Good guy with a gun in Springfield, Missouri raises questions about guns in public

Good guy with a gun in Springfield, Missouri raises questions about guns in public
Good guy with a gun in Springfield, Missouri raises questions about guns in public

U.S.A.-(Ammoland.com)- A man with a rifle and a hundred rounds entered a Walmart in Springfield, Missouri less than a week after the mass shooting in El Paso, according to Lt. Mike Lucas of the city’s police department, and moved through the store, taking video and making comments to shoppers, then exited to be held at gunpoint by an off-duty firefighter until law enforcement arrived. The twenty-year-old was originally said to have been wearing body armor, though this later was identified as a “tactical vest.” The suspect is in jail, and a felony charge of a terroristic threat in the second degree has been filed against him. He claims that he was performing a “social experiment,” in part a test of Missouri’s open carry law.

No shots were fired, either by the suspect or the off-duty firefighter, so this incident will not qualify as a mass shooting or to some people as a defensive gun use—the latter being defined by gun control advocates all too often as requiring a justifiable homicide to count. And what exactly the suspect did—was his rifle on a sling or in his hands, was he sweeping the muzzle around at random or pointing it at particular people—isn’t specified in the reports. Nor was the method by which the firefighter was carrying his firearm. What I can say, based on available information, is that a good guy spotted a knucklehead who was creating havoc and brought the incident to a halt.

What happened here has the potential to divide the gun community. The claim made by the suspect puts him into the phenomenon of “Second Amendment auditing,” the practice of walking around in public with an openly carried firearm for the purpose of testing how much law enforcement officers and the general public know about local gun laws. And presuming that the firefighter had his firearm covered prior to seeing the suspect, this sets up a contrast between concealed and open carry.

As a supporter of rights generally, I understand the motivation to make people think about how the law often violates rights or accepts their exercise in unequal ways. Rosa Parks comes immediately to mind, as does the question of how safe a gay couple would be in many parts of America were they to hold hands while in public. At the same time, to take those two examples, if Parks had brought a bass drum with her and insisted on pounding on it during the bus ride, or if the hypothetical gay couple—or any couple, for that matter—were to engage in sex acts on a crowded sidewalk, the situation will have moved away from a test of rights into the imposition of personal choices on others.

In regard to the carrying of firearms, I go back to the distinctions that Jeff Cooper makes between a handgun and a long gun. A handgun is something to wear while doing other things, while a long gun is what you bring when you are going to a fight. This is akin to what separates carrying and brandishing. A weapon in a holster or hanging from a sling is a sign that the person in possession simply has the gun. If, by contrast, the firearm is in the person’s hands, the presumption of intention becomes reasonable.

The suspect in Missouri did cause the reasonable fear that lives were in danger, and given what I know at present, I will say that the firefighter acted appropriately, even if we ultimately learn that what happened was only a test with no plan to kill anyone. We can learn from this incident that good people who carry firearms have a role to play in protecting society. And we can learn that in the context of mass shootings in the news, we who support gun rights have to think about the effects of our behaviors. The appearance of a firearm is going to scare enough people who vote to say that if we do carry openly, it needs to be done in a manner that is as nonthreatening as possible.

By analogy, hold hands with your partner in public, but don’t fornicate on the lawn. Carry your weapon legally, and if you have it visible to others, keep it demonstrably available but not in use. And don’t go around harassing others. A sign in our hands can start a conversation. A firearm in the same narrows the situation down to a tiny number of possibilities.


About Greg CampGreg Camp

Greg Camp has taught English composition and literature since 1998 and is the author of six books, including a western, The Willing Spirit, and Each One, Teach One, with Ranjit Singh on gun politics in America. His books can be found on Amazon. He tweets @gregcampnc.

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    targetedartistHeed the Call-upWillTheRevelatorOldmarine Recent comment authors
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    targetedartist
    Member
    targetedartist

    Many people across America today are targeted with directed energy weapons, microwave, radio wave, acoustic and radar weapons (DEWs). Similar to what the US Cuban Diplomats went through in Cuba… but they got to ‘go home.’ For most TIs their home is where they are targeted. Have noticed since this phenomenon went into full throttle in 2001 that what the military tagged, ‘gangstalkers’ that use these covert and illegal weapons are ‘above the law.’ In Springfield, MO there are so many incidents occurring now that are done by people ‘above the law’ that our crime rate is raising fast. USA… Read more »

    Will
    Member
    Will

    JOIN GOA ! “THE ONLY NO-COMPROMISE GUN LOBBY IN WASHINGTON” !

