It Is Time for Malls to Abandon ‘No Firearms’ Policies

How "Safe" Are You? The House of Cards That is Gun Free Zones, iStock-490657417
It Is Time for Malls to Abandon ‘No Firearms’ Policies, iStock-490657417

U.S.A.-(AmmoLand.com)- In the aftermath of the Greenwood Park Mall shooting in which a legally-armed private citizen named Elisjsha Dicken was able to quickly take down the killer, stopping the attack and preventing further bloodshed, it is time for shopping malls to abandon their “no firearms” policies, which have left other victims around the country disarmed and dead.

Firing across the mall food court and gradually moving closer to the heavily-armed killer, the 22-year-old Dicken hit the attacker with eight out of ten rounds fired.

Reportedly shopping with his girlfriend at the mall, Dicken was carrying under the state’s newly-enacted “Constitutional Carry” statute, which no longer requires a permit. His quick action dramatically affirmed the benefit of having armed citizens in public places.

Downplaying the significance of armed common defense in this case, the New York Times felt compelled to report—while lauding Dicken’s “act of pluck and composure worthy of a scene in the movies”—that the action “was also a statistical unicorn.”

“An examination of 433 active shooter attacks in the United States between 2000 and 2021,” the Times reported, “showed that only 22 ended with a bystander shooting an attacker, according to data from the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University.”

So what? Last year, the FBI noted six incidents in which armed citizens intervened in mass shootings, including four where the perpetrator was killed. For years, gun prohibitionists have argued in support of every new proposed gun restriction, “If it saves just one life, isn’t that worth it?”

Now that shoe is on the other foot. Dicken’s armed presence inside the Greenwood Park mall—in violation of the mall’s “no weapons” policy—probably saved several lives, according to local officials.

“Many more people would have died last night if not for the responsible armed citizen,” said Greenwood Police Chief James Ison during a press conference on the day after the shooting.

It’s not the first time a mass shooting has been abruptly halted by a proverbial “good guy with a gun.” Earlier this year in Charleston, W.Va., would-be killer Dennis Butler was quickly shot dead by a legally-armed woman after he opened fire on a crowd attending a party outside an apartment complex.

In February 2007, a murderer identified as Sulejman Talovic killed five people at the Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City before Kenneth Hammond, an off-duty police officer from another jurisdiction—arguably making him just another armed citizen—drew and fired. Talovic eventually was killed by Salt Lake lawmen, but Hammond’s actions may have prevented further carnage.

Almost three years ago, The Hill reported, “America’s largest retailers are rethinking their gun policies following a spate of mass shootings this summer in states including California, Texas and Ohio.”

Those retailers ignored the one gaping “loophole” in their decision-making process: Violent madmen do not abide by “no weapons” policies. Instead, wanton killers exploit such rules because they do not expect to meet any resistance in what amounts to a target-rich environment.

Elisjsha Dicken’s armed heroics changed that, and by now should have signaled retailers that it is time for a corporate change of heart.

Nobody wants to be a sitting duck in a maniac’s shooting gallery.


About Alan Gottlieb

Alan Gottlieb is founder and Executive Vice President of the Second Amendment Foundation. Dave Workman is editor of TheGunMag.com and Liberty Park Press.

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Ledesma

Fun Fact: History’s most famous gun free zone was established by liberals at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

Ed

We don’t need no stinkin signs…

Rowboat

When’s the last time you heard about a mass shooting at an airport ? Why ? Massive armed presence ON PREMISES of police,not to mention that of TSA ( unarmed but metal detectors) . Compare that to our school system where MAYBE an one armed School Resource Officer is present, or a shopping mall where unarmed Security Officer Paul Blart is the deterrent. Good luck with that !

JSNMGC

Yeah! If only we could hire more and more armed government employees with arrest powers such that every single school could have a sufficient number of armed officers wearing body armor to isolate, distract, and neutralize the subject within three minutes, our problems would be solved! https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-official-uvalde-classroom-door-unlocked-shooting-officers-waited-keys Each school district could hire their own police force! We could have armed government agents walking around everywhere with there thumbs in their body armor thanking each other for their service. We could give them big pensions! We could declare a national holiday for them and have everyone stand up in church and… Read more »

Rowboat

How about a sign that says “ armed personnel and citizens on premises “ ? THEN maybe they will let you have a gun , Paul ! ( and a blue light on your Segway )

JSNMGC

How about 375 armed donut munchers holding back parents who frantically wanted to save their children?

