Infringing the Time, Manner and Place to Bear Arms

How "Safe" Are You? The House of Cards That is Gun Free Zones, iStock-490657417
How “Safe” Are You? The House of Cards That is Gun Free Zones, iStock-490657417

U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)- We don’t agree on very much. That is why the rights of free speech and freedom of action are so uncomfortable, so important, and so necessary. We have to tolerate ideas we find offensive or even dangerous because there is so much we don’t know and so much we need to learn. If you doubt that our rights of free speech are infringed today then please consider how public discussion was censored on the topics of Covid lockdowns and election integrity. Rather than free speech being dangerous, we found that the most dangerous problems are the ones we’re not allowed to debate. The cure to offensive speech is more speech, not less. We face a similar problem when we consider infringements on the right to bear arms and the right of self-defense.

We have to talk about our infringed right to bear arms. Freedom isn’t comfortable, but it is the safest option we have.

We’re told we would be safer if approved citizens were the only ones allowed to exercise the right of armed defense. We’re told that we’d be safer if law-abiding people were disarmed in public. We’ve seen that taken to ridiculous extremes where honest gun owners were disarmed in public parking lots, parks, churches, and businesses. We saw criminals and mass murderers attack unarmed victims in so-called “gun free” zones. What happens to our individual right of armed defense when politicians and businesses infringe on those rights?

There are many restrictions on our rights that we submit to voluntarily. We agree to moderate our speech in concert halls, in libraries, theaters, and in comedy clubs so that others can enjoy the performance along with us. We lose our right to speak in the temporary circumstance when that right infringes on the rights of other people to listen.

Note that we’re speaking about rights rather than mere preferences. Disarming the honest good guys can have drastic consequences. Does a store owner assume extra liabilities and obligations if he disarms the law-abiding customers who want to enter his store? What happens if a city council says that the store owner must disarm all his customers? What if the city council passes a law so law-abiding citizens can’t bring their tools of armed defense into town at all? Do storekeepers and public officials assume additional liability for our safety when they prevent us from protecting ourselves and our families?

If those answers seem obvious, then consider if self-defense is a right or a privilege. If shopkeepers and city governments are allowed to discriminate based on gun ownership, could they legally demand that everyone in their store or in their town has to be a gun owner? Infringements are always done in the name of public safety.

This might sound like we have a handful of questions and are very short of answers. Our legal system has a long history of resolving the natural tension between rights and obligations. We also have some facts to guide us.

We know that honest citizens in the US use a firearm between one-and-two-million times a year to stop an immediate threat of death or great bodily harm. That is a large number, but we can put it into perspective. Honest gun owners defend themselves with a firearm about 150 times for each time a criminal uses a firearm to commit murder. Armed citizens save lives several thousand times a day.

The frequency and proportion of armed defense explain why our so-called “public safety” gun-control laws are so dangerous. The advocates for gun-control claim their gun laws make us safer, but our most dangerous and most violent cities have some of the strictest gun-control regulations. Political promises are cheap, but our 20-thousand gun control regulations haven’t stopped armed criminals. Again, looking at proportions makes it clear why gun control fails time after time.

It is really hard to pass a law that will reduce the harm that criminals do with a gun while at the same time leaving honest citizens armed so they can still defend themselves. If we disarm one-hundred criminals and only inadvertently disarm one-law-abiding gun owner, then we’ve cost more lives than we’ve saved. It is hard to write a gun control law that does no harm.

We already have laws and procedures that hold private citizens and government officials accountable when their negligence injures others. We are responsible if a guest hurts themselves on a broken step as they walk up to our front door. The city council may be liable if they refuse to test the quality of their municipal water supply and the water makes people sick.

The law has been studying human behavior for a long time. We are held liable for what actually happens rather than what we hoped would happen. We can claim that the rotten step on our front porch was part of our home’s rustic charm, but we are still responsible for the broken ankle after our guest falls through the broken step. The city council and the taxpayers are liable for the attack on disarmed victims in the city-mandated “gun-free” public parking lot. We can be criminally and civilly liable when our actions contribute to another person’s injury.