    Will
    Member
    Will

    Wild Bill said a few days ago that this kids attorney would probably take his case on contingency if the DA is stupid enough to file charges and prosecute him. A great defense attorney would also prob.take it pro bono with a % of the monetary award for damages to this kid who did nothing illegal. Both of these are really the same difference,contingency. But,does anyone know how to set up a GoFundMe acct. for this kid if they do prosecute him for exercising his 2A civil rights ?

    Charles Nichols
    Member

    Concealed carry is of no use to me. I don’t carry a purse or wear a dress.

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @CN,In Texas,I carry open every day ! I only had one problem in over four years. A women at Target a couple years back had two young kids with her. The little girl really did seem quite upset,not scared,just upset. So I walked out of the store until they left,and went on about my business.

    Oldmarine
    Member
    Oldmarine

    Will I live in Utah and open carry but no one cares, in Wyoming the same also in Idaho. Why … Well because people know it’s legal and a personal choice. When you are obeying the law then people should keep their nose out of you business. Someone getting scared or fearful then that is their fault not yours. The Constitution is the Law of the Land and anyone ( including judges ) violating that trust is guilty of attacking not only the Constitution but also every law abiding citizen. Fear can NOT be regulated or controlled so it becomes… Read more »

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    HEY WE NOW GOTS US A EDIT BUTTON

    HUZZAH HUZZAH HUZZAH

    TheRevelator
    Member
    TheRevelator

    And there will be people who will use it to change what they said, unless it is strictly time sensitive. Edit buttons serve to bypass accountability. If someone is dumb enough to say something while they were not thinking, it should remain. Going back and whitewashing it as if it never happened, changing history, that is not a part of the left that Ammoland should end up helping.

    If you say something, you better stand behind it. If proved wrong, you should be held accountable to your words.

    RAM
    Member
    RAM

    To continue with the Rosa Parks theme what would have been the good of her establishing the right to sit where ever she wanted if every black person then only sat “at the rear of the bus”.? If you never exercise your rights they do you no good at all. Sort of like those folks who decide not to vote even though they have the legal right to do so. They forfeit their rights to the whims of others. Quote: “What I can say, based on available information, is that a good guy spotted a knucklehead who was creating havoc… Read more »

    Xaun Loc
    Member
    Xaun Loc

    There was NO “good guy with a gun” — there were TWO idiots with guns! There was no “defensive gun use” — there was assault with a deadly weapon if you apply the law strictly or at least brandishing if you give the off duty fire fighter every possible benefit of the doubt. Open carrying a rifle in Walmart, especially so soon after the Walmart mass shooting elsewhere, was ridiculously stupid — but it was perfectly legal under Missouri law. The “terroristic threatening” charge is pure BS dreamed up by the prosecutor because Missouri doesn’t have a Felony Stupidity charge… Read more »

    GUNS r US
    Member
    GUNS r US

    If some idiot had shown up and started shooting up the Wal-Mart, he may have been the hero! Who wants to bring a pistol to a rifle fight!

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    BTW…I have a nephew who is a swat officer … couple funny stories there ha ha ha .

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    Some of you are playing What If …So here is one for you . Lets say clean cut young man was actually LE – SWAT OFFICER ! Maybe just returned from a practice session . WHAT happens to your firefighter when he draws down on that young man ? charges of assault of a law officer come to mind , possible dead firefighter . what if ???

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    OK…so splane this to me …ANTIFA actually goes out and assaults people . Why aren’t they arrested ? Why they are just out expressing their right to free speech , right? This kid did less that what ANTIFA does and he’s white so they arrest him ! He damaged no property assaulted no one , insulted no one . SO just what did he do to get arrested .

    CCW
    Member
    CCW

    The elected officials, i.e. liberal democrat mayors (who control the police force), want/need their (continued) votes to stay in office..
    Mystery solved. 🙂

    Poppy Wayne
    Member
    Poppy Wayne

    No matter what your “feelings” are on this matter, he broke no laws. “Minority Report” has no bearing over the Bill of Rights.
    Ammoland, thank you for the vote up & down feature.

