Did Shelter in Place Save Lives or Cost Them?

Ruthless Forces U.S. Seek To Bring Down President Donald Trump and Our Nation, iStock-1213378005
Did Shelter in Place Save Lives or Cost Them?, iStock-1213378005

U.S.A. –-(Ammoland.com)- Covid-19 might kill 100 thousand of us in the US, but maybe not. We still have hope that it will kill far fewer. What we do know is that putting 200 million people under a relaxed house-arrest costs lives too. We have to ask if shelter-in-place saved lives or cost them. Who gets to decide that more young addicts committing suicide was worth it in order to have fewer old people die in nursing homes?

You want us to do what?

The entire discussion rests on shifting definitions. At first, we were told to “flatten the curve”, and that made sense. The mortality rate from the virus and from every other disease would skyrocket if our hospitals were overwhelmed and couldn’t take new patients. Fortunately, we flattened the curve really well. Once our medical facilities had some breathing room, then shelter in place didn’t save lives.

That is when some politicians announced that we needed to keep the disease from spreading. Diseases like this coronavirus are not easily contained. They spread as easily as the common cold, since many cold viruses are also coronaviruses. Did those orders serve a public health goal, or were they serving a political goal of putting the politicians in front of the news cameras? There isn’t data that they saved lives.

Died with the virus or because of the virus?

To make the entire question harder to understand, we also starting fudging the numbers. You might already know that many men die with prostate cancer, but not from prostate cancer. It is unclear how we should record it when a person who has several diseases and only a few years left to live dies with the coronavirus. Some deaths were recorded as being from the novel coronavirus while the patient could also have died from the seasonal flu which caused similar symptoms. The early numbers have large error-bars and overcounted the lethality of Covid-19.

We made the illness worse.

We’ve seen some very strange information coming from New York City. One bad practice was to move seriously ill patients with the virus to nursing homes to recover. These patients no longer needed critical care in a hospital, but they remained infectious. Many residents of these nursing homes are elderly people who are very vulnerable to the virus. That may explain the unusually high number of deaths that we saw among old people in New York city while we didn’t see that rate of lethality in other cities.

There are other medical costs.

Telling a hundred million people to stay home has secondary effects that go way beyond toilet paper. We told people with serious health problems to avoid medical treatment so we could make room for the flood of Covid patients. That flood never came. Instead, we had people die of heart failure or of cancer while they waited for medical treatment. Treating the entire USA the way we treated New York City was a mistake.

Does social distancing save lives?

It isn’t clear that mandated social distancing and shutting down schools and businesses actually saved lives. Sweden and South Dakota never issued stay-at-home orders. Their rates of infection were not much different from other states. Some were better, and some were worse. Japan had extraordinary success by isolating their vulnerable population and issuing voluntary health recommendations.

It is hard to measure the benefits of lockdown. It is relatively easy to estimate the costs.

Isolation is dangerous.

There are a number of other fragile populations that politicians put at risk with lockdowns. As of yet, we don’t know the cost in human lives. We kept mental health patients from seeing their therapists. We kept addicts from attending their support meetings. We know that a regular schedule helps people keep their life on an even keel. Feeling useful at your job helps you feel like your life matters. People adapt, and therapists and addicts developed schemes to work around the edicts for social distancing. We don’t know how many more people relapsed or committed suicide because stay-at-home orders removed their support network. We do know that we made more addicts and more suicides.

The human cost of unemployment.

Politicians put 15 million people out of work. That increased the unemployment rate by 8.2 percent. Earlier, we’ve seen the opioid death rate increase by 3.6 percent for each percent increase in the unemployment rate. We had about 114 thousand people die in 2018 from drug overdose and suicides. That number increases to about 192 thousand when we include deaths due to alcohol. If deaths due to alcohol abuse and suicide are as sensitive to unemployment as drug overdose deaths, then government mandated lockdowns might have killed an additional 57 thousand people. We’re not sure yet, and I hope it is less. Far less.

That doesn’t mean that mandatory stay at home orders failed. It means we have to see about a 40 percent reduction in the rate of death due to Covid-19 after states and counties impose lockdowns, or else the stay at home orders could cost more lives than they saved. We’re not seeing that sort of reduction in illness yet.

Other people with a sharper pencil will generate more accurate numbers than I have. This quick glance is enough to know us we have to be careful. Social isolation costs lives and is only justified once we have evidence it actually reduces deaths from Covid-19.

Until we have that evidence, shelter-in-place orders are political theater.


About Rob MorseSlow Facts

The original article with references is here. Rob Morse writes about gun rights at Ammoland, at Clash Daily, and on his SlowFacts blog. He hosts the Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast and co-hosts the Polite Society Podcast. Rob was an NRA pistol instructor and combat handgun competitor.