As always, laws are cheap but consequences can be costly. That is a necessary feature so that we consider our actions and fix our mistakes. If you think that sounds punitive then please read past the titles and consider what our thousands of gun-control laws really do.

Our elites already know that gun-control fails. That is why our gun-control laws seldom apply to the elites. Provisions are usually written into gun-control laws so that politicians, judges, and police officers are exempt.

Please think about that for a minute. If a law needs an exception because the law puts a politician and his family at risk, then that law is too dangerous for us and for our families too.

Freedom isn’t comfortable, but it is the safest option we have.


About Rob Morse

The original article, with sources, is posted here. Rob Morse writes about gun rights at Ammoland, at Clash Daily, at Second Call Defense, and on his SlowFacts blog. He hosts the Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast and co-hosts the Polite Society Podcast. Rob was an NRA pistol instructor and combat handgun competitor.Rob Morse

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Henry Bowman

Gun Free Zones are actually Victim Disarmament Zones!
(I have and will continue to carry a firearm in non-permissive environments when it’s unavoidable for me to be there. All Americans ought to do likewise; the powers-that-be have no power over us that we don’t give them!)

Last edited 1 month ago by Henry Bowman
olddognc

IT HAS BEEN SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE GUN FREE AREAS ARE TARGET RICH ENVIRONMENTS. SAD BUT TRUE CROOKS DON’T FOLLOW LAWS. WANT TO SEE GUN FREE ZONE DISAPPEAR START SUING FOR DAMAGES AND DEMAND PROTECTION AND ESCORT IN AREAS WHICH DENY YOU YOUR RIGHT TO PROTECTION

RC

It’s sad but most likely as not, most criminals do not register their weapons, only the honest law abiding citizen does. The politicians that pass these inane firearm laws, are either the most ill informed folks on the planet or are just plain stupid. It’s funny in a way, a drunk driver is held responsible for whatever action he takes as a driver of a vehicle, yet someone who shoots another person is held responsible, but also the weapon is blamed for the action.

Chuck

The plain and simple truth is that there’s not a single gun law on the books that has reduced criminal activity, period.

Ope

And there never will be.

Terry

You lost me when you said “We agreed” to disarmament in public places. The Republican and Democratic Parties failed us.

We have been lied to. Each and every untried law should come with “sun set” rider, maximum of 4 years. If they fail they disappear. Gun free zones failed miserably, and should be abolished years ago. Gun free zones have killed thousands.

HLB

Every time we acquiesce to to our rights being restricted and taken “We agree”. The political parties are just a front.

HLB

2WarAbnVet

The sign reads … Target Rich Environment!

chiefton

Think about this for a second. If you put up a sign and said “Gays not allowed”, you can be prosecuted for denying someone their right. You can put up a sign and say, “Having a firearm is not allowed” and you are okay. If the sign says, “Blacks are not allowed” you will end up in court but if the social media blocks you from talking badly about the hateful Democrats, that is no problem. There is an extensive list of these contradictions that are very one-sided against conservatives.

Henry Bowman

That’s all deprivation of RIGHTS under color of law. That’s a felony!

Montana454Casull

What they don’t know , won’t hurt them . Concealed means they don’t know its there. The sign is just paint on metal and does not have any power to see through your cloths as it’s not a X ray machine ! Out of sight out of mind ! Nobody has to know its there, because its none of thier buisness !

Terry

Yep

HLB

Nope.
Over time, we have lost much of our weapons rights. That is because we did not openly address the threats to our rights. You can not win a battle by hiding.

HLB

Knute Knute

Unfortunately, far too many people think that one can win by hiding! It never works, but there must be some powerful force acting upon the sheeple to make them think that hiding from aggression is the same as defeating it.
Meanwhile, back in reality, we understand that hiding from evil just enables it. The sheeple need to learn that being an enabler is almost as bad as being the aggressor oneself. They need to learn that, and desperately. Soon. The sooner the better. ASAP! Because the opportunity to learn anything, ever, will soon vanish if they don’t.