    CCW
    Member
    CCW

    I wonder what will happen in court if the majority of witnesses answer “NO” to the following questions:
    Upon seeing the suspect:
    -Did you run out of the store screaming?
    -Did you run and hide?
    -Did you call 911 and report a sighting of a terrorist?
    -Did you throw canned goods at him? (like some school systems teach children).

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    What I do not know is whether the Walmart store had a posted prohibition of carrying on their property. That is the critical element followed by whether anyone from the store requested assistance from the CCW permit holder. All I know at this point is that the open carry guy has been charged with terroristic threat. “If, by contrast, the firearm is in the person’s hands, the presumption of intention becomes reasonable.” I heartily disagree with this sentiment. The manner in which you hold a firearm in your hands is highly important. Having a rifle or shotgun pointed down and… Read more »

    Bill
    Member
    Bill

    Excellent comment about rifle in hands, rather than hanging on a sling. This a clearly aggressive stance of readiness for action, and not a peaceful, “I’m just carrying this thing through here” stance. It makes no real sense if the guy is just out shopping, it shows an attitude that is suspect, as much as if some guy were walking through the store clenching his fists, looking at people in a hostile way, and muttering curses. Sure, maybe he is harmless, but he is acting in a way that should naturally put bystanders on very high alert.

    Oldmarine
    Member
    Oldmarine

    Isn’t that life? ? ?

    CCW
    Member
    CCW

    This guy looks (and is dressed) like the young clean-cut Sherriff’s deputies we have around here when they return from a long day in the field looking for whacky weed.. If I was to turn the corner in the Walmart parking lot and see an old (scraggly?) guy pointing a gun at what appeared to be a Sherriff’s deputy I’d be inclined to shoot the old guy. Hey, I know, since we’re pandering to the feelings and emotions of scared rabbit-like hoplophobes who are too irresponsible or lazy to arm themselves for their own safety (or that of their family… Read more »

    MICHAEL J
    Member
    MICHAEL J

    Never test your rights to make a point. The rights you think you have are only granted by those who know the laws. The rest haven’t a clue.

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    Are you clueless of where our rights originate? They are certainly not granted by anyone.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @USA…If you were refering too Lee ,Read him again he’s basicly saying the same as you

    pieslapper
    Member
    pieslapper

    1. Open carry is legal in Missouri.
    2. The exercise of a civil right is not subject to the whims, feelings, or anxieties of others.

    Bill
    Member
    Bill

    You must have never had a daughter with a miniskirt up to the top of her butt who said, “If it bothers other people, well, that’s their problem, not mine.”

    Operator Z
    Member
    Operator Z

    LOL. Very true. Feel free to exercise your right but the sheep will still bah when you do. It’s to separate issues.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    No daughter of mine would ever weark a “skirt” that looks like panties anywhere outide her bedrooom or bathroom. So your point is….. what, exactly? Wearing such a piece of cloth would bother HER so much she’d never consider it.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Bill …if she did she never let me see it ! She knew better , she was also very careful about the boys she brought home !

    Oldmarine
    Member
    Oldmarine

    The law of the Land ” US Constitution ” GOOD ANSWER

    JimmyB
    Member
    JimmyB

    I think your article was exactly what we, as gun rights advocates, need to hear. I’ve loved guns since I was old enough to know what they were but only recently have I started to study everything about them from every angle, personal, social, political etc. I believe in the 2nd amendment but I also believe that we have a social obligation to carry responsibly. Open carry can cause extreme anxiety in others, especially with the frequency of mass shootings. But on the other hand, our best defense against these acts are those that carry and can suppress those looking… Read more »

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    READ some period history of how things were in colonial times. Most colonies and towns had lawsREQUIRiNG that the men carry along with them their long guns as their families made their way to the churchhouse for meetings. And they were REQUIRED to keep them primed and ready during the meetings. This came in particulalry handy one fine sabbath morn in Massachussetts when General Gage had sent out a small raiding party on his third “power raid” in his futlie quest to disarm the Colonials. He had dliberately chosen the sabbath knowing all the men would be in meeting with… Read more »