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RoyD
RoyD
1 year ago

Sorry, haven’t read many of the posts here. My sister-in-law, who is a young 60 years old and of the liberal bent, wears a mask everywhere, wears gloves when shopping, and cleans her hands constantly. Not me or my wife. Kind of reminds me of those who carry a tricked out handgun that they can deploy in a quarter second and deliver a double tap head shot at 25 yards in under one second, and practice incessantly to maintain that level of proficiency, and yet they live in an area where there hasn’t been a serious crime attempted in the… Read more »

The other Jim
The other Jim
1 year ago

I think it is because the Ammoland Employee who was to review the comments to be posted is working at home due to the Chi Comm Virus. But instead of reviewing and posting the comments they started making their spaghetti sauce.. chopping the garlic and onions, doing another coat of spackle, painting their house, etc. and never got to reviewing the Ammoland comments to be posted. So at the end of the day they just charged 8 hours to Ammoland On-Job Work, and deleted the comments that they were to review and Post.

a.x. perez
a.x. perez
1 year ago

It would have been nice if someone could draw graph showing how many people would die of cv-19 over time if lock down ends ln a certain date and how many will die of lock down if it continues past that date. We could end lock down on dates that would spare most lives.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  a.x. perez

.x. perez, What’s the point? Nobody here believes in that anyway. It is easier to follow some discredited anti-vaxxer quack than to look at those numbers.

Also, wear a mask when in public indoor settings, weak a mask outdoors if you are in a crowd, wash your hands regularly and properly, and limit touching your face. With these simple things, we can hold this virus back and get our economy going. No lockdown needed!

Here are some of the models, if you are interested. Look for the May 13 and 14 updates: https://covid19-projections.com

Jeremy B.
Jeremy B.
1 year ago

When nearly 3,000 US citizens were killed we started wars in Afghanistan and Iraq killing nearly 7,000 Americans.

By the end of June we’ll have 100,000 dead in the US. Will you soldier up and wear a mask in public?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy B.

B, what are you asking me for? I have been wearing a mask for two months and have been advocating for wearing a mask on Ammoland!

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago

@CF – Uncertainty bars would render such graphs next to useless, however @axp makes a good point in that clear presentation of numbers given what we know know and for various conjectures should be used to drive decisions. At this point we still have so little info that this falls into realm of empirical science rather than engineering. Remember “all models are wrong, but many are useful”. Keep hearing people who think that when models do not predict the future perfectly, or when adjustments are made, that it means that modelers don’t know what they are doing. That is similar… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Finnky

, I agree, but we will not get any better predictions anytime soon. Remember that we still have “spaghetti” models for hurricanes and nobody is ignoring those models.

JIAZ
JIAZ
1 year ago

I actually enjoy “socializing” from a distance.;)

Jeremy B.
Jeremy B.
1 year ago
Reply to  JIAZ

Is than Ben Avery? I miss AZ.

Choogie
Choogie
1 year ago

If you want to find out about this Political Flu Pandemic you should go to News With Views National and check out Reference Guide to Debunking the Political Flu Pandemic. You will learn more there about this flu than most any other place. You will see just what a crock of dung this pandemic really is.

Jeremy B.
Jeremy B.
1 year ago
Reply to  Choogie

This “political flu pandemic” has killed more than 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pearl Harbor combined.

Is that a “Crock of dung”?

Wear a mask in public and wash your hands!

Tionico
Tionico
1 year ago

has anyone here ever heard any GOVERNMENT entity passing along any recommendations as to whcih common inexpensive dietary supplements one is advised to take to strangthen one’s own immune system to enable it to fight off this virus WHEN it comes your way? For about a buck or two a day, one can easily strengthen their own body to naturally beat this thing when it comes. And none of the supplements have any side effects of note, excelt in extremely rare conditions. WHERE is Fauci, or Birx, telling us what steps WE can take at home for pennies that will… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Tionico

, the only thing you mention is vitamin C. Do you know of anything else?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Tionico

, Bingo! People with Vitamin D deficiency have shown to have a more severe outcome. I have been taking additional Vitamin D since early March!

Having said that, I got that advice from doctors and scientists and not from anti-vaxxers and quacks, so take that advice with caution. It does not have the typical conservative stamp of approval.

https://youtu.be/Bga_qG30JyY

PS: I am looking into Zinc Picolinate as well, also on the advice from doctors and scientists.

Jeremy B.
Jeremy B.
1 year ago
Reply to  Tionico

Is this a joke? If vitamins saved people from Covid (or any other medical malady) don’t you think thousands of doctors would be screaming about it on the news?

Instead we only hear about it from “Dr” Oz and Alex Jones.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy B.

B., watch the video I posted above. Vitamin deficiency is a known comorbidity for many diseases. Also, intravenous vitamin C is part of the COVID-19 treatment protocol at many hospitals in the US and around the world. As I said, I got that advice from doctors and scientists and not from anti-vaxxers and quacks.

The Possible Role of Vitamin D in Suppressing Cytokine Storm and Associated Mortality in COVID-19 Patients
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.08.20058578v3

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@CF, intravenous? So, you make a doctors office visit exposing yourself to all kinds of thing or do self-intravenous. Does your health insurance pay for all those vitamin C office visits?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, read the paper I posted below, before embarrassing yourself. And, no, you are not making doctors office visits when you are infected with COVID-19. You will be going to a hospital! There are several intravenous vitamin C trials for treating COVID-19 going on in the US right now and health insurance is covering it!

Swing and miss!

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

CF, giving orders again?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, Nope, just pointing out your embarrassing post and that you simply do not know what you are talking about. That’s all!

