Midland/Odessa Murderer may have used Homemade Gun

Form 4473
Will Congress Lay the Groundwork for Gun Confiscation

U.S.A.-(Ammoland.com)- The Midland/Odessa Murderer may have used a homemade gun. He was a prohibited possessor under federal law. This offers one explanation for his firing at police officers during the traffic stop. As a prohibited possessor, in possession of a rifle, he would be subject to years in jail.

The Wall Street Journal reports that authorities are investigating a person who may have made the rifle and sold it to the murderer. If the person knew the murderer was prohibited from owning firearms, the sale would be illegal. From the wsj.com:

Law-enforcement officials said they have identified a person of interest they suspect of illegally manufacturing and selling the rifle used in Saturday’s mass shooting in West Texas.

Fox News reports the murderer had been ruled mentally unfit to possess a firearm. from foxnews.com:

The gunman who killed 7 and injured at least 22 others in a West Texas shooting rampage on Labor Day weekend before he was shot and killed by police was federally banned from owning or buying firearms after a court previously ruled he was mentally unfit to do so, authorities said.

The murderer applied to purchase a gun. He was denied.

“The background check was run through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. The NIC system did work. He applied to get a gun. He was denied a gun,” John Wester, a special agent for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said at a press conference Monday, according to ABC News.

No one followed up to arrest him for illegally attempting to purchase a gun. This is what happens in nearly all denials of gun sales. It is impossible to follow up all denials because many of them are false positives: they prevent people who are legally allowed to have guns from exercising their Second Amendment rights. Many others are simple mistakes, cases where the person has no idea they were a prohibited possessor. If all denials were followed up, the cost in manpower and time would be enormous. It is almost never done.

It has always been legal for people to make their own guns. If they are going to make guns for sale, they are required to have a federal license and to put serial numbers on the guns.

If the firearm used by the murderer in Texas was privately made, it was probably made legally.

If the maker sold it to someone he knew was prohibited from possessing a gun, the sale would be illegal.

It is unknown if the seller knew if the murderer was prohibited from owning a gun. The federal government prohibits private parties from using the NICS system to determine if a person is prohibited or not.

A better solution than NICS would be for the federal government to make available, on the Internet, and by other means, a database containing all people known to be prohibited from owning guns. All gun sellers could access it to determine if a sale would be legal. The system could then issue a unique identifying number which would be a defense that the seller had checked to see if the sale was legal or not.

No information about the firearm would be needed or kept. This type of system has been proposed for a number of years. Alan Korwin refers to it as BIDS, or Blind Identification Database System.

The BIDS system would allow people to check if a person is legally allowed to possess or buy guns. It is relatively unintrusive. It would allow appeals for people who believe they are wrongly included in the database. It would cost far less to maintain and run than the current NICS system.

It is unlikely to pass because it moves power away from the federal government. It moves money away from the federal government. It eliminates the possibility to turn NICS checks into a registration system.

If the firearm used by the murderer was a homemade gun, it shows most of the federal licensing and tracking system is worthless. The cat is out of the bag, the horse fled the barn, and the milk spilled, for 400 years.

People have been making and using their own guns for the entire period.

U.S. Citizens have always been able to make and use their own guns. California passed a law requiring homemade guns to have state-issued serial numbers, starting in 2019. The law is almost certainly unconstitutional.

The entire idea of serial numbers is of severely limited utility. Tracing guns does not aid in solving crimes.  A few guns are returned to people they were stolen from each year. Other than that, virtually no crimes are solved by gun traces.

The current gun trace system, which started with the infamous Gun Control Act of 1968, was a compromise because Congress refused to pass a national registration system. It has been illegal to create a national registration system for decades. Lyndon Johnson wanted one. He did not get it. Instead, he got the useless compromise of the tracing system.

It is time to reform NICS, and switch to BIDS. It will cost less money,  be more effective, and will reduce government control over our lives.


About Dean Weingarten:Dean Weingarten

Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of constitutional carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and recently retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.

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    Alan1018Johnny AngelMackJ Gibbonsfreewill Recent comment authors
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    Alan1018
    Member
    Alan1018

    If you make a rifle it and then sell it you first have to apply to the ATF and pay a $200 tax. You can make all you want for yourself but you can’t sell them.