    John
    Member
    John

    Unless this young man was barred by some law possessing the weapons he had on his person, he was exercising his 2nd Amendment Constitutional Right to keep and bear arms. It could also be argued he engaged in political expression, thus his First Amendment Rights were as well on display. The exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime. It would seem this principle would be even more binding when multiple Rights are being exercised at the same time as here. Bad idea as family members conveyed – time will tell. Burning the American Flag many would… Read more »

    DCW
    Member
    DCW

    This clown and idiots like him are the reason gun owners get a bad reputation. I do not know a single “civilian” who goes around daily with a rifle as a daily carry firearm or dressed in body armor. The man with a concealed carry firearm, in light of the recent shooting, had every right to feel there was a threat here. The clown should be glad the man had the restraint and calm attitude to not pull the trigger.

    Heed the Call-up
    Member
    Heed the Call-up

    DCW, you and others like you show how ignorant the general public is about our rights and laws. No, the CC holder had no right under our laws to brandish his firearm and illegally detain/kidnap the OC person. The OC person, regardless of how “wise” it was to OC a rifle in that Wal-mart, did *nothing* illegal. In every CC and self-defense class I have ever taken, *never* have I been told, nor read, nor implied that one is legally justified in drawing or shooting one’s firearm without just cause of threat of great bodily harm or death. In this… Read more »

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    While the entire premise of your comment is incorrect, the part that strikes me the most is your contention that the rifle carrier was wearing armor. That is decidedly false.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @DCW, The garage door contractors came over, this morning to put a new door on my workshop. They all had guns.
    You wrote, “… had every right to feel there was …”. What does that even mean? Are you saying that you have some Constitutional Right to make decisions based on feelings rather than thought? Which Constitutional Amendments are you referring to?
    Why do you judge individual gun owners by reputation, when you don’t do that with Moslems?

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @WB,I wonder where TheRev is ?

    TheRevelator
    Member
    TheRevelator

    @Will

    Had some family stuff this past week required most of my time. Glad you and Wild Bill have been holding down the fort.

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @TheRev,I’m sure glad you’re back. I sure hope everything is really good with your family. Take care and talk to you soon,

    Oldmarine
    Member
    Oldmarine

    You Sir are a WILLING VICTIM. talk about UN-prepared ? your grave marker will read ” UNPREPARED ” Fear is in control of your persona. I guess you prefer words to weapons? Not very natural for a human beaning. Cave men were even smarter that that.

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    Interestingly enough the only crime committed was the fireman drawing down on the guy. The guy did NOT have the rifle in his hand. It was being carried openly on the sling down in front of him. He was falsely arrested. Once his intent was understood he should have been released. HE did not violate any LAW on the books in Missouri. To charge him with a pretend crime is a crime in and of itself. There were no VICTIMS. Making him a NON criminal. Now whine about it all you want, but that is the way the LAW for… Read more »

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    The firemen did not break any laws.. the firemen will not be charged.. the fireman thought this was a copycat mass shooting.. well within his rights.. you better hope and pray that concealed carrier’s can stop some of these mass shootings or it will completely dull the argument for concealed carry..

    Operator Z
    Member
    Operator Z

    I don’t know if I’d justify the fireman but unlike everyone else here I’d say the fact that the firefighters were responding to an alarm and very one is running from the store than they encounter this guy and in light of the recent shootings. It’s called totality of the circumstances. I probably would have got the hell out of there. The store manager really is the main one who overreacted. I don’t believe that any charges are warranted for anyone in this situation. Let the dogs lie and drop the whole thing. Clearly we need more education on firearms… Read more »

    Xaun Loc
    Member
    Xaun Loc

    The OFF DUTY FIRE FIGHTER who illegally brandished his gun and illegally ASSAULTED another person was NOT responding the the false alarm. He was simply one of the people shopping at Walmart who evacuated the store when the idiot store manager sounded the FALSE fire alarm to cause a panic in his store.

