WASHINGTON, D.C. –-(Ammoland.com)- The industry and the public have been anxiously awaiting the new Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) rule on unfinished frames and receivers. We now have an idea where the ATF might be in the process, thanks to emails from the ATF’s Office of Regulatory Affairs obtained by Gun Owners of America (GOA).
The wait probably will not be days or weeks, and it might even be months.
The new rules seem to have hit a snag because no one at the Bureau considered the number of unfinished frames and receivers sitting in stores’ inventory. Now the ATF will be reaching out to licensed firearms dealers (FFLs) to see how many kits are currently for sale. The ATF is asking the dealers how long it would take to serialize those kits and what the FFL’s plan to do with the kits if a rule went into effect that would require serialization.
From the letters;
Do you sell partially complete firearm kits? If yes,
a. Approximately how many kits do you currently possess in inventory?
b. If the proposed rule on the “Definition of Frame or Receiver and Identification of Firearms” were to finalize, what would you do with these kits?
c. How long do you estimate it would take to serialize a partially complete firearms kit in your current inventory?
It seems like the ATF is trying to get a timeline as to when the earliest the new rule can go into effect without too much negative impact on dealers. FFLs could be on the hook for the cost of the kits if they could not serialize the unfinished frames and receivers if the new rule takes effect. The ATF is seemly trying to avoid a situation where the dealers would lose too much money. The ATF is probably not concerned for the dealers’ losses, more likely the ATF probably wants to prevent criticism and scrutiny from Congress.
Cart Before the Horse
The ATF will also be reaching out to gunsmiths to get an idea of how many privately made firearms (PMF) they take into inventory to work on for customers every year. The government agency wants to know if gunsmiths have the ability to engrave PMFs that they are hired to fix. The ATF also wants to know what the gunsmiths plan on doing if the new rule goes into effect when a customer brings in a PMF to be worked on at their shop.
From the letters;
Do you offer gunsmithing services? If yes,
a. Approximately how many privately made firearms (PMFs) do you work on, repair, or otherwise take in to work on in a given year?
b. Are you capable of engraving or marking a firearm with a serial number?
c. If not, and PMFs are required to be marked or engraved with a serial number, what would you do with future PMFs that individuals may bring in?
Dealers, gunsmiths, and other industry members will start receiving the request for information from the ATF’s Office of Regulatory Affairs anytime now. The industry members will have approximately a week to respond to the questions. It isn’t clear how many gunsmiths and dealers will receive the questions.
About John Crump
John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.
Aluminum, lead, brass and associated metals Pre Ban Sale. Blocks of aluminum, aluminum cans that can be melted down and formed into blocks of aluminum, bottle caps that can be melted down and formed into trigger groups, lead weights from auto tire shops that can be melted down and formed into bullets ALL on sale at a rate of about 12 Bit Coins. The ATF will be wanting to send out questionnaires to ALL tire shops asking them if they can serialize the new and used lead weights for tire balancing, then they will form a nation-wide task force to… Read more »
The only way they are going to be made to follow the law is when not following it is more painful then following it. And it won’t come from writing letters to CONgressmen or Senators. It will come from MAKING IT MORE PAINFUL to ignore the law…hint, hint. The making it more painful part is the REASON the Founding Fathers put the 2nd amendment into the Constitution.
How about making it more painful to enforce unconstitutional laws?
Also how gullible many patriots are, easily fooled by obvious hopium psyops like “Q”, entrapped by provocateurs like Ray Epps
I don’t really think of donut munching chimps as my nemesis. LOL
careful Not all tyre weights are lead anmore. Some staes (WA for cure andI certain California, have mandated that the lead go away. Been replaced by some sort of alloy that is a lot harder and lighter. NOT suiteble for making small round things that can be propelled from a tube. You are correct.. this is a rampant “I’m in charge so I can/will do what I want” rage. Smebody wiht clout needs to reel these clowns in. Divert the worst of them to some repote Pacific island… on a ittance of a salary. Permanent transfer. Former paychecks halted.(not like… Read more »
If the f squad actually publishes their BS and claims “PMFs are required to be marked or engraved with a serial number”, every gunsmith and ffl should engrave “FATF & FJB” on every firearm that a customer gives them permission to engrave, and not a damn thing else.
“Our ATF partners.” -NSSF
How does Ammoland feel about that partnership?
Why are so many agents & their local “partners” lurking here?
Because Joe Biden
They were here before Biden.
Because Barry Soetoro.
Right. Nothing bad ever happens under Republicans like Bush-Cheney or Trump-Pence. I was thinking wrong.