Wild Bill

Gasoline prices might do! Hey, what was that terrific quote that you used the other day?

Last edited 1 month ago by Wild Bill
JSNMGC

You have indicated you would not open carry on a Chicago L train unless things change. That seemed like a good way to mitigate your net risk.

HLB

Oh yes, mitigation is always an option, but not really a solution. Solutions are more permanent.

HLB

JSNMGC

Yes, and you mitigate your risk by not open carrying in places where you’re probably going to get arrested and charged with a crime.

HLB

Yes. What about the fringe areas? Should we approach the fringes so that our presence will be noted? My trip to Yellowstone never did happen, but I was trying to figure how far to go.

HLB

JSNMGC

People evaluate risk differently. I don’t carry in the visitor centers at Yellowstone, but I don’t care if anyone else does.

I’d rather try to influence the legislators and encourage law enforcement not to enforce unconscionable laws against their fellow countrymen. A large percentage of people in law enforcement are stubborn, so they will keep right on enforcing. Those people may change when they are completely ostracized from their community.

I’m not going to fight an enforcer (and all the other enforcers who will arrive) on enforcer terms.

Wild Bill

I don’t think that our Second Amendments are permanently lost, just denied to us by unconstitutional statues and the judges and authorities that enforce those statutes.

Henry Bowman

You can thank the surrender monkey NRA for ceding our Rights to the gubbint. NRA members can fix this by supporting Col. Allen West for EVP and FIRE WHINY LaTRINE!

Russn8r

Updated for your viewing pleasure

Ope

The NRA conference in Houston this Friday should be very interesting.

Russn8r

I heard LaPew’s grifters are busing in California NRA toadies to pack the meeting.

Ope

That wouldn’t surprise me a bit. Sounds just like something that scumbag would do too.

Henry Bowman

Given WLP’s proclivity toward unnecessary spending, I imagine he chartered a private jet to bring them in, rather than a 2-3 day bus ride…

HLB

Very impressive…

HLB

TStheDeplorable

With a Supreme Court decision coming out that will likely solidify the right to be armed in public, the battle will turn to using regulations and prohibitions to make it so impractical to legally carry in public that no one will. Take, for instance, the ban on guns within 1000 feet of a school. Unless you are driving in your own town and have lived there a long time, and never drive out of town, you have committed that felony, because you don’t see the school until you’re within 1000 feet of it. States will criminalize entering private property armed… Read more »

Grigori

Gee, thanks for giving them ideas.

Finnky

Nothing new there. @TS simply summarized current state of affairs. Antis already engage in behaviors he mentioned, so he’s not giving them ideas.

Ope

I’m just curious what state you’re referring to regarding the schools part of your comment.

Finnky

Federal law! Fed. law includes provision that it does not apply to concealed carriers licensed by state they are in – if state has chosen to exempt it. If you are in another state, even in states with reciprocity, federal law applies to you. Not sure whether non-resident license exempts you within the issuing state – ought to, but since when do laws make sense? Even bigger issue in constitutional carry states. I applaud our CC here in Texas, but believe carriers under CC are still subject to the 1000′ rule. Could be wildly confused, as I also believe we… Read more »

Ope

I have no idea what jsnmgc reminded you of. But in Texas there is no 1000 ft rule at schools. It’s not federal law at schools.

Terry

In Texas it is 300 feet from a school to use a gun in a crime. It jumps what ever crime to the next level. Here we can carry on school property not in the school building.

Still a stupid restriction but parents don’t have about disarm to let their students off everyday.

Henry Bowman

You should install a gun locker in the console, if the dimensions permit. Otherwise, you may be able to install somewhere else in your vehicle. Colion Noir once reviewed such a locker and gave it a thumbs-up (and he did not get paid to plug it).

MICHAEL J

Society is safer when criminals can’t know who’s armed.

Ope

I sure agree with that. Although I do tend to carry open more than concealed.

swmft

if they know there are armed people around they go elswhere

Ope

Very true but I really advise all open carry to use a quality retention holster and be very aware of the surroundings.