    Xaun Loc
    Member
    Xaun Loc

    Well you are half right, 24and7. The fire fighter will not be charged. But he most certainly did break the law when he drew his firearm and threatened another person without legal justification. And he most certainly did NOT have legal justification. The laws for civilian use of firearms are quite strict. Simply pointing a gun at someone without justification is ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON even though that is often plea bargained down to just BRANDISHING. There was no legal justification for the civilian concealed carrier to draw his gun and threaten anyone. No one was threatening him. Simply… Read more »

    Xaun Loc
    Member
    Xaun Loc

    Actually, CourageousLion, the CCW holder drawing down on the open carrier was NOT the ONLY crime committed. The Walmart Manager also committed a crime when he sounded the false fire alarm.

    That false fire alarm exacerbated the situation, resulting in at least one person being injured in the stampede of shoppers trying to flee the (not) burning store — most of whom had never seen the guy with the rifle.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    I guess only people who support a man dressed in all tactical gear and armed to the teeth, in a public place, can make a comment here..right? Two comments in support of the heroic fireman removed …

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    One rifle Is armed to the teeth? Not by a long shot. Might I suggest that before you come on a site filled with people who both understand firearms, the rights and restrictions associated with them and proper actions in carrying them, you bone up on the subjects listed. Otherwise, your lack of knowledge on these topics will become immediately apparent and open you up for ridicule. I would also suggest that were you to ask questions instead of making false statements, you will find that these fine folks will be more than willing to point you in the right… Read more »

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    Every mass shooter had ONE RIFLE..A MARINE HAS ONE RIFLE..YES..ARMED TO THE TEETH..

    Oldmarine
    Member
    Oldmarine

    Us Marines have many weapons with us at all times. The most dangerous one is the adaptable mind creating weapons from anything in reach. A ” GUN ” is just another tool to use. Yes armed to the teeth could also mean using the teeth, how about that?

    TheRevelator
    Member
    TheRevelator

    @24and7

    For those unaware, go back and look up the Virginia tech Shooting. Pretty sure the murderer used two handguns. @24and7 is inventing facts it seems about his “Every” comment.

    Heed the Call-up
    Member
    Heed the Call-up

    The Virginia Beach killer had two handguns, no long guns. You appear to enjoy being the fool.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    “Heroic fireman”? On what basis? The guy wiht the long gun was calmly walking about in public, rifle on a two point sling hanging in front, muzzle down. Eyewitness accounts had his manner and bearing to be non-threatening, walking about and chatting, not touching the rifle or implying any threat with it. Manager, on the mere sight of the rifle, pulled the FIRE alarum, when there was NO FIRE. How did Mista Manager know the guy with the long gun in the store was not the ploy to MAKE someone panic and pull the alarum, causing the hundreds of shoppers… Read more »

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    IVE BEEN IN COMBAT..I WORK THE STREETS..IM NOT A KEY BOARD COMMANDO LIKE YOU..I DARE YOU TO DO THE SAME AS THIS MORON WHERE I LIVE..HAVE YOUR AFFAIRS PLANNED OUT IF YOU DO..

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    If you have to type you’re not a “keyboard commando “ in all caps, followed by an “I work the streets” followed by a veiled threat…. you are probably a keyboard commando.

    Heed the Call-up
    Member
    Heed the Call-up

    So you would shoot a law-abiding person just because he/she is OC? You are admitting to having a predilection to committing murder. It would appear you are the danger to our society.

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @24/7,you’ve about made yourself out to be as a complete and total moron as you can. All you do is rant,rave,and scream like an idiot. Nothing you post makes any sense in the reality of this kid.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    Whatever you don’t make a make a slightly Politically Incorrect comment… it will disappear..

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    Comment here and get your comment censored! Political correctness here only! completely pathetic ammo Land!

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    I have my doubts, maybe you haven’t realized that this is the second article on this topic.

    Last time I looked at the other topic there was some deranged guy flinging the n-word around everywhere and he hasn’t been banned, or had his posts deleted so I don’t see why yours would be.

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @24/7,I have been posting on Ammoland for years and they have never edited or censored any of my comments. Are you sure you are telling the truth ?

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    YOU DONT KNOW ME AT ALL..NO BETTER FRIEND NO WORSE AN ENEMY..