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

, while you two are just here to troll me, I actually read the scientific papers that are being published on this topic. You two can ridicule me all you want, but the fact is that US and other hospitals do use intravenous vitamin C and health insurance is covering it.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

, I have posted scientific papers and other verifiable sources to back up my claims. All I get in return are ad hominem attacks and ridicule by people who just regurgitate the talking points of others and do not know the political agenda behind them.

It seems, virtue signaling has become the norm in our community (which is what I pointed out the last time we had a clash like this). Reason and facts are going out of the window, because of pure politics and propaganda.

Sad, very sad!

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

, Drive careful, bro.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

, He thinks that we come to Ammoland just to troll him. What an ego. I had to laugh when I read that one!
I bet that people come to his house, from miles around, just to sit at his feet and hear what he has to say. Haaa, haa, haa, ha.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

and @Wild Bill, just like the last time a thread on this topic blew up!

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

As I said before: He’s a legend in his own mind. 🙂

Knute
Knute
1 year ago

Will: I can answer that one. CF is unable to stop. His zealotry will not allow it. The same as all religious fundamentalists. Logic, reason, facts, knowledge, they simply don’t matter to these ones. Fundamentalists (of any and ALL religions) have replaced these things with blind faith.
It’s the lazy man’s way out. No need to think, only repeat. 🙂

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

WB: As per his usual practice. Charlie is a legend in his own mind! 🙂

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy B.

B.:

Can early and high intravenous dose of vitamin C prevent and treat coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590098620300154

Papa
Papa
1 year ago

Wearing a mask now in public even for short periods is giving me headaches,dizziness,weakness,racing heart beat. Watch out for other side effects. I stopped wearing a mask now. Staying at home is healthier for me

Choogie
Choogie
1 year ago
Reply to  Papa

Hey Papa, check out the Blaze – To Mask or not to Mask. Take it off. It will cause you more harm than it will ever do you any good.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Papa

, you may want to get checked out by a doctor if you are having problems while wearing a mask.

Wearing an N95 mask all day may cause some minor issues, but wearing a cloth mask doesn’t. Even before the pandemic, we had millions of people wearing N95 masks for most of the day and people didn’t die from that!

Reading crap posted by anti-vaxxers and quacks may give you headaches!

loveaduck
loveaduck
1 year ago

Masks do tend to fog up eyeglasses.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, just because someone does not subscribe to your non-sense does not make them anti-vaxxers and quacks. I believe something happened to you in isolation. You used to have more rational posts. Since the virus quarantine, you appear to have gone off the rails and began smoking the government’s crack.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, the following from the original post: “wearing a mask now in public even for short periods is giving me headaches, dizziness, weakness, racing heart beat.” is absolute and utter nonsense that is pushed by anti-vaxxers and quacks. There is not a single scientific study that says that and common sense even tells you this is nonsense. Millions of Americans have been wearing various face masks each day for work, like nurses, doctors and construction workers. Many ski in winter at above 10,000 feet and wear a face mask to protect themselves from the cold. You have been… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, I have not been duped, as I have not followed the propaganda. What I have done, which you should do, is go to the source and read and research – namely the CDC and the WHO – that is where I get my information.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, then you would have no problem posting your source on the dangers of masks, right?

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, read my posts. Where have I ever mentioned that? What I did state is that a simple cloth mask or other covering that the government tells us to wear is not effective, as you pointed out by wearing an N95 mask. If a simple cloth covering were effective, I suspect you’d be wearing that, not the N95 mask that you state that you do wear. Again, you have deflected and not explained why you have gone off the rails about this virus, when in the past you have always appeared to post rational comments. Here you have railed against… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, you are replying to a discussion on the dangers of masks. The quote is from the original post. If you don’t support the original post and its statements, then you should state that! Masks have two different purposes: (1) protect you from others and (2) protect others from you. Filtration technology, like in N95 masks, only matters to protect you from others. Most masks can protect others from you! Note that there are N95 masks that have an exhale valve, those are designed to protect the wearer from others, but less the others from the wearer. The… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, I have one post in moderation that you will have to wait for.

This is where the “masks are dangeous” nonsense came from: Neurosurgeon Says Face Masks Pose Serious Risk to Healthy People – https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2020/05/14/neurosurgeon-says-face-masks-pose-serious-risk-to-healthy-people-n392431

see next post for background info on Russell Blaylock.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, again you are deflecting. I never claimed that masks are dangerous. Address my concerns about you. That is mostly what my posts have been about. I couldn’t give a rat’s -ss about Russell Blaylock. Never heard of him, until your post, and I still don’t care. I told you the source of my information several times, none of those sources are him. Neither are they the US president, my Governor, or any other politician or doctor, other than the CDC and WHO. Why are you deflecting my questions and posting non-sense in reply? What has changed in you to… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, I just gave you the name of the anti-vaxxer and quack that started the recent unscientific idea that masks are dangerous for a 30-minute store visit. That idea was repeated here in this forum several times, including in the original post of this discussion thread. That’s why I said that those people that repeat that idea are getting their information from anti-vaxxers and quacks. Is that too difficult to understand? Cloth masks are efficient in stopping an infected person from infecting others. We have been using that concept literally for over 100 years. It was used to… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@Cluster Funk, you ask, “Is that too difficult to understand?” It is not to difficult to understand. It is just that it came from you. You have alienated everyone, so badly, with your constant insults, that it is not even pleasant to agree with you.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, why are you inserting yourself here?