Reagan and GHW Bush screwed us over as well. Republican presidents have been enemies of gun owners for decades. We have some good congressmen that support us, but we can’t trust the presidents.
True. And yet, none of these laws can harm us if cops don’t OBEY and enforce them.
🙂
Need welders mask for the glow I want to see.
Better on thier forehead right above thier eyebrows where its visible to everybody .
@musicman44mag It should not be the prefix…
“FATF & FJB” should be the entire engraving. No further numbers or letters required. Engrave them all the same.
ATF FORM 5320-1 already addresses all of these issues of somebody were to make a 80% firearm and then want to turn around and sell it. All the ATF is doing here is just creating more of a quagmire of bureaucracy than what is necessary in trying to show cause for their existence toward earning a pension check.
The “atf / batf / batfe” have absolutely NO AUTHORITY to make “rules”/”laws” that INFRINGE on American Citizens’ RIGHTS!! This ILLEGALLY INSTITUTED — bureaucratic department MUST BE DISBANDED in its ENTIRETY and ALL of its “rules” DELETED from ALL RECORDS – ALL ACROSS PRIVATE, PUBLIC and FEDERAL RECORDS here in America and stop sharing this PRIVATE information with FOREIGN governments. This includes the ANTI-CONSTITUTIONAL gun REGISTRATION which they are now working from and are converting to a digital — searchable file!
exactly, laws are made in both houses and signed by the president. but the legislative branch has abdicated their authority to the non-accountable federal bureaucracy, so in theory, everything bureaucrats produce is unconstitutional.
And both houses and the executive abdicated their authority and duty to the courts.
Laws are made in that manner, but they cannot simply vote anything they want into law. And every “law” they created that restricts firearm ownership, types of ams, carrying, etc, are unconstitutional and entirely without legal authority. What is repugnant to the Constitution has no legal hold over citizens, as SCOTUS has reminded the government numerous times.
This is why we need to form a coalition of second amendment advocates and retain groups such as the second amendment foundation and the governor of America to finally begin the lawsuit against the United States government to abolish such agencies. That means everybody in the second amendment arena is going to have to step outside of their comfort zone and actually sacrifice something for freedom and liberty until the job is completed. Who’s with me?
Okay something with this autocorrect bullshit is happening again
That is ok. We know that you mean Gun Owners of America.
So… f squad apparently are going to try to claim they have authority to demand all blocks of metal be serialized and that background checks are needed to buy a block of metal or plastic. Fatf. Unconstitutional bs Americans won’t comply with. According to their proposal nerf guns are firearms as they can be used as receivers with enough work and mods. Good luck enforcing it, doing backgound checks for every nerf gun! But of course they will only attempt to enforce the parts that suit them.
So…
…you have an unserialised, original condition, historical firearm which is worth a great deal & needs som minor work by a gunsmith.
What the ATF is proposing is the destruction of that originality by mandating the application of a serial number, damaging both the finish & the looks of said firearm.
What a heap of dogs’ eggs.
Nothing in their proposed rule required any pre-GCA firearms to be serialized or damaged as you referenced.
how many beautiful antiques did brits and aussies destroy in name of safety ,and look how well their governments treat them slaves all
Why would a PMF builder need to take their PMF to a gunsmith for repairs?
Must be the next thing ATF wants to deprive us of?
And their “partners” at NSSF? It’s a little odd that ATF-NSSF get promoted here.
Most home builders gun smith their own arms.
Because they will outlaw sale of parts. If only a licensed gunsmith can get parts, choice will be to go to gunsmith, fabricate yourself, or go to the black market. I’m guessing those are listed in reverse order of frequency with which they’d be used.
Where will the black marketeers get the parts.
There are many millions of parts in the hands of non-government employees.
When you were a Washington State enforcer would you have followed orders to confiscate semiautomatic rifles if there was a law banning them?
Crickets Chirping…
LOL
After he indicated he would have enforced laws requiring semiautomatic rifles to be registered, he was asked the above question.
He has been asked this question repeatedly over the last year (approximately).
He gets a lot of upvotes here.
By other donut munching chimps and their sock puppets.
Let him write. There might be something to learn.
Don’t tell me what to do.
I haven’t attempted to prevent Don from writing – just the opposite, I have encouraged him to write by asking him questions.
Nothing that could be considered encouraging. He knows that any answer will be twisted or misquoted later.
Is that what he knows, Wild Bill?
He indicated he would enforce laws requiring the registration of semiautomatic rifles. I haven’t twisted that or misquoted it.
I find it interesting to discuss just how far enforcers would go in enforcing never-ending gun control. It’s a critical piece of the equation and his view is one data point.
You are extremely defensive of enforcers who indicate their willingness to enforce unconscionable gun laws (even future laws that are worse than the ones we have today).