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    The armed social experiment was a moronic idea.. he deserved to be charged with a crime.. maybe not a felony but misdemeanors at least.. the firemen saw a potential terrorist act and was proactive enough to do something.. the fireman gives plenty of encouragement that armed citizens can handle these events, because police can’t be everywhere.. the fireman deserves an award.. I am a passionate defender of the Second Amendment but I’m not going to dress in all tactical gear with my rifle and walk through town either.. where I’m from you may get shot on sight… he’s lucky he… Read more »

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    The fireman isn’t a cop. He wasn’t even a firefighter (he was a retired firefighter) he was a CCW holder who held a man at gun point breaking multiple laws on a whim. And considering the guy was leaving having not shot anyone his whim was wrong.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    A good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun.. doesn’t have to be a cop.. you better hope some of these concealed carriers stop these mass shootings.. the police cant do it.. if the situation was different that doofus could have killed a bunch of people in short-order, if it wasn’t for that fireman.. you cant criticize the firemen, he did what he thought was right.. and by the way the firemen did not break any laws.. it was a proper citizens arrest.. I happen to know just a little bit about law enforcement..

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    This wasn’t a mass shooting, the guy was leaving having never fired or even pointed his gun at anyone. If it wasn’t for the fireman the same thing would have happened, nothing. See you have to twist what happened to make your stance work, “if the situation was different” well it wasn’t, he didn’t do that, he was leaving, if he wanted to shoot someone why didn’t he? He had plenty of time to do so while he was in Walmart, while he was in the parking lot, while he was entering Walmart, he did not. And yes the fireman… Read more »

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @31, doesn’t have to be a cop, but does have to be really, really right! That part about “… the police can’t do it.” Is wrong too. People are free to discuss situations and people with the police, and police are free to observe, and develop probable cause, or repudiate information.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    A good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun. Really? I will assume, for I have no basis from YOUR comment, if wrong correct me, that “good guy” was the handgun carrier who took what HE considered “approproate action” to stop a threat. That leaves the “bad guy” was the long gun carrier who had spent some time walking through the store, his weapon safely slung, never handing it nor implying any direct threat to anyone, who had completed his mission , (however that might have been defined in his mind) and was leaving the store,… Read more »

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    MY opinion: the prosecutor needs to call a meeting with himself, the store manager, the handgun carrier, and the long gun carrier, (this last, sans orange jumpsuit, as he needs to first be released) and go over some of the more salient points of Missouri law. Talk about what is legal, what is wise, political protests, restraint, etd. Let them all talk and explain what they did and why, let any who were wrongly percieved explain. Nodarate, no screaming, no accusations, no diatribe….. calmly and rationall discuss the situation.TWO of them broke Missouri law, and LGG guy is not one… Read more »

    RoyD
    Member
    RoyD

    So “24and7” “knows just a little bit about law enforcement.” Seems to prove that old saw, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” He is good for a laugh though.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    I HAVE THE SCARS TO PROVE IT..

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @24/7,you are about three shy of a 6 pack !

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @24, When the S. Ct upheld the radical libtards flag burning social experiment as expression speech, you were supportive. But when we exercise our First Amendment Rights through physical expression, your feelings get hurt. We are going to use the flag burning case to metaphorically beat the democratic national socialists over the head.
    Note to everyone else: I had to include metaphorically.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @ 24-7 I see two posts here are they the ones you refer to ?

    AZ Lefty
    Member
    AZ Lefty

    ERZc ellent Article it appears you understand not only how the Constitution works but how our laws do also unlike many of those attacking you!

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @USA,you got that right !!!

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    A wannabe cop held a man a gun point who did nothing illegal. Breaking multiple laws.
    Also I believe the manager of the Walmart was the one who caused the most panic.

    Rights either exist or they don’t, and if rights stop at other people’s feelings, they pretty much don’t exist.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    The fireman that drew down on the idiot did the right thing..nuff said

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    To all down voters.. I guess if you see a man in tactical gear and an AR-15 rifle with multiple magazines in view.. in a public place at that.. and not being a police officer is not a reason to be concerned.. after all the tragedies we’ve seen in the past week ..YOU HAVE LOST YOUR MINDS!!.. at least the firemen was proactive and held him at gunpoint until the police arrived..what ifs dont matter here a good guy with a gun did something, which is very encouraging.. a police officer would have done exactly the same thing as the… Read more »

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    You’re whole argument relies on What ifs.
    You’re argument only works if the guy was shooting people, which he did not do, he didn’t break any laws, and he was leaving. The only people who broke the law was the retired fireman, and the store manager.
    If someone is teaching you that a CCW gives you the power to illegally detain and threaten to shoot people you have been misinformed.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @JMR, 31 just described our municipal shooting range, and no we are not concerned.