HLB

Cross draw holster pulled around the front side is very difficult for someone else to defeat.

HLB

Knute Knute

Any holster under a jacket is difficult to defeat. A mouse gun in a pocket is impossible to defeat. Unless one is so numb that strangers can rummage around in their pants without them knowing about it! Talk about situation NON-awareness… Holy cow! That takes a rather special kind of hiding! 🙂

Wild Bill

True, but is is a long hand movement and takes time.

HLB

If you pull the butt around to mid-waist, it is right there by your strong hand. It can be pretty fast, but also it is very forgiving of normally adverse body position. Try it.

HLB

Last edited 1 month ago by HLB
Laddyboy

Your comment did not apply to the Policeman in Buffalo NY who died DEFENDING Innocent American Citizens. It is a SHAME that “politicians” do NOT SUPPORT Our American Constitutionally RECOGNIZED RIGHTS!!!

Rowboat

They invented Steath Aircraft for a reason. The element of surprise is one of the biggest advantages we have – keep them guessing !

Grigori

A month or two ago, the Columbiana Centre mall in Columbia, SC was terrorized when a group of thug trash decided to engage in a shootout inside the mall on a Saturday. Multiple bystanders were hit by gunfire and/or injured in the stampede that accompanied the shootout. One person was hospitalized overnight. Thankfully, nobody died. Columbiana Centre has been posted against concealed carry for a few years, but thankfully, the signage was not binding under SC law. For signage to be legally binding, it has to meet specific criteria as to its design, placement, and be at EVERY entrance to… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Grigori
swmft

two malls in florida had this problem one has closed the other likely will too as more crime less shoppers

Grigori

I hope they do close. Stupidity like that does not deserve to stay open.

Boom

What’s a …..mall?

Russn8r

Provisions are usually written into gun-controls so politicians, judges & police officers are exempt.”

Oathbreakers are virtually always exempt, if not by law, by practice & power. Try getting Wild Bill, Oldman & the Oathbreaker posse to admit it.

Knute Knute

Most LEOs cannot even type the name of any of the thousands they’ve killed. If they are unable to even say the names of their victims, then how much less likely are they to just fess up and admit it?
I’m going to go with zero point zero zero zero zero zero zero zero zero one percent! Ten to the negative ninth, for those that can understand scientific notation. 🙂

HLB

I always have to say and choose “million, billion, trillion, gazillion” when I quote numbers to be sure I get them right. Yes, exponents are very useful.

HLB

DDS

If you want to really appear down with big numbers, after “gazillion” throw in “googol” which actually is the name for ten to the 100th power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googol

If that doesn’t floor them enough, throw in “googolplex” which is ten raised to the googol power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex

DDS

For those interested….

Ten to the minus ninth power is called “nano” as in one of Admiral Grace Hopper’s nanoseconds.

JSNMGC

“We already have laws and procedures that hold private citizens and government officials accountable when their negligence injures others.” That’s not correct. Enforcers are frequently shielded from criminal prosecution by their peers, their superiors, and those in the system who want to protect them. Enforcers are frequently shielded from civil suits by qualified immunity, which in practice, is not so qualified immunity. The idea of QI had some merit, but just like other LEO privileges, it was abused. “Our elites already know that gun-control fails. That is why our gun-control laws seldom apply to the elites. Provisions are usually written… Read more »

swmft

no there are laws and laws that undo those we have a mess

Knute Knute

What we have is a system of both “laws” AND “Statutes”, and they contradict each other. The mess is that in practice, the statutes trump the laws, while in the law it is the other way around. The sheeple think both are the same thing, and use both terms interchangeably. Thus the giant mess we find ourselves in.
If it was common to perceive trains and automobiles as one and the same thing, just imagine how many messes we’d have at every rail crossing! 🙂

Rowboat

I see that Alex Baldwin is being held in jail and is being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law while the Patriots that trespassed on public property on Jan 6, are free to roam around freely!
Wait one !! I just got that completely backwards , didn’t I ?
My bad .