From Heed the Call-up’s first reply here: “I believe something happened to you in isolation. You used to have more rational posts. Since the virus quarantine, you appear to have gone off the rails and began smoking the government’s crack.”

But, yeah, I am the one insulting people. LOL. Heed the Call-up literally insulted me with his first reply!

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, I was late to the conversation, and had read all the posts, including your non-stop claims that everyone is against you and that we are all anti-vaxxers and quacks – not a rational claim. I also remarked how you do not appear to be acting rationally, unlike how you used to post here. You have yet to address my concern about your mental health. Your posts of late are like the Leftist trolls we occasionally get here – psychotic – not like your posts prior to this virus quarantine. I am sure that the rest of us here are… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@CF, “Why?”, you ask. Because you invite it. It would be impolite not to accept.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, keep trolling! That is what you are really good at! That is why you inserted yourself here! I certainly didn’t invite you! LOL

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@Cluster Funk, Nor are you in charge of who corresponds to whom.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, again, you are not addressing my posts. You are actively not responding to my questions, a means of posting that is typically used by anti-right Leftists. You again are claiming that those that disagree with you are anti-vaxxers and quacks, again, neither of which I am, nor have I stated that I believe that, nor have I even read such. I have only read your claims about people like that. None this (about masks) addresses the heart of my posts. But keep posting non-sense and deflecting, you are not convincing anyone with you attacks.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, you have generalized my posts to make a personal attack. That’s all. No, I do not claim that those that disagree with me are anti-vaxxers and quacks! You are always free to quote my posts and make your case if I actually said that! You are evading my question: Do you believe in the over 100-year old and scientifically proven practice of wearing a cloth mask to stop the spread and the current guidance of the CDC and WHO? After all, that is what we are discussing in the thread that you have inserted yourself. Do you… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, my posts have had nothing to do with masks, so I have no reason to answer your question regarding such. You interjected a link to someone you claim is a quack, when my posts had zero to do with him, who I was not even aware until you mentioned him, nor have I bothered to check that link, because, as I told you, I don’t give a rat’s -ass about his opinion. This your post in reply to those with which you disagree: “Reading crap posted by anti-vaxxers and quacks may give you headaches!” So, yes, you have called… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, “Reading crap posted by anti-vaxxers and quacks may give you headaches!” is calling those that I disagree with me anti-vaxxers and quacks? Wow, you have quite some twisted logic here! @Papa was posting something that an anti-vaxxer and quack wrote. @Papa was saying that wearing a mask may give you headaches. My response to that was: “Reading crap posted by anti-vaxxers and quacks may give you headaches!” And you think that I called @Papa an anti-vaxxer and quack? You do realize that if you had quoted me properly in your first reply that I would have told… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, of course you will call me wrong, I stated as such in my post. We all believe there is something wrong with you. Have you not been reading the posts? You: “It is easier to follow some discredited anti-vaxxer quack than to look at those numbers.” “As I said, I got that advice from doctors and scientists and not from anti-vaxxers and quacks.” “That’s why I said that those people that repeat that idea are getting their information from anti-vaxxers and quacks.” “I am not following the advice of any people that just have a political agenda, like anti-vaxxers… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, so now that I have shown that your very first post in this thread was making false assumptions and only included personal attacks, you continue with quoting my posts out of context to construct yet another personal attack. LOL. Yes, I am discrediting other people’s posts, because their arguments don’t make much sense. After all, you are discrediting my posts, because you don’t think they make sense. There is nothing wrong with that! However, you have posted that I supposedly called some posters here anti-vaxxers and quacks, which is an entirely made up argument by you. I… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, I have not taken your posts out of context. I quoted your statements exactly as you posted them. You can claim what you want, but those are your statements. You are not the fount of knowledge. Your posts have implied others are anti-vaxxers, quacks and/or stupid for not agreeing you. You don’t win arguments by calling others stupid, or implying that. There is no reason for me to provide what my opinion on face masks is, you have your opinion, and you believe that is all that matters and everyone else is wrong. As I have repeatedly told you,… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, thank you for confirming that all you came here to do today was to launch personal attacks. If you can’t see the difference between calling SOURCES anti-vaxxers and quacks and POSTERS, that is your problem. I guess I hit a nerve there!

Since you agree with the CDC and the WHO, you pretty much agree with me on the topic that was being discussed here and disagree with most of the posters here.

I guess I will see more personal attacks and not a real discussion of the topic at hand.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, no, I did not come here to launch personal attacks. I posted facts (with links) that, again, you chose to ignore. It seems you would rather play victim than engage in discussion.

Your comments were not discussions of facts, but claims that you are right, while calling others that had differing opinions stupid. We all have read your posts and all came, separately, to that same conclusion. So, if we are all so stupid and cannot comprehend your wisdom, why are you still here?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up Which links have you posted? Feel free to point those out to me!