    Mack
    Member
    Mack

    David Codrea already addressed this two weeks ago here.

    Actual credit goes to Russ Howard and Brian Puckett.

    freewill
    Member
    freewill

    An even better idea is to leave violent people in jail, if theyre deemed a danger to society, they can always use something other than a gun,

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    Now THIS, (Transforming NICS into BIDS) is something that the GOA and 2nd Amendment Foundation should be focusing on and WE, THE PEIPLE should be donating heavily to accomplish this effort!

    Patriot-556
    Member
    Patriot-556

    Background checks are unconstitutional as it is. NOBODY should have to submit to the nanny state for permission to exercise GOD GIVEN constitutional rights. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

    Will
    Member
    Will

    Why in the hell is it so difficult to get an accurate,honest description of the firearms used in these mass shootings ? Law-abiding firearms owners get blamed and punished for what these crazy SOB’s do,can’t we at least know that ?

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Will, only if the case is under investigation should the information be concealed until it reaches the courts / trial. After that it should become public knowledge.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Will, It is so difficult to get an accurate, honest description of the firearms used because reporters do not know shit about anything. Few have even basic knowledge about anything that working people deal with every day, from tire rotation to plumbing.

    toomanyhobbies
    Member
    toomanyhobbies

    “may have used a homemade gun. He was a prohibited possessor under federal law. This offers one explanation for his firing at police officers during the traffic stop. As a prohibited possessor, in possession of a rifle, he would be subject to years in jail.”
    and the Police should have used extreme force to have ended it post haste!

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    Yeah, WTF do you I think the police were doing? Sitting around eating donuts and waiting for the media to show up first so they’ll be able to get their names in the papers?

    You weren’t monitoring the Police radios at the time of this incident are you wouldn’t have been saying something so stupid on a public forum.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    BIDS …Another system to be abused and discriminate with .
    If you made your own gun and it were stolen , would you report it, how would you identify it to Law Enforcement , would you want it back if they found it and were inclined to return it ? If I understand it they would have to put a serial number on it to return it . I guess you could then sell it .

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    You can build a homemade gun regardless if the receiver HAD A SERIAL NUMBER or NOT… if the gun did NOT have a serial number on it and the Builder sold it to someone before obtaining and placing a serial number on it, then the Builder is in violation of federal law!

    Heed the Call-up
    Member
    Heed the Call-up

    I would like to find the federal law or regulation on that. The only federal law I found states that a licensee must have serial numbers or some other marking on their manufactured firearms. I could find no reference to an unlicensed person having a requirement to put a serial number or marking on a firearm he/she built for personal use then later sells. Even the ATF code referenced in this Q&A refers to licensees, not private sellers. The only other reference to that is the link someone put in a comment for a criminal defense attorney, but even that… Read more »

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    IN ADDITION…According to Thomas Brewster Forbes Staff …
    DOJ is demanding names address phone numbers and personal data from Google and Apple .
    Concerning The Obsidian Night Vision rifle scopes . There are suppose to be some 10,000 of you out there !!!! You know who you are and the government wants to know .

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    What ever it is that the gov is after … you all better get it over the the neighbor’s house.

    Firewagon
    Member
    Firewagon

    “The background check was run through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. The NIC system did work. He applied to get a gun. He was denied a gun,” Well now, what tasty ‘blarney’ that is. He was “denied a gun” for why, and the attendant PROSECUTION/follow up resulted in what? Oh yea, these vaunted “Background Checks,” that often identify whacks and even criminals, have a ridiculously low, to non-existent, number prosecuted – as they say, you can look it up! What part of a whack being “denied a gun” legally, prevents them from obtaining one illegally, do these “save… Read more »

    Tionico
    Member
    Tionico

    Dean, did you catch the notice I think earlier this week that a higher up Federal level court has ruled the “suspected terrorist list” unconstitutional? If this is so, surely a list of gun-disabled persons would also be. Thus your BIDS would be unconstitutional in that it maintains a list of “restricted persons” that, in various ways, is accessible to others. You are correct, in that the vast majority of NICS “deny” codes are false positives. WHY? Very simple… they do things as stupid as searching all similar names, and do not link data in separate fields. I have one… Read more »

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Big T …My son in law’s name is followed by IV . you should see the screw ups in just the U S Mail !!! Again U S Government !