You have me confused with someone else.

[W3]

How about you – – since you seem to have all the answers – – going to one of these schools, malls, churches, or civic clubs and – – volunteering your services as a security expert. I’m guessing that any of those people would greet you with open arms, and.be happy to pay you handsomely.
[W3]

Russn8r

Sure thing, Officer. A downs syndrome victim would do a better job than you fools did.

Uvalde swat clowns dial 911 & die.png
Terry

Maybe we could assign them a name like Schutzstaffel and an emblem like – I don’t know – an SS on their collars. Some nifty jackboots would look good too. We’ve got them everywhere already. Brought to you courtesy of the war on drugs. See also “A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State”. Some people just cannot be made to understand.

JSNMGC

I’ll say.

Armed government employees fail massively and then armed government employees want tax payers to pay for more armed government employees.

Meanwhile, armed government employees lobby for more gun control, armed government employees ensure they are exempt from the gun control laws they lobby for and then armed government employees selectively enforce gun control laws against people they don’t like (and people they are ordered to enforce them against).

Terry

I don’t think I could add anything to what you just said. When I was a young lad, the small Arkansas town I lived in had one cop and a part time constable. They dressed like Andy of Mayberry, broke up the Saturday night drag races, confiscated our six pack, and threatened to call our dads if we didn’t hall ass back home. I went touring the world (courtesy of Uncle Sugar) and ended up back there (about 20 years later) in the early 90s. Now the same little town (+ about 10%) has 6 full time cops plus a… Read more »

Rowboat

Are you guys ( maybe) from the “Defund The Police “ movement ?

Russn8r

Are you from the “Back The Blue Whatever They Do” bowel movement?

Uvalde swat clowns dial 911 & die.png
Terry

No sir – I’m from the how in the hell did a town of less than 2000 people go from Mayberry to Leavenworth Movement.

Wild Bill

Yes, it is funny how the PDs, generally, are getting bigger and bigger budgets, and are less and less effective.
Apparently the mission to protect society has changed to protecting the city, county, state or federal government.
The democrats must have changed another definition while we were not paying attention.

Rowboat

We’ll, you’ve finally come out of the closet , Bill and exposed yourself as a radical anti police progressive !! What got you this way ? Too many parking tickets ? A DUI or two ? You’re , I Presume are an old Geezer like me. The difference is , I spent 28 years in the Justice System as a Park Ranger, Police officer and a Judge . I have seen the good , Bad and evil . Yes, we had , and still do , some bad apples that we eventually weed out . But if you promote the… Read more »

Ope

Rowboat,you have Bill figured completely wrong based on one comment. Bill is about pro- LE and 2A as a person can get. As a matter of fact he was himself in LE for many years.
His comment is a little confusing to me also and hopefully he will be online soon to respond. Thank you.

Wild Bill

Thank you sir. I hope that my response above will be helpful.

Rowboat

Thanks for the clarification, Ope.
As a long time reader and supporter of Ammoland I was taken aback and dismayed at Bill’s comment , which I apparently misinterpreted.
I must agree that policing has seemed to have changed and become more political then in my day. I don’t think that I could be a police officer nowadays unless I had a lawyer riding shotgun with me in the squad.

Wild Bill

None of that. Never had a parking or traffic ticket or any civilian police contacts. Nor do I hate cops.
I merely observe that PD budgets are getting bigger and bigger, while PDs are getting less and less effective.
I note with interest that Seattle PD stood by while rioters terrorized motorists because the PD was ordered to by the mayor. I must conclude that their mission must have changed.
Nor do I extrapolate that one PD to all PDs around the country.

Terry

The Police are just people – some good some bad. I’m in no way against law enforcement. I am, however, adamantly opposed to federal intervention in local affairs – be it law enforcement or anything else. The feds have never touched anything they didn’t manage to screw up.
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Wild Bill

Both of those positions are classically American!

john

Why I love concealed carry

3l120

I live a bit north of Tucson and occasionally dine at a restaurant called Craft Republic. Good beer and food. However, they have a “No Guns Allowed” sign on the door, which I ignore. Every time I go there, I ask the server if trouble occurs if she is going to stand between me and a bullet. Most think it is funny until I explain about the sign. None have said,”Yes”, as of yet.

Cruiser

These are not “Gun Free Zones”, they are free fire zones.
Just like the “Drug Free School zones.” How many kids are on prescription drugs adminstered by the schools themselves?
This could be a contributing factor for the school shoters we have today.