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, no, just read the posts, unlike you, have no need to post the same things ad nauseam. Could it be that your quoted scientists and doctors are wrong? Maybe if you were not so convinced you are right, you wouldn’t be so blind. Again, there is no value in continuing this discussion. You have made yourself quite clear. We are all idiots who, even if we have not viewed, listened to, nor read, these “anti-vaxxers and quacks” opinions, we clearly subscribe to their opinions, even if we derived our knowledge from the CDC and the WHO. You claimed Papa… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, LOL, you haven’t posted any links! That’s why I asked! LOL Your last post was misleading at best, lying at worst. The anti-vaxxer and quack I posted was responsible for several news articles that argued the idiocy that you get headaches and pass out from wearing a mask. It was purposely misleading the readers by using an actual scientific study and putting into the wrong context. This argument can be taken apart using common sense! This anti-vaxxer’s argument was prominently posted on many news outlets, especially conservative outlets. If you don’t understand how wearing a mask stops… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, LOL, yes, I have, two CDC web pages. Keep reading sycophant.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago

Heed: It’s the religious fervor. Such ones CAN be rational, but only when their dogma is not involved. But as soon as their dogma button gets pushed, the fervor takes over. Rationality goes away, in favor of repeating the dogma over and over. With CF, his god is a few papers on the virus, and repeating them over and over is his dogma. The symptoms are many, including his utter refusal to discuss anything other than his own few sources. IOWs, his dogma. His trait of always insulting any that question the dogma, the deflection back to the dogma, the… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Knute

, a post full of insults! Wow, just wow, how low people will go!

Knute
Knute
1 year ago

CF: So you think that a post describing mammalian brain function is a personal insult directed against you, but you don’t say a word about the other guy on the thread calling you “cluster funk”? 🙂
You prove my point, exactly as previously stated: devoid of logic and/or reason.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago
Reply to  Knute

, Actually, what I call him is better than the name that he chose for himself. Also devoid of ordinary manners and courtesy.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

Oh, I completely agree. I can see no sense in mixing up the old and the new phonetics alphabets that way. What is he trying to imply there? That he’s been in BOTH Operation Overlord (June ’44) AND the LaTrang Valley? A rather doubtful claim, but I could accept that he BELIEVES that! He IS the legend in his own mind, after all. For all I know he might think he’s Napoleon, Eisenhower, and Mel Gibson all at once! Once one gets this irrational, anything is possible. 🙂 I was only trying to point out to the great irrational one… Read more »

Degforyou
Degforyou
1 year ago
Reply to  Papa

Amen!!! but mine prescription glasses.

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago
Reply to  Papa

– Often have the same problem. Important to realize that if glasses are fogging up, you are wearing the mask wrong. It means that when you exhale air is going around the mask rather than through. Still doing a lot of good, but far from optimum.

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago
Reply to  Finnky

@USA – Big as my belly is, I don’t believe I’d fit under my bed. Don’t believe I’m particularly fearful or overreacting to anything. As for the muzzle, I grew comfortable wearing a bandana over my face when skiing as a child. Going downhill at midlin speed (<60) in subzero temps with snow and ice blowing in one's face is more comfortable with some form of skin protection. Never had a metabolism high enough to be comfortable sleeping naked in a snowbank. Agree that excessive "dead air" space can be detrimental if your tidal volume is insufficient, however "muzzle" volume… Read more »

Tionico
Tionico
1 year ago

And no, “social distancing” and the stupid worse than useless masks are NOT efective in preventing the spread of this virus. The cloth jokes most mokes spread across their mugs have been proven in extensive testing to PASS 97% of pathogens exhaled by the wearer, and that’s at best when they are new, clean, and fresh. Wear it for two hours (if yuo can stand it) and they are signficantly less efective than the already near useless. Go find your own studies, they are out there. Even the official surgical masks are not fully effective. They must be changed ffrequentely,… Read more »

Tionico
Tionico
1 year ago

“flatten the curve”? WHAT curve? I knew when that barmy bit of nonsense was first floated it was bogus. Just as I did the announcements that all “non urgent” or ‘non critical” hospital proceedures would be cancelled. Friend of mine was set for some badly needed heart surgery last arch. He is STILL waiting and struggling His daughter is a nurse, working in the facility where he was scheduled. SHE says they are sereiously short of things to do.. no customers. Meanwhile her Dad sits home in quarantine no critical surgery. Sehcdule stuff, then IF all the beds start filllng… Read more »

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago
Reply to  Tionico

– Did no one utilize the courts? They exist for a reason and can often be useful. Certainly a strong case could be made for emergency injunction. Otherwise arm all the older residents and let them fight for their lives.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago
Reply to  Tionico

Tionico, I feel fairly confident that putting them there was planned, knowing that it would kill many of them. They need the numbers of dead to “justify” their destruction of the economy. It also serves them, since many there receive the extended Medicare payments that states now have to pay for. Killing them off saves the state millions per patient – the expected result of “socialized” medicine, the death of the “unwanted/unneeded”.

reno
reno
1 year ago

masks do not stop the spread of the WUHAN CHINESE VIRUS
DEMOCRATS HAVE KILLED MORE PEOPLE WITH THEIR POLICIES OFSHELTER IN PLACE AND PUTTING SICK PEOPLE IN NURSING HOMES
THE GOVERNORS OF NEW YORK, MASSACHUSETTS, NEW JERSEY, ILLINOIS, AND KALIFORNICA SHOU;D BE RECALLED AND ARRESTED

Choogie
Choogie
1 year ago
Reply to  reno

reno, you left out Virginia but yes I agree. Personally I have read much about this flu pandemic and many Dr.’s say that this flu is no worse than flu that gets passed around every year and the Political Pandemic is a Farce.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  reno

, Does that mean doctors and nurses no longer need to wear masks when performing surgery?