JSNMGC

Go on . . .

john

No Show in tell is my thought on infringement from a store owner, What they do not know / they can do nothing about concealed carry it is a good thing.

Criminals do not care about signs or the law in general that’s there advantage, We can’t rob this place it has sign no guns allowed what will they think of next Cant smoke that crack its is drug free zone, shit no guns no drugs. like that would stop these low lifes.

JSNMGC

“No Show in tell is my thought on infringement from a store owner” What is your thought on infringement by a government employee working at a federal government facility (like a visitor center at Yellowstone)? In most states, if a private sector business owner catches you carrying, you will just be asked to leave. If you don’t, you will be trespassed. If government employee catches you carrying inside a federal building (like a visitor center at Yellowstone), he will make a phone call and you will have numerous armed government employees ruining your day. Note: the petty, vindictive, “respect my… Read more »

Russn8r

“I followed orders…and I liked it…”

Of course they’re too dumb to realize that creates the incentive to make sure they never get to make that phone call.

JSNMGC

You should have seen the visitor center employees enforcing mask mandates. They were drunk on the power. It was disgusting.

Russn8r

They know they can safely rely on the misplaced restraint and forbearance of the loyal American citizen…For now…

I hope they get what they deserve, in this life. Worse is better, Comrade.

JSNMGC

There were a number of people in the parking lot talking about the situation. The consensus was “the relationship between government employee and the people who pay them will never be the same.”

Russn8r

Oooh lookit, the crybaby oathbreakers are downvoting. LOL.

JSNMGC

They get frustrated on the internet.

They can’t use their badge and radio to make people respect their authority.

Russn8r

But the downvotes hurt so bad! Boo hoo?

Knute Knute

Boo Hoo. I’m so sad that the flack means I’m dead on the target. Downvotes just mean; “Target in sight. Stay on course.”
I’m a pilot. Could you tell? 🙂

HLB

“On glide path…”

HLB

Knute Knute

The local employees at the Holiday gas station tried the same thing on me last year at the height of the hysteria. When I told them they weren’t my mother and they weren’t in charge of my dress code, they tried; “everybody else is doing it”. I reponded with; “Well, I’m not. So certainly not everybody.” Then she tried; “It’s Holiday policy”. The simple answer to that one was that I don’t work for Holiday, so their policy regarding employees doesn’t apply to me. About then I think her brain started to hurt from the unaccustomed use, so she just… Read more »

JSNMGC

The employees at the Yellowstone visitor centers (in both Wyoming and Montana) were serious about the masks (as they are about firearms). Anyone who tried to enter without a mask (and who refused to wear one) was immediately confronted at the door and turned away.

People laughed at them and walked away, but no one pushed past them into the building because everyone who was present when I was there understood how to mitigate their risk.

Ope

Check out Old Faithful geyser too.

Russn8r

BTW Wild Bill loves prissing over writing style, grammar, spelling etc, yet he didn’t point out it’s “show AND tell.”

At least he didn’t send John on a gopher chase this time – his other M.O. – “Wow! That’s interesting. Please do a bunch of work and tell us more! [snicker snicker]”

Or…”I know a lot about that act of congress [but I won’t say anything relevant about it.]”

john

You have to be smarter then they and know what you can do without having any issues. Carrying inside a federal building you will be searched or a medical detector. You are asking for trouble that is unnecessary Carrying into a private business while shopping no one is going to search you Keep it concealed mind you business and if you have to protect yourself deal with while still alive and the bad guy dead. In some parks carrying is legal in others not so I chose were I go to enjoy my life if I do not like the… Read more »

JSNMGC

I was asking about you. You don’t need to tell me what I should do.

There are no metal detectors at Yellowstone visitor centers (which are federal buildings). There are petty, vindictive, “respect my authority” government employees who are on power trips who work there and watch for people who may be carrying firearms.

Last edited 1 month ago by JSNMGC
john

I should have refreshed the word YOU to I or Me

I never intended to direct that comment meaning that I am telling you what to do.

JSNMGC

I see.

Thank you.

What are your thoughts on ignoring the rules established by government employees at public places?