Last edited 14 days ago by Cruiser
Tionico

I call them”Certified Defenseless Victim Zones”. And I refuse to participate. Nearly every mall type incident that had signs similar to the one pictured above are not true “gun freee zones” either by law or reality. The FACT that dirtbags can and do enter these in spite of the signs is proof enough. But each state has speific requirements as to type, size, wording, graphics, and posititioning of such signs. Almost none of them DO comply. Look up “Clackamas Towne Centre Mall Shooting”. I’ve been there, seen the circled glock cartoons and ignore them as I KNOW they are not… Read more »

DIYinSTL

The dismissal of the event as a “unicorn” is meaningless unless the number of on the spot interventions by law enforcement can be cited and are comparatively large in number.

Tionico

whcih we all KNOW can never be the case.

JayWPB

I built my home and my business without one cent of government assistance and without any tax breaks. I believe that I have the right and the freedom to invite or ban anyone from my own private property. As long as there are no tax dollars involved, I see no problem with certain businesses telling me that they don’t want my money. Essential services, government buildings and services, and any business that is given any tax break should be required to admit all legal residents. If the mall was given “incentives” upon construction, then it should be treated as a… Read more »

Tionico

check out the Americans with Disabilities Act and their definitions of “public access places”. I am a firm believer that any facility that wualifies as “public access” MUST allow armed citizens to be armed in those places. If the blue wheelchair/handicapped parking signs are there, I must be allowed to bring in my personal protective device. I could even claim a mental exclusion to the “no guns” request as I get hyper and worked up when I am in public places and must be there disarmed. I believe I am at VERY high risk in such places, and having my… Read more »

uncle dudley

Every time I see a sign that is posted about no guns it makes me think what a Chicken Little the person who made this policy.
All they want is your money and could care less about you or your safety, how stupid are they to think a criminal is going to follow their rule.
We have too many fools trying to tell us how to live.

JSNMGC

Including the people who put those signs up at sheriff offices, police stations, military bases, visitor centers at national parks, etc. – those people?

BillyBobTexas

There are many many fools in this world, and anyone who reads and obeys a sign like that is one of those fools. Do what you have to do to keep your self and your family safe

Ope

Absolutely,in TEXAS,me and the people I hang out with totally disregard that nonsense. But you can always count on fools to do and say foolish things.

JSNMGC

Do you believe the employees at Robb Elementary School were/are fools?

What do you think of the armed government employees of various law enforcement organzations who would have ruined (or ended) their lives for carrying prior to the murders?

Trussman

I agree 100% with the headline of this story and would like it to be expanded to read, “Time to do away with Gun Free Zones” Eli’s attorney has made public a copy of his lifetime Indiana License To Carry Handgun permit, issued 8/4/2021, with address and license number redacted. Posted on Twitter account on 7/21/2022 at 12:36pm @guyrelford. This is technically irrelevant, since Indiana adopted constitutional carry on July 1st of this year, but we don’t want to be like the other side and be accused of pushing a narrative, by not being transparent. Also, as I understand it,… Read more »

Wass

Even better than an armed citizen needing to fire at a violent incident is the countless violent incidents thwarted, without need to fire, by an armed citizen. I’m waiting for gun publications to rate various firearms on their “intimidation value”.

nrringlee

We carry in to banks here in Arizona. I don’t get the idea of disarming law abiding citizens and making them open targets. Speaking of targets, I supervise shooting quals for a few ‘security’ companies out here. Take my word for it. You need to be packing.

Wild Bill

These are not “No Firearms” policies. They are soft target policies.

Mac

Thugs don’t listen so who are they afraid of? Anyone know?

JH1961

‘No Weapons Allowed’ signs help me decide where to spend my $$$.

Rob J

“No Firearms Allowed” signs that carry the force of law should only be allowed at places that take direct responsibility for ensuring your safety. They should have metal detection devices at all entrances and exits as well as law enforcement presence in such numbers as to present themselves as “hard target” areas. Here in WA state there are few areas expressly defined by law where you can not legally carry a firearm, and the majority of those are as outlined above. IMHO, any area that assumes responsibility for an individuals safety must also be held legally and civilly liable for… Read more »

HLB

Otherwise, your safety is entirely your own responsibility.”.

My safety has been, and is always, without exception, my own responsibility. I extend this to my family, even if they are in protected areas, such as schools with hundreds of LEO’s available to stop a mass killing.