John Dow
John Dow
1 year ago

I saw a study that purports the number of cumulative years people will live less due to the stress of all this will add up to more than the number of years lost to the disease.

When all the numbers are in, expect to see markedly higher suicide rates for this year.

Pa John
Pa John
1 year ago

Want some NEW internet speculation to consider? Here is something I have yet to see, hear or read about anywhere else: Recently it was reported that 66% of all new Covid-19 infection cases in NYC were people who were sheltering at home. 2 out of 3 new Covid-19 infection cases are people who are staying home? How can that be? Well, “staying home” certainly implies they all have houses or apartments to stay in, and one thing all home addresses have in common are mailboxes (or mail slots in their front doors). That’s right, the U.S. MAIL. People are sitting… Read more »

Papa
Papa
1 year ago
Reply to  Pa John

No its not speculation. So much stuff out there to read. You got to believe in something. Can’t watch the evening news anymore I know I’m only getting (fake news)

Choogie
Choogie
1 year ago
Reply to  Papa

FAKE NEWS INDEED !!!

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago
Reply to  Pa John

John – Those statistics can be seen as example that it is working. If 95% are sheltering in place and 66% of new cases are among those 95% – it means that 34% of new cases are among the 5% not sheltering in place. Thus those not “sheltering” are becoming infected at roughly six times the rate. Far from perfect, but certainly sounds like an improvement to me.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago
Reply to  Finnky

Finnky, 95% are not “sheltering in place”. Probably 95% are still going outside. People still go to stores to shop for food and go to other places that are “allowed” to remain open, such as, in Virginia, Alcohol stores, which are all state owned and run.

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago

@Heed – Sorry, forgot to emphasis the weasel words. IF 95% are sheltering – was not meant as a statement that I believe 95% of people are not leaving their homes. Just pointing out that those who “believe” can take any statistic as support for their position. A single number in isolation is not proof of anything.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago
Reply to  Finnky

100%.

gregs
gregs
1 year ago

dying with and of the Wuhan virus has seriously inflated rates of deaths. what about the increased number of suicides by people who have no job, income, social interaction, children starving, domestic abuse victims who cannot get away from their abuser with the lockdown. no government employee has lost their paycheck, yet tens of millions of civilians have. their models have been so wrong as to be unusable/worthless. their advise on masks, social contact, and every other marker has been totally wrong. why do these sheeple or lemmings not think for themselves. they have the entire collective knowledge of humanity… Read more »

Tionico
Tionico
1 year ago
Reply to  gregs

whaddya speck from the illions of individual products of the gummit skewlz we’ve cranked out over the past two generations? Don’t think, just shut up and listen, and DO what WE tell you to do. Don’t reason, just DO. WE are your betters, WE know, so TRUST US. Thanks all the same, I was raised under a fery different ethic, and refuse to swallow that. I was raised to reason things out, reseach a matter, inform myself, weigh the columns of information, then make a decision and MOVE ahead…. monitoring the situation and making adjustments as the thing progresses. I… Read more »

Choogie
Choogie
1 year ago
Reply to  gregs

gregs, you are absolutely right. Check out News With Views National – Reference guide to Debunking the Political Flu Pandemic.

Ryben Flynn
Ryben Flynn
1 year ago

I read stories of Hospitals with few or no patients and the workers were furloughed and one Hospital closed its doors because no patients. We were hoaxed as to how bad the virus is. 80,000 deaths barely surpasses the deaths from the 2017-2018 flu virus which was 79,400. Just as bad but the Country didn’t shut down over it. The Dem Panic was an excuse to lay the blame on President Trump so they could try and impeach him a second time. Russia didn’t work, Mueller didn’t work, Crimea didn’t work, Stormy didn’t work. I doubt the virus will work… Read more »

Papa
Papa
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryben Flynn

RF. admit defeat your talking about 2016. Geez just think what will happen this Nov. I can’t even watch the evening news anymore.

Tionico
Tionico
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryben Flynn

and the number you quote isthose who dies WITH the Chinavirus. Never mind they came to hospital in an ambulance dying of a heart attack….. were tested after death and found positive to the CV, thus marked down as FROM rather than WITH.
Fraud, much?