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    The guy was EXITING the Walmart on his way to his car when the off duty fireman committed the crime he did against the “auditor”. And no I haven’t lost my mind. I’m just not a scardy cat getting my pink undies all in a wad like you appear to be. I’d rather have scary freedom then peaceful slavery.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    the next time you see a man armed to the teeth in tactical gear , at walmart that’s not a cop.. I guess you just shouldn’t worry about it right.. apparently you have lost your mind.. why don’t you go to El Paso and Dayton and ask them the same damn question..

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    You comment is based on emotion rather than logic. Educate yourself on what actions are lawful then get back to us.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    First, long gun guy i WalMart was not “armed to the teetg”. Hah, he dint eben have him wunna dem HANDGUNS!!!! And he only had ONE longgun. What a wimp!! Sarc off/ now, next time I am in WalMart armed (when have I ever gone into WalMart NOT armed? Hah, even day afte triple hernia surgery when I had to bum a ride from a friend to WalMart to get something I was packing. Friend did not know, he hates guns, but I was in spite of him(. and I heppen to notice someine walking around carrying a rifle (or… Read more »

    JMR
    Member
    JMR

    You must live in a weird world if you can pull a gun on someone who broke no laws, take them hostage, and it be the right thing.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    Up until the shooting in Dayton and El Paso, the shooters armed to the teeth broke no laws either.. then they started killing.. I would pull my gun first too against those odds.. the armed young man was looking for trouble and found it

    Lee
    Member
    Lee

    You probably would pull your gun first without justification and you would probably get shot. I, and many others here, are trained to move, draw and fire in under a second while untrained people like you are wondering what is happening. Please do not acquire a firearm of any kind until you get the desire to be a hero out of your mind.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    JUST LIKE I SAID IVE SEEN MORE ACTION THAN YOU EVER HAVE..KEEP WATCHING COPS MAYBE YOU WILL SEE ME

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @24/7,you’re more full of sh*it than a Christmas turkey !

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @31, Our legal system was designed to give every individual the maximum freedom to explore right up to the boundaries of the law. It is each individual’s decision whether to break the law or not.
    Government intervention before one breaks the law is called a police state.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    Dayton killer (most of us here are shooters.. HE was a kille,r which most of is here are not) had an illegally modified handgun, from some of what I’ve read… he carried that handgun into the home with the iNTENT of killing…. broke some laws right ther,e didn’t he? And WITH THAT INTENT in his heart, I have no question those who occupied that dwelling KNEW he was up to no good. Can’t rememver for certain whether he broke in, or simply knocked up the door and was let in…. but I’ve no doubt his evil intent was recognised wihtim… Read more »

    Vanns40
    Member
    Vanns40

    No, actually not “nuff said”, far from it. We’ve been conditioned by Liberals to accept seeing folks DISARMED everywhere. Suppose, instead, we started getting used to having folks carrying all the time? It wasn’t that long ago when carrying a long gun was typical in this country. Since most of our mass shootings appear to take place in “gun free zones” perhaps it’s time to reverse that, repeal ALL firearms laws and simply go back to enforcing long standing laws against murder, rape, robbery and assault.

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    It takes a complete idiot to go stand in front of Walmart after 2 mass shootings.. armed like that for shits and giggles.. the young man was looking for trouble and found it..

    Will
    Member
    Will

    24/7,take your own advice with ‘Nuff said ! ‘Nuff said !

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    ABSOLUTELY. Either you HAVE the right or you don’t and by so many NOT exercising the right, there are mass shooters on the loose shooting people. Think that Dayton would have happened if the victims were armed? Think El Paso would have happened if the victims where armed? Sure a couple may have died but not those numbers. I can guarantee you…if it ever happens near me? I will be the guy running towards the gunfire with a big smile on my face.I will want to bag the psycho and put his head on my wall after getting it stuffed.