This will never change. I say that it will never change. I back that up with the 2nd Amendment. Any person who tries to change it will suffer my wrath. If you can not understand the language I am writing in I will be happy to translate to your language.

HLB

Tionico

I live here too, and have observed over the years that the ONLY places where the government compliant signage is CORRECTLY displayed are the courthouses, etc that are detailed in law as prohibited places. Those places alsoprovide secure firearms storage for those needing to do business inside that are not qualified bo be inside whilst armed. ALL of the malls, stores, banks, shops, offices, etc with the usual signs that we all know are NOT compliant can be ignored. And are.

Russn8r

No Alan, it’s time for states to preempt them, for the same reason they ban cafes from serving rancid grease & rat poo. I would expect a guy who abused SAF funds to save his “good friend” Grover Norquist from being recalled off the NRA board to come up with this voluntary LOLibertarian on-your-knees pleading angle.

Last edited 15 days ago by Russn8r
MICHAELANGELO

SUPER DUMMY!!!

Tionico

Yes, it IS time for the states to preempt. I’d say the places that can lawfully post the ADA wheelchair parking signs must also be required to alllow private citizens to carry their lawfully possessed weapons inside. Bear in mind, anyone carrying any weapon into such a place with the intent to do harm with that weapon is NOT lawfully in possession of their weapon. Until there are TSA style checks at every public entrance, anyone must be allowed to have their own, lawfully, inside the place.

Wild Bill

Respectfully, preemption is the wrong tool. Preemption is the higher government against the lower government (e.g. Federal gov. preempts state law or State law preempts a county or city ordinance.)
The proper tool, in this case, is just an act of the state legislature.

Russn8r

The proper tool, in this case, is just an act of the state legislature.”

Respectfully, WHAT IN GOD’S NAME ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

State preemption IS an ACT of the state legislature, also known as a LAW.

A number of states have ACTED to pass LAWS to PREEMPT gun control at the local level. It’s exactly what’s needed here.

Wild Bill

Preemption statutes are higher government preventing lower government action. Preemption is not higher government preventing private business from some action.

Russn8r

Samey same.

swmft

biggest preemption rule is second amendment and it is ignored

Russn8r

“Libertarians” say RKBA & self-defense do not apply to “private” firms open to the public like El Cielo Mall in El Paso, and that it would be “wrong” to impose it for public safety, though it’s fine to prohibit serving rancid grease & rat poo for public safety.

Anyhow, we should not focus strictly on narrow context legal definitions. For example, “treason” has valid widely known meanings that predate our legal definition by centuries.

Similarly, “preempt” has logical, widely known meaning that logically would apply to banning “private” firms from decreeing their own “gun free” zones.

Wild Bill

If we are going to talk law, then we must understand and properly use the language of the law, lest our elitist overlords dismiss us as mere uneducated rabble.

Green Mtn. Boy

End gun free shooting gallery’s Now.

Ope

Just malls and a couple hundred other places I can think of. In TEXAS that ““no gun zone” bullshit is basically ignored. Nobody dictates to us where we can and can not defends ourselves from criminal turds intent on killing.

Wild Bill

Ft Hood is federal not state jurisdiction.

JSNMGC

You statement is correct, but it is irrelevant to what “Ope” stated and my response to his statement. “Ope” stated: “In TEXAS that ““no gun zone” bullshit is basically ignored. Nobody dictates to us where we can and can not defends ourselves from criminal turds intent on killing.” Ft. Hood is in TEXAS. The U.S. Army dictates who can carry at Ft. Hood. Regarding the other example I mentioned, government employees dictated that school employees (at that particular school in TEXAS) could not carry firearms while in the school. Instead, the Uvalde residents put their faith (and money) in dedicated… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

The relevant part is that Ft. Hood is federal property and exclusive federal jurisdiction. It may not even be part of Texas, but I would have to look that up.

JSNMGC

It’s in TEXAS and the people in charge dictate who is allowed to carry a firearm.

Here’s the address:

Fort Hood
Bldg. 36000, Darnall Loop
2nd Floor
Killeen, TX 76544

Ask Pat if unauthorized personnel are allowed to carry:

https://home.army.mil/hood/index.php/about/fort-hood-leadership

Wild Bill

Unauthorized people are not allowed to carry because Ft Hood is a federal jurisdiction and the Commander says so.
It issue has nothing to do with Ft Hood being inside the state of Texas.