    Link
    Member
    Link
    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Tionoco, Uh? First of all you have to focus on the individual purchasers constitutional rights! Secondly, the type, make and serial number of the firearm is NOT entered on the 4473. All the 4473 is, is a worksheet for the seller to punch in identification information to the NICS system to find out whether or not the purchaser is allowed to purchase a firearm, and albeit, the NICS system is flawed, but that is why there is an appeals process and for the individual that does not appeal and fight for their rights obviously doesn’t deserve to enjoy those rights.… Read more »

    Get Out
    Member
    Get Out

    @ Grunt, I’ve seen you state that the type, make and serial number of the firearm is NOT entered on the 4473 before, yet it’s required to be entered on Page 3, Section D, Questions 24-28?

    This form was revised Oct. 2016 and I know from personal experience that the firearm information was included with 4473 I had filled out over 20 years ago. IMOA they know what we have if a 4473 was ever filled out.

    J Gibbons
    Member
    J Gibbons

    Section D, questions 24-28 require the make, model, serial number and caliber/gauge of the firearms being transferred by the FFL.

    JoeUSooner
    Member
    JoeUSooner

    Dave, I think that was the punchline.

    Ryben Flynn
    Member
    Ryben Flynn

    “Law-enforcement officials said they have identified a person of interest they suspect of illegally manufacturing and selling the rifle used in Saturday’s mass shooting in West Texas.” It is not illegal to make a gun unless the person who made it was also a prohibited person. What we don’t know was the gun built with a serialized lower receiver or from an 80% lower. Either way, it is not illegal to sell it, only that a serial number must be engraved if it was an 80% lower. It would only be illegal to sell it if he KNEW or SUSPECTED… Read more »

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Ruben Flynn, why don’t we focus on the facts instead of sending out BS and playing guessing games?

    QUESTION: Can anyone make firearms and sell them?

    ANSWER: With certain exceptions, and subject to any state law that might apply, as long as an individual is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, he or she can make a firearm for personal use. If an individual wants to manufacture and sell firearms, he or she is required to obtain a license, and mark each firearm manufactured in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92. [18 U.S.C. 923(i), 26 U.S.C. 5822]

    UncleT
    Member
    UncleT

    No, we just need to make making guns, reloading Ammo and anything else gun related at home a Red Flag and a felony. – Police State Democrats and Many Republicans

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    Uncle … you chose you’re name well !

    CaptainKerosene
    Member
    CaptainKerosene

    Since the intent is ultimately gun confiscation the BIDS system isn’t likely to get a vote. 30 Years ago an FFL I was applying for part-time employment took my job application and filled out a 4473 in my name and did an employment background check. It was an illegal check. I turned the job down because of low pay. Who ever assembled the gun in question had to get some o the parts from an FFL and pass a NICS check. It is legal to make a gun. What the media avoids is reporting the Federal law in question. Title… Read more »

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    Who is to say the builder didn’t purchase the lower from , say a friend , (legal) then build the rifle with a serial number on it ?

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Oldest, THAT is the question that many of us is waiting to get an answer to!

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @CaptainKerosene, using the Interstate Commerce Clause for an already manufactured and serialized, “firearm” does not comply with the situation… Let’s cut through the BS? QUESTION: Can anyone make firearms and sell them? ANSWER: With certain exceptions, and subject to any state law that might apply, as long as an individual is not prohibited from possessing a firearm, he or she can make a firearm for personal use. If an individual wants to manufacture and sell firearms, he or she is required to obtain a license, and mark each firearm manufactured in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92. [18 U.S.C. 923(i), 26… Read more »

    Stubob40
    Member
    Stubob40

    Here’s some food for thought… We are carrying a smart id drivers license that could easily be adapted for use in purchasing guns(already needed by ffl) thus eliminating the need for 4473 and phone call…