    Deplorable Bill
    Member
    Deplorable Bill

    I hope this was not a dry run. Why was he filming himself in the store? Although in very poor taste, it is legal in MO to open carry. Had I seen a situation like this one the very least I would do would be to follow him and keep him in range of my sidearm. Maybe a discrete call to 911 would be in order. That would be about I could do until he actually un shoulders the weapon. People have got to learn not to panic. Paranoia will destroy ya. We must see and understand the situation as… Read more »

    Baldwin
    Member
    Baldwin

    People have got to learn not to panic…but you’re contemplating a “discrete” 911 call? Don’t panic but swatting is ok?

    tomcat
    Member
    tomcat

    @DB Good explanation. We all know that the teens and twenties make us do things we wouldn’t at an older age, testosterone is a good thing to blame. Even if he did do something stupid I don’t think he did anything that was illegal. He is a clean cut young person, one of the few left, and kept his gun in the carry position. I have seen no proof that he brandished the gun or threatened anyone. I would take a seat on that jury

    RoyD
    Member
    RoyD

    I suggest that Mr. Camp lay off the intoxicating substances before trying to write a cogent opinion piece. Or perhaps he is just another Fudd trying to be relevant. In any case, his offering was much less than impressive.

    ConfusedForeignGirl
    Member
    ConfusedForeignGirl

    Even if it’s legal, it seem this just scare others who would then push for new gun laws. I would think best way to make guns less stygmatized would be to maybe not open carry an ar15 while shopping right after a mass shooting. Doing this is just going to give anti gun people arguing points to ban them.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @CFG, If you are an alien, then you are probably not aware that the highest US law recognizes the unchangeable, unbridgeable Civil Right of Americans to keep and carry firearms. Firearms can not be banned. Gun laws, new or old, are unconstitutional legislative acts, not law.
    What country claims you?

    ConfusedForeignGirl
    Member
    ConfusedForeignGirl

    I recently became a US citizen and a gun owner (originally from Norway) but I immigrated to California for school. I agree with what you’re saying but that doesn’t mean my AR15 isn’t heavily restricted to remain legal here. Yes you’re probably right but that won’t stop me from being arrested for open carrying mine

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @CFG, Welcome, and what firearm did you buy for yourself. Regarding California, that state government is violating peoples civil rights because they have minions to enforce their dictates. They care not for the people or this Republic. Pick a free state and leave CA behind.

    ConfusedForeignGirl
    Member
    ConfusedForeignGirl

    I bought beretta px4 and a Daniel Defense DDM4V7. Much better shot with rifle than pistol though. Wish I could get concealed carry (I work as a photographer and have almost been robbed several times now) but living in San Francisco, that impossible (sorry if English is bad, it’s my 4th language)

    Heed the Call-up
    Member
    Heed the Call-up

    My favorite handgun is my full-frame Beretta PX4 .45 cal. I also have one in 9 mm sub-compact.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    Excellent choices in arms, there….. I have some Berettas, though I much prefer the earlier 92’s . have some in nine and some in forty. fine handguns. The rifle.. I personally am not comfortable with the AR style, so don’t own any. But I teach rifle marksmanship and have seen planty of those DD rifles, He makes an excellent product. (side note.. I also have two of the legendary Swedish military rifles, the WW 2 vintage 6.5 Swede, very common in Norway as well. VERY accurate, lightweight, very capable out to about 600 yards. I’ll chime in with the others… Read more »

    Will
    Member
    Will

    @CFG,like WB said,get out of that sh*it hole ASAP. Just some advice,don’t tell a lot of people about your firearms. Silence is definitely golden in Kali. PS,your English is just fine.

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    Women open carrying is HOT!!!

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    I agree with you saying that carrying an AR15 around right after a mass shooting may not be too bright, BUT not being bright isn’t a violation of law and this guy did NOT violate any law in Misery. They are making it LOOK like he violated one and had to dig for it. The MANAGER should be tried for causing a panic. (well not really)

    CourageousLion
    Member
    CourageousLion

    In the event of civil war…my rifle is going to have a major work over.

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    it seem this just scare others who would then push for new gun laws. One possible motive. From the man’s name, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that he comes from a people who had endured a few generations of soviet occupation, no guns, no freedom to express, no real liberty, snitches everywhere, doom and gloom being the daily routine. I know a number of folks like that. Now they are HERE they feel a great sense of joy and freedom… as a boy I’ll bet the ONLY guns he ever saw were in the… Read more »