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryben Flynn

61,099 died of influenza in the 2017/18 season with a 95% confidence interval of 46,404-94,987 deaths. An influenza season is 12 months! 88,000 died of COVID 19 between March 22 and May 15. That’s less than two months. Influenza and COVID 19 are not even in the same ballpark in terms of numbers! Keep up with these idiot talking points and you will just provide more ammunition to those clowns that want to keep the country closed indefinitely and pay everyone not to work by printing money! The shutdowns are illegal and impractical. Period! Now, stop spreading nonsense and start… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, so Colorado dropped their death toll by 272 that tested positive but died from other causes from 1,091 to 878. My state, Tennessee, has counted that way from the beginning and only reported deaths from COVID-19 and not with COVID-19! Meanwhile, the US-wide death toll increased by 865 just today and many excess deaths, especially in New York state, are still unaccounted for. Playing this numbers game is stupid! It leads to nothing! The excess deaths in our country and in many other countries tell the story that COVID 19 is about 10 times deadlier than the seasonal flu.… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, I plan on going skiing in Colorado again next fall/winter. It all depends on the ski areas being open, which all depends on those areas not being an infection hotspot. It is YOUR responsibility to keep YOUR local economy going and not to become an infection hotspot! Otherwise, my business goes somewhere else, like Utah! None of your or someone else’s virtue signaling on wearing or not wearing masks will influence my decision. PS: The Los Angeles County Director of Public Health Barbara Ferrer (top-right in the tweet) has a Ph.D. in Social Welfare from Brandeis University, a Master… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@USA, The dude talks sense for awhile, then turns on a dime to get all uppity. Pitiful.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, starts posting ad hominem attacks when arguments run out. Nothing ew. Quite predictable.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@CF, You put your own credibility in question.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

, It is suspicious that he wants us to believe him so badly.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

, all true.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

Will) That is what I’ve been thinking about CF for quite a little while now. For some reason, this issue has so taken him over that reason and logic have become irrelevant. He no longer thinks about it, but only repeats his mantra over and over. It is now his dogma. The essential parts of his belief system that are not allowed to be questioned. They must just be accepted. Period and Full stop.
The silly religious notion that somehow “blind faith” in something has value! Nothing but foolish ridiculousness.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Knute

USA: 138 million, actually.
https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2184808/dod-awards-138-million-contract-enabling-prefilled-syringes-for-future-covid-19/source/GovDelivery/
a very small correction, I know. Picking a nit. But I’m primarily a long range precision shooter, so extreme accuracy is highly important to me.
No offense meant, as I’m sure you already know, but others might not. 🙂

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Knute

I knew you wouldn’t take offense at such a small issue, or I wouldn’t have said it. But I can’t pass up a chance to spill the beans, right from the burro’s mouth! (I’ll not insult my horse by suggesting he’s as stupid as burrocrats! He’d probably kick me in the head! He’s a stallion, so he’s a little touchy… Like Bill Burr, I’m pro dog balls… and horse balls too.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LraLftQTJAA Geldings aren’t for me. I like creatures with spirit. Didn’t “break” him either. Made friends with him instead. So now, I’m the only one that can ride him.… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, well, it is your local economy that is going down the drain. If you are happy about that, then that just shows what the problem here is.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, well, thank you for proving my point that you don’t give a shit about the economy or your fellow Americans.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, there is nothing about “getting you”! You are pure entertainment value!

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@USA, no problem! Thank’s for your confession.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago

CF: People make up a nation. Economies are what supports governments. Governments are NOT nations! Jefferson knew this, but it appears that you do not.
“A true patriot will defend his country from its government.”
-Thomas Jefferson
Your religious zeal has tainted your intellect. You should really address that problem because it is a huge weakness. Good luck with that, as I strongly suspect that you will choose insults and ridicule instead, in keeping with your religious nature.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Knute

, my religious zeal! LOL. Just more insults and ridicule, as expected. No discussion of the actual topic at hand.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago

Right on his cue! CF is as predictable as the sunrise! All zealots are.

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, if he or you, have been in isolation for the past month and a half, and have not gotten sick, the likelihood of you or he transmitting this virus is low enough to be considered nil. If you picked-up the virus while out shopping, the same transmission method that got you infected would not prevent you infecting others that you come into contact while out and about, which renders your “mask”, and anyone else’s, irrelevant. If, as Finnky stated in another post, about 2/3’s of new patients are becoming infected while “sheltering in place”, it clearly shows that they… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, no-one lives in total isolation (in actual quarantine and not this fake quarantine where everyone goes shopping). No-one should live in actual quarantine, unless they know they are infectious! We can’t get the economy going by staying at home! I can pickup the virus through an infected mail carrier leaving the virus on the weekly junk mail delivery and then spread it in my local Walmart to 1,000s of people while not wearing a mask. I can be asymptomatic for two weeks! Think about that for a moment! Yes, people who think they are protected by just… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, all you have stated is wear a mask. You then state you could receive/transmit the virus by touch, but have not stated that you wear gloves or use other hygienic methods to reduce your chance of receiving/transmitting the virus. And as many have pointed out, a simple face mask that the government tells us to wear, or any face covering, will not prevent the transmission of the virus, nor will being “6 feet” away from others while walking around a store. You keep claiming that everyone that does not agree with you is an “anti-vaxxer” or a “quack”. Rational… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Heed the Call-up, I have stated the following multiple times on Ammoland: “Wear a mask when in public indoor settings, weak a mask outdoors if you are in a crowd, wash your hands regularly and properly, and limit touching your face. With these simple things, we can hold this virus back and get our economy going. Ignoring the virus and going about your day like before just means you will get it, you will spread it, you may suffer from it and you may cause others to suffer from it.” Also, masks have two different purposes: (1) protect you from… Read more »

