. Otherwise you will go through life knowing that most people consider you to be, not very smart. That is all up to you.

Dee
Dee
10 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

But that didn’t stop Trump from becoming President. Lol

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Throwing the race card, throwing the Trump card…both pitifully weak arguments for failing to do your research.

Don
Don
10 months ago
Reply to  Dee

That is stupid to the max. Blacks are in prison for being bad guys. If the prisons were full with black guys, it’s because they commit more crimes.

Bob
Bob
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

You also removed the “Firearms Technology Criminal Branch Report of Technical Examination of Unknown Shotgun with SB tactical SBA3 Brace September 15, 2020”, and the comment that: According to the Agency, in September of 2020, ATF’s technology branch issued a “Report of Technical Examination” on an unknown (redacted) shotgun model that had been submitted for classification with an SBA3 brace attached. In determining the submission to be a short-barreled shotgun, the report notes that the SBA3 “has been previously and repetitively determined to be a shouldering device, not a ‘stabilizing brace.’” The ATF report claims that, since the July 2018… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

Remove SBSs from the purview of the NFA of 1934.

I couldn’t care less if someone shoots from the shoulder or in any other way.

I only care about bad people doing bad things.

F Riehl, Editor in Chief
Admin
10 months ago
Reply to  Bob

Yes, we removed that line as it related to a product determination letter not having anything to do with SB Tactical (just another mfg using their brace parts) which made the post confusing to folks as you are point out.

Bob
Bob
10 months ago

That letter had comments from the ATF stating that the SBA3 was considered a shouldering device rather than a stabilizing device. It also seemed to intimate that such information had been sent before. That certainly seems relevant to the overall story.

Red
Red
10 months ago

I am EXTREMELY Mad at the way the BATFE is Handling this Situation because they are MAKING it a POLITICAL Issue not a Public Safety ONE! I am a Disabled Veteran with Severe Nerve damage and I use the Braces for what they are Designed for: To Assist with the Shooting of a Rifle Caliber Weapon but some people have used it to BEND the NFA Law concerning SBR and SBS which is an UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW to BEGIN WITH! I think it is time for ONCE and FOR ALL the US SUPREME COURT to Take Up a Second Amendment Case… Read more »

YourTruth
YourTruth
10 months ago
Reply to  Red

+1

Brandon_c
Brandon_c
10 months ago

So let me get this straight…

SBT is aware in february of 2019 that their “braces” are stocks in the eyes of ATF, and they continue to sell them as “braces” misleading both their customers and business partners like palmetto and the likes??

I bought one of their SBA3s and I am beyond upset. How is this not fraud??? They owe every single one of their customers a full refund.

Baldwin
Baldwin
10 months ago
Reply to  Brandon_c

SBT is to blame? Random acts of NFA/ATF bureaucratic tyranny is the problem. And federal appeals courts and SCOTUS are sleeping on the job.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  Brandon_c

If only someone had nominated a BATFE Director that wasn’t anti 2nd Amendment and, therefore, the Senate could have approved that person, then the BATFE wouldn’t be aggressively moving to make felons out of good people. Perhaps they would, instead, be working hard to prosecute bad people. If there are not enough federal cases to prosecute (for doing bad things), then they could go back to the office and expedite the applications for suppressors and whatnot.

Crazy ideas, huh?

Ansel Hazen
10 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Outlandish and shocking even. 🙂

archmark
archmark
10 months ago
Reply to  Brandon_c

Hey Brandon, you bought the brace thinking that you’d get around the SBR rules and snickered every time you “shouldered” it at the range. You’re supposedly a “Big Boy” by being trusted with a firearm so take responsibility for your intentional deceptive purchase. You’ve got two choices now, send it ti m,ATF for destruction or get out the Sawz-All yourself. Either way, NO COMPENSATION FOR YOU, JUST LIKE WITH YOUR BUMPSTOCK!!!

bwilson
bwilson
10 months ago
Reply to  archmark

Found the bootlicker.

Finnky
Finnky
10 months ago
Reply to  archmark

– laws are supposed to be for a reason – not to inconvenience citizens.
I imagine you are the type who claims someone driving the speed limit is getting around the laws as well? I personally rarely snicker, particularly when shooting. When I laugh at the range it isn’t most likely.due to a joke from someone. Could be partially.due to the sheer joy of shooting, though it’s more likely to be a guffaw than a snicker.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
10 months ago
Reply to  archmark

archmark,

What’s your deal? Really, what is your point? You sound ecstatic that someone, who has done nothing wrong, is going to suffer some type of loss due to the runaway Administrative State.

Would you feel better if Brandon paid $200 and waited six months for a government employee to give him permission?

Why would you want unelected government employees to have so much power?

Why do you find so much joy in some random guy getting caught up in unnecessary regulations?

Nilsigne
Nilsigne
10 months ago

well crap… my home defense rifle is a 10.5 with an SBA3. I also have a 16 inch but I’m 5’3 and 16 is really long for me…

warhorse_03826
warhorse_03826
10 months ago
Reply to  Nilsigne

so use it. better judged by 12 than carried by 6. find out if they’re legal to own if they’re not actually on the gun. if so get a cheapo airsoft gun and set it up to use the pistol brace. if you ever have to use the actual gun first thing you do is take off the brace and throw it. when asked, it’s for the airsoft gun, and definitely wasn’t on the real gun at the time of the shooting.

be sure to take multiple pictures of the real gun with no brace to back up this story.