Do you think private property owners should not be allowed to establish rules about firearms on their property? I’m not suggesting there should be a crime associated with breaking the rule, but if someone does not follow the rule they can be asked to leave, just like they can be asked to leave for other reasons. If they don’t, they could be trespassed.

john

I thought we covered this out of respect for your question I will again try to make is simple

I follow the rules in all government buildings not worth the legal problems and there is simply no reason to rock that boat.

What is concealed on my body is my business no one else’s I live my life by the code of Bushido

Thank you
The Bushido code contains eight key principles or virtues that warriors were expected to uphold.

john

“If your spend your whole life seaking the perfect flower and never find it, you have lived a good life” Perfection can never be obtained the search for this is life itself. Having the integrity to approach serious decisions with the right mindset. Manners and courtesy at all times. Courage and valor are about more than just bravery in battle.  Honesty and trust are utmost important Always leave a retreat for you emeny to save face.  Soothe the mind and improve mental focus Today, this guiding philosophy still affects the way I live and others today in the twenty first century.… Read more »

john

Waiting approval please read this if its get approved
Thank you

Wild Bill

So you are apologizing to him?

JSNMGC

“So you are apologizing to him?” ~ Wild Bill

There you go again.

He was just clarifying what he meant.

You do try to lead conversations away from matters of substance, like:

  • Private sector rules on private property (the violations of which could lead to a person being asked to leave); and
  • Government rules on public property (the violations of which could lead to being charged with a felony).

It’s an interesting conversation. Anti firearm right politicians are trying to not only criminalize carrying on public property, but also on private property.

Last edited 1 month ago by JSNMGC
Rowboat

That’s the same reason I chose not to go to, or thru any of the Socialist states that don’t recognize my Virginia concealed carry permit.
I used to travel to the New England skiing resorts – they no longer get any of my money- same goes for Colorado and Commiefornia.

john

I enjoy life on my terms ! it would seem I am not alone in that life style.

Wild Bill

See John? You try to be civil to him and he will slap you in the face every time.

Russn8r

LOL. As if you ever tried to be civil with him.

JSNMGC

He’s frustrated.

He spent a lot of years telling a lot of people he was right because of his position. They had to accept it or be punished.

Wild Bill

There are no debates like that when conduction operations. Commanders send taskers down and you send your plans up for review, and accept your commanders suggestions based upon his and his S2, S3, and S4 review.
When the annex is complete you discuss the plan in detail with your subordinates. Please see FM 5-100

JSNMGC

You try so hard. John started off with his thoughts on infringement by the private sector. I asked him about his thoughts on infringement by government employees. He avoided the question and started explaining to me what I need to do. I don’t need him to tell me what to do. I am interested in why he thinks the owners of private property are infringing on rights and whether he applies his approach to private sector locations to government locations. That is, he ignores the rules of private property owners – does he ignore the rules established by government employees… Read more »

john

I did not avoid you question I myself do not go to any place that I am uncomfortable or subject to another’s rules. A federal building If I had business there I will comply. I also do not feel the need to let others engage on my freedoms as a America.
And that is about as much personal information that I am willing to share.

JSNMGC

Ok.

Wild Bill

Just from your writing, it was evident that you were making good conversation. His response was typically uncalled for.
He and his partner have chased many away, never to return, I hope that you don’t go.

Last edited 1 month ago by Wild Bill
JSNMGC

A number of accounts have gone away, but they were the same person (and he’s still posting & voting, but under a different account).

Russn8r

More projection by the head TROLL of Ammoland, Wild Bill.

Wild Bill

Unworthy of comment.

Russn8r

Translation: Unable to comment because it’s true.

Your 20-Sock-Team Posse “went away”, far as I can tell, because it was BANNED for crude attacks, and it was run by someone who’s already been banned many times, like your buddy TEX-Jesse-Bruce-Ford-Will-308 et ilk.

What’s “most humorous” is how you pretend that gunners who post here are fragile little bubble boys who run away crying when someone disagrees with them.

Last edited 1 month ago by Russn8r