JSNMGC

It is in Texas.

The people there dictate who is authorized to have a firearm.

Pat says so, just like the owner of the mall says so.

Tionico

READ your Constitution. It will prove you wrong, which is why you most likely will not read it.

JSNMGC

YDOMF

Wild Bill

Oh Tio, you have gone and done slapped the tar baby!

JSNMGC

There you go again.

Maybe Tionico will come back and explain what I was wrong about.

Wild Bill

YDOMF is not a word.

JSNMGC

It’s a “civilian” acronym. You wouldn’t understand.

Wild Bill

I think that YDOMF is your acronym that no one but you understands. Keeping it secret allows you to make a response for which you can not be called out.

Ope

Bill,Tio does have the boy pegged don’t he ?

Wild Bill

Yes, Tio is quite correct.

Tionico

READ your copyof the US Constitution. FedGof are allowed to OWN certain types of property, and on that list of allowed are military forts and installations. Thus FedGov can, and does, manage possession of arms on their properties.
I personally think they’re nuts in so badly mistrusting their military personnel as to keep them disarmed almost everywhere. There are not enough MP’s to guard every square foot of those YUUUUUUGE forts. But since they are in charge, they can, and do, do stupid things

JSNMGC

READ. I DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY OF WHAT YOU WROTE. DOES CAPS MAKE THIS MORE CONVINCING?

JSNMGC

If Uvalde teachers were allowed to carry guns, TEXAS law enforcement would have had a hard time convincing the “civilians” that the Uvalde school district needed its own, highly trained, professional police force. You know, to keep the children safe.

https://crimeresearch.org/2022/05/another-school-shooting-in-a-place-where-teachers-and-staff-were-banned-from-carrying-guns-robb-elementary-school-in-the-uvalde-texas-cisd/

JSNMGC

Went on hold, let me try the RWA.

If Uvalde teachers were allowed to carry guns, TEXAS law enforcement would have had a hard time convincing the “civilians” that the Uvalde school district needed its own, highly trained, professional police force. You know, to keep the children safe.

https://crimeresearch.org/2022/05/another-school-shooting-in-a-place-where-teachers-and-staff-were-banned-from-carrying-guns-robb-elementary-school-in-the-uvalde-texas-cisd/

Last edited 15 days ago by JSNMGC
Russn8r

Can you spot TEX?

“TEXAS: Like a whole other country !”

Uvalde swat clowns dial 911 & die.png
MICHAELANGELO

Go take your medication!!

Tionico

plus twelve, at least

JSNMGC

For posterity, my comments were in response to this post by Ope (Will/TEX/et al.):

“Just malls and a couple hundred other places I can think of. In TEXAS that ““no gun zone” bullshit is basically ignored. Nobody dictates to us where we can and can not defends ourselves from criminal turds intent on killing.” ~ Ope (Will/TEX/et al.)

Russn8r

BS. If “gun free” zones are “basically ignored” in TEXAS, ~50 innocents would still be alive in El Paso & Uvalde.

MICHAELANGELO

Nobody likes you DUMMY!!

Russn8r

Did Wayne let you up for air? Take a breath, Mikey!

Michaelangelo is still gay.png
Tionico

speak for yourself.

Russn8r

Thanks, T.

Tionico

True enough. ANYONE at that WalMart that day COULD have been legally armed. They ALL chose not to be. In our local WalMarts, despite the no guns cartoons, everyone I know carries inside. No one cares. I can remember TWO incidents where armed citizens shopping at our local WalMarts were indeed armed inside, and were able, when it was “go time” to save lives. Two dead perps may have been surprised, but that did not last long. I wonder if they were cursing the locals who WERE armed when the perps thought no one would be….. let their curse beupon… Read more »

Jonesy

I believe that started in Killeen Tx. shortly after a restaurant was shot up.
An eye witness appeared before Congress to start the ball rolling. Young Lady, I believe.

Tionico

Yes, She became conrgresswoman from that district. Luby’s Cafe was the venue. She had to watch per parents die fromthe gunman’s bullets, and was the more furious because HEr carry gun was out in the car park, locked in the glove box of her car, because of the Texas law prohibiting civilian arms inside restaurants. SHE nearly singlehandedly got that policy and law changed. Can’t quite dredge up her name from the nether regions of my cranium… used to know it. You can learn the whole story by searching out Luby’s Cafe Massacre.. Stupid laws cost many lives. “Its for… Read more »