Heed the Call-up
Heed the Call-up
1 year ago

CF, so you don’t admit that you don’t wear gloves to protect yourself and others, yet you admit that touching can also be a source of transmission. Your position on masks, but not gloves is interesting as you claim to be so concerned about virus transmission. One might even state it is hypocritical or even stupid or irrational. Protect your mouth and nose, not your eyes, and not your hands. That makes sense to no one, but, apparently, you. I never stated masks are dangerous. Read my posts. Also, stop deflecting and answer my question. Why are you claiming that… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

I know someone that should live in total isolation. Snickker.

Knute
Knute
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

WB: 🙂 good one! 🙂

Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
1 year ago

@CF With regards to the first paragraph of your post. I must respectively disagree with your statement about 95% confidence on the cause of death. In the county in which I live, if a person dies at home, the coroner’s office comes out and determines one thing, is it a “Natural” death or murder. If it is deemed a natural death then the body is released to the family and that’s it. The person may have died of a heart attack, the flu or anything else but there is no test done to determine what it was (at least before… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Autsin Miller III, do you know how we count flu deaths? You are right AND you DON’T disagree with me. You just do not know how we count flu deaths! Here is a hint, we don’t count those accurately either, we estimate them! It is a common misconception that one even can count infectious disease deaths accurately. However, without testing every single death, we can’t and we don’t do that even for the flu! Flu deaths are estimated by counting the actually reported infections through testing and then increasing that number using statistical math based on historical reporting data. That’s… Read more »

Autsin Miller III
Autsin Miller III
1 year ago

@CF, no, I did not know that we estimated flu deaths. I naively thought there was accurate information in that regards until I witnessed three deaths that were from complication of the flu and they were not counted. I won’t speak for how confident you are in the numbers and percentages reported but I no longer trust them and a priori, I no longer have faith in the other numbers presented by the CDC et al.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

@Autsin Miller III, here is an interesting paper to read on this topic:

Assessment of Deaths From COVID-19 and From Seasonal Influenza
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2766121

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@CF, I suppose that all these other people come to Ammoland just to troll you, too. There sure are a lot of people that come here just to troll you. Snickkker.

uncle dudley
uncle dudley
1 year ago

The spread of covid shows me how nasty some people are, never covering their mouths when they cough or sneeze and not washing their hands on a regular basis.
Very easy to slow the spread just by these basics every little kid should be taught early on.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  uncle dudley

dudley, You got at least 3 down votes for posting the basic common sense of maintaining personal hygiene to stop the spread of any disease. Ammoland at its best!

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago

, well it just shows how irrational our community has become!

TexDad
TexDad
1 year ago

Less illness versus… something that didn’t happen? Good luck quantifying that. Yes, we have less illness with more precautions.

You’re right though that isolation and fallen economy has a very real cost in health and lives. I was immediately disappointed in all our talking heads that the conversation wasn’t about balancing all the risks from Day 1.

Camotim
Camotim
1 year ago

Make the ChiComs pay the most extreme price. Start with hanging XI and the leadership of the Commie Party.

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Camotim

, The ChiComs should pay the most extreme price for what exactly? It’s just the flu, bro. All the harm is self-inflicted.

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@Camo, When the Chinese realized that their virus was out of control, they did not want their economy effected, so they remained silent about the numbers, and the human to human transmission. That is only part of what they should pay for. The Chinese see the economy as one of the pillars or war, and biologics as another. It is all in their book Vision of Victory. The Chinese have developed satellites that can destroy our communications, and GPS satellites. They are using stolen AI programs to develop autonomous killing machines, unmanned submarines, and better target acquisition. The Chinese have… Read more »

Charlie Foxtrot
Charlie Foxtrot
1 year ago
Reply to  Wild Bill

@Wild Bill, not sure why you reply to me, initially address your reply to me and then edit your post to address your reply to @Camotim. Anyway, I have been told multiple times here on Ammoland and on other gun forums that this virus is no dangerous than the seasonal flu and all the economical harm is self-inflicted. If that is the case, then why should the Chinese pay for hiding a seasonal flu outbreak? The virus is either dangerous and the Chinese should pay for hiding the outbreak from the world, or it isn’t and they shouldn’t pay for… Read more »

Wild Bill
Wild Bill
1 year ago

@CF, slip of the mouse.

JIAZ
JIAZ
1 year ago

It’s all right out of the Totalitarian Playbook. Create and implement Chaos and Panic throughout the population. Then, under the guise of coming to the rescue, Seize Power.

TNJEWBOY
TNJEWBOY
1 year ago
Reply to  JIAZ

The action is in the reaction.

Finnky
Finnky
1 year ago
Reply to  JIAZ

So a joint operation? Finally cooperation between our governments!

Think I prefer them to be at each other’s throats – as long as it doesn’t go nuclear.