All the more important to let him write.
“All the more important to let him write.”
Not only am I letting him write, I am encouraging him to do so.
There is no such thing as a “black market”. That is just a propaganda term made up by the government.
Questions: Do FFLs and gunsmiths HAVE to respond to these ‘requests for information’?
If they don’t ‘have to’ and don’t does the ATF have a way to track who did and did not comply? (fear factor)
Can the public get a list of which FFLs / gunsmiths were asked and which complied?
I’m pretty sure that’s what the fifth amendment of the Constitution is all about?
It would be interesting to see how the heck they would be able to keep track of numbers. For instance, how would the FFL know what number to put on the frame? And say someone has the ability to laser in a number. So now the gun is marked but where did it begin it’s existence? It’s one thing for a manufacturer to mark a frame, because the numbers are all unique to the manufacturer. But if individuals or whoever is doing it, the only benefit will be if it gets stolen! Then someone would be able to report it!… Read more »
But but but making a mess of it all is ATF’s specialty.
In their proposed rule the serial number will be partly the FFL license # and an index number. That way if it were ever found they could go to that FFLs bound book to find the owner.
I see. Good comment.
What to put on the frame?
“FATF & FJB”
All get the same engraving.
Humorous.
You would have to apply to the ATF for a serial number specifically issued by the ATF to put on that particular item.
That is a big NO. No one will be asking the f squad for a serial number. That would be a registration, which the 1996 law outlawed, as well as others.
I hit the send button accidentally before I put in that those would trust and that are makers or manufacturers the NFA weapons would be used in the form 5320 – 1 to serialize those. As for the way America has been making our own firearms all along there’s no reason to touch it or alternate any manner. There is however reason for the people to get up off their dead butts and start moving toward the abolishing of the ATF as they are on an unnecessary entity of the federal bureaucracy that is not needed. They showed this to… Read more »
All 80’s could be marked SNBI-FJB
ZACKLEY !
Let’s go with Brand1. 😉
Start all numbers with F/U makes for shorter numbers, but to the point!!!!
Or simply begin them all with XM- and Pat.Pen.
They will keep playing games for as long as you play along.
Do you offer gunsmithing services? If yes, a. Approximately how many privately made firearms (PMFs) do you work on, repair, or otherwise take in to work on in a given year? We do not distinguish between these two “classes” of product upon wiht we work. b. Are you capable of engraving or marking a firearm with a serial number? We do not, nor are we in position to make that investment in equipment. c. If not, and PMFs are required to be marked or engraved with a serial number, what would you do with future PMFs that individuals may bring… Read more »
Each make and model or modification has to start somewhere, usually at 1 and with all of the different innovative designs available to the human mind, there could be tens of millions of them out there starting with the number one.
i forsee a run on unfinished lowers. will there be a grandfather clause included?
anyone selling 80% should have a fire sale , that a machined lower can sell for 40$ means they could sell 80s for 10-20$ flood the market before rule goes into effect get 1-2million on the street atf would be chasing their tail forever
Why run like a coward from something that’s totally legal?
Why do you think he suggests running like a coward? Non sequitur.
Do you sell partially complete firearm kits? If yes,a. Approximately how many kits do you currently possess in inventory?b. If the proposed rule on the “Definition of Frame or Receiver and Identification of Firearms” were to finalize, what would you do with these kits?c. How long do you estimate it would take to serialize a partially complete firearms kit in your current inventory?a)Don’t know do ya?b)shove them all up several ATF agents assesc) 90 years a. Approximately how many privately made firearms (PMFs) do you work on, repair, or otherwise take in to work on in a given year? b.… Read more »
From what I’ve seen, many 80% receivers are polymer. Serial number needs to be engraved in a metal plate which cannot be removed without destroying the receiver. Thus cost to properly “serialize” a PMF will often dramatically exceed cost to simply replace it – if it is even possible. If unserialized polymer receiver comes in, I will engrave number in plastic at location of the owner’s choice. “Law abiding” owners, who don’t pose any risk to society, will leave markings alone. Owners with criminal intent will take a few seconds to obliterate the serial number. Proposed rule will simply impose… Read more »
engraving a serial number into plain plastic wont cut it.
When I gunsmithed, I asked the local BATFE office what to do when I got an unserialized gun in for repair. (shotguns and .22 rifles made before the GCA of 1968 did not have to be serialized). I was told to simply write “No Serial Number” in the serial number column of my bound book.
funny how “kits” are not defined. what about AR kits that are offered with no lower receivers, never have been, are those on the block as well?
An IRS audit?
A very long list indeed!
Damn sure is.