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Stubob40, there’s even more food for thought why not just carry a copy of the United States Constitution in your pocket? You know, the one that has, “Shall NOT be infringed.” in it? Most people don’t realize that back in the day if you committed a felony or a heinous crime of such you would be hung or shot, thereby eliminating the worry of “shall not be infringed” because you chose to give up your right as well as your life! if we return to that system we wouldn’t have so many problems. Felons wouldn’t be spending life on death… Read more »

    willyd
    Member
    willyd

    USMCo351; How true, I had a friend that was murdered in 1996, the scum that did it are still living on DEATH ROW in PA yet, my friend has been dead for 23 years and the scum are still alive, where is the justice? My idea is you get convicted, you get 2 appeals, one to the STATE SUPREME COURT, then One to the US SUPREME COURT, upon that ruling transported to the table for elimination of the problem, and no more of a tax burden on the G Q PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Stub… remember a few years ago they wanted to use our S S number as a national I D number . Maybe you are too young . Imagine the problems you would be having now with let’s just say credit fraud now . Stop and think of all that could be accessed with your D L #.

    RoyD
    Member
    RoyD

    I remember having my SS # as my drivers license number. Now it is a random generated number. I also remember when the military went from a “service number” to using your SS number and then went back to a “service number.”

    Darren
    Member

    Not bad, Dean. A better idea would be for the govt to get out of the gun regulating business completely. Let the NRA do something useful, for a change, & run a BIDS system for a fee. There could even be competing BIDS systems. Who knows what the free market would come up with.

    Another group that might oppose BIDS is FFLs. By making private sales easier they would lose business. BTW, we should end the govt FFL system too. Private certification systems & insurance requirements are a better idea.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    Shall not be infringed settles it all !

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Darren, the NRA can’t even run itself. At this point I doubt the NRA could run a pay toilet?

    Darren
    Member

    @Grunt I disagree. The NRA would run the most profitable pay toilet in the world. Similar to the way they operate now they would advertise it as a massage parlor & fools would flock to give them money even though all they get is crap from them.

    To explain the joke, the NRA advertises itself as a gun rights organization. In reality it is a gun control organization. Certainly a moderate one compared to the gun grabbers but advocate gun control the NRA does.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Darren they would be sending you letters saying we can’t keep the toilet open with out your money !!

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    List’s, list’s , list’s why is everyone so caught up on lists? Murphy’s law says if anything bad can happen it will . Why give the gov and or scam artists any more information than they have ?

    Vanns40
    Member
    Vanns40

    Two points: 1. “….If they are going to make guns for sale, they are required to have a federal license and to put serial numbers on the guns…..” As far as I know only part of this is true. If you make a firearm for your own use and later decide to sell it you are required to engrave certain information on it BUT, you are NOT required to have an FFL. This comes under what is known as an occasional sale and also does not fall under ATF’s manufacturing statutes since you didn’t originally start out making the gun… Read more »

    24and7
    Member
    24and7

    Everytime they have a false flag, they find a new angle to promote “Universal registration”.. the focus has shifted from people with Mental Health issues to private firearm sales.. the shooter legally purchasing his firearm didn’t catch on.. so now all shooting incidents will be blamed on Private Sales.. have you ever noticed how the media always harps on the same issues at the same time ? The main thing they want to eliminate is Private Sales… and making weapons from spare parts.. they’re using propaganda to build big brother and the nanny state..

    Magnum
    Member
    Magnum

    Just my opinion but BIDS sounds like another bad idea to fix a bad idea.

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Magnum, had the United States stayed the course of hanging or shooting the felons we would not have this problem. This may sound cold to the pampered,complacent, sheep, however, it also deters other people from becoming felons.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Grunt… AMEN

    Johnny Angel
    Member
    Johnny Angel

    I like the way you think, Grunt! Ooh Rah!

    AfghanVet11_12
    Member
    AfghanVet11_12

    I’m not sure I agree entirely with the BIDS idea, it is something I have never heard of until now. I do agree it would be a lot better than the current NICS. The problem this raises is that someone’s name is linked to a database that is freely accessible. This opens up avenues for abuse and discrimination. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no liberal here, but, any system that links a person or person information to a database and is related to firearms in any way stands to be abused heavily if not guarded by some kind failsafe. Perhaps… Read more »

    Operator Z
    Member
    Operator Z

    A blind system is definitely worth looking at. No one needs to know what activities people are involved in.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Z …Man you counterdicted yourself in two sentences .

    Darren
    Member

    Requiring people to be armed is as much a rights violation as gun control. It’ll only lead to other problems & maintains govt control of firearms. Who is going to pay for all these guns to be issued anyway?

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, I don’t think that the Bill of Rights requires one to be armed. Maybe we could use the draft law. The local school board could require gun safety as part of the curriculum. As to paying, well the taxpayer would pay, of course. Would that be any worse than the other things that the government wastes money on?

    Huapakechi
    Member
    Huapakechi

    In my opinion, gun safety should be a mandatory class both in grade school and H.S.

    KenW
    Member
    KenW

    The state hunter safety course should be required curriculum.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    Some schools in Kansas do . I taught for 25 years .

    Darren
    Member

    WB, I think you missed the point I was making. I’m for gun freedom. That includes the right not to be armed if that’s how one wants to go.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, With all due respect. I did not miss your point. I rejected your point. The Second Amendment does not include any verbiage about being free from carrying arms. So where do you get that?
    I have never once read anyone assert the the Second Amendment enshrined a right to be free from arms, except yourself. Is there some Constitutional scholar that is advocating a so called right to be free from firearms?

    Darren
    Member

    WB, “except yourself” you wrote. That’s my point, we can’t force people to bear arms. Even when there were militias there were exemptions for religious objectors. The Quakers come to mind. On the other hand, the 2A is about preventing the govt from having standing forces. Elbridge Gerry argued this on the house floor: “What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now, it must be evident, that, under this provision, together with their other powers, Congress could take such measures with respect to a militia,… Read more »

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, I am trying to be diplomatic. I am familiar with what you have written. Does any bona fide Constitutional Scholar assert that there is a Right to be free from bearing arms enshrined in the Second Amendment?
    Conscientious objectors usually seek protection in the First Amendment.

    Darren
    Member

    “As to paying, well the taxpayer would pay, of course. Would that be any worse than the other things that the government wastes money on?”

    Yes, there are many things the govt shouldn’t spend on. It would be best not to add another corrupt boondoggle. We want to roll the govt back not increase it.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, that is something that I can agree with you about!

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    @Wild Bill, the schools could have an Armory which would be a one-time purchase on firearms for such classes and reduce the cost to taxpayers over the years. The only problem cuz that would be finding confident principal, vice principal and teachers to be RESPONSIBLE and ACCOUNTABLE to operate the armory and safely run the safety classes. Which, all could actually be done by a licensed Firearms instructor working for the school district.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Grunt, Yes, they could. We need to recapture the school boards.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Grunt… In Kansas we have a police officer called a , School Resource officer , they get to know the kids on a first name basis . Why wouldn’t that be the person to operate what you suggest .

    Huapakechi
    Member
    Huapakechi

    Kennesaw GA did it, and their crime rate is markedly less than “greater Atlanta” or the nation as a whole. They simply “require” (not enforced) each household to have a gun.
    https://www.areavibes.com/kennesaw-ga/crime/

    Darren
    Member

    @Huapakechi regardless of the good short term results requiring people to have guns is a violation of their rights. Just like the 1A protects free speech it doesn’t require one to speak. The 2A doesn’t require one to be armed.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, It is true that our civil/natural, individual rights enumerated in the Second Amendment do not require us to be armed, but that is not the same as saying the Second Amendment includes a “…right not to be armed…”
    Look to the First, Fourth, or Ninth Amendments.

    Darren
    Member

    WB how about the 10th Amendment. The CONstitution doesn’t delegate the power to compel us to be armed to the govt.

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Darren, the Tenth Amendment is the police power of the States. That is how about it.
    Compelling you to be armed is called … the draft!

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    lets start with bloomberg and sosos the dems are saying tax the rich anyway

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Darren… Check out Sweeden . If memory serves they are required to be armed forces reserves and keep a firearm . I think a ride if I am correct .

    Darren
    Member

    Oldvet, you mean the place next to Noorway? You probably mean Switzerland.

    USMC0351Grunt
    Member

    How about, “DON’T BREAK THE LAW” brain-washing at an early age, at home between mother AND father AT THE DINNER TABLE and a leather belt to your ass to keep you in line if you happen to stray until you get the point(s)?

    Wild Bill
    Member
    Wild Bill

    @Grunt, some are more hard headed than others, but better done in the home by parents than later by the criminal justice system.

    Oldvet
    Member
    Oldvet

    @Grunt… Did you happen to know my father?