ATF Conduct Surprise Inspection at Man’s Home without Warrant VIDEO

ATF Police Raid IMG 2nd instagram.com/atfhq/
ATF Police Raid IMG 2nd instagram.com/atfhq/

U.S.A.-(AmmoLand.com)- The homeowner was alerted there were trespassers on his property by motion detectors outside his front door. A live video feed from his doorbell camera showed three armed men wearing tactical vests, t-shirts and jeans. Two appeared to be ATF agents. The third was a Delaware State Police trooper. None wore body cameras.

The homeowner, who did not want his name used in this story, is a small businessman – a law-abiding citizen who even ATF acknowledged had done nothing wrong. He went to his front door hesitantly. He left his doorbell camera running to record the encounter.

The homeowner confronted the three men before they reached the door. “Can I help you?” he asked, stepping onto the porch.

The older ATF agent told him they were assigned to a task force investigating straw purchases. A straw purchase – a federal felony – occurs when someone buys a firearm on behalf of another person, who is unable to legally purchase a firearm themselves.

The agent said they were verifying that people who bought multiple firearms still had the guns in their possession. The homeowner had bought seven firearms since January 2022.

He asked the men for identification, which the agents and trooper produced. They admitted they did not have a search warrant. The doorbell camera recorded what happened next.

Agent 1 – “All I’m doing is verifying that you have it, you got two different purchases. If you have them, I’m out of here. That’s how quick it is. Yeah. Do you have them with you by any chance?”

Homeowner – “They’re in my safe.”

Agent 1 – “If you can unload them and bring them out. We can go out to your foyer here, check them out, write the serial numbers and we’re out of here.”

Homeowner – “That’s it?”

Agent 1 – “Yep.”

Agent 2 – “That’s it. It will take five seconds.”

Trooper – “The reason we’re out here is obviously gun violence is at an uptick. We want to make sure – we’ve been having a lot of issues with straw purchases. One of the things, indicators we get is someone making a large gun purchase, and then a lot of times we’ve been there and ‘Oh, those guns got taken.’”

Agent 1 – “The idea is that when you purchase more than two guns at a time it generates a multiple sales report and it comes to us and we have to check them out. That’s all that is. You did nothing wrong – absolutely zero.  I noticed you were stopped in Philly though with one of your guns?”

Trooper – “We’ll wait if you feel more comfortable.”

Homeowner – “I’m okay. I just – I didn’t expect…”

Agent 1 – “Oh no. It just came up. We came here, look, I’m telling you. There’s an email from the federal side saying can you make sure this guy’s got his guns. If you recently purchased a whole bunch of guns, if we can look at them and just scratch them off…”

Homeowner – “I have them all.”

Agent 2 – “We can look at them and write which ones you just bought, so we can save a trip from coming back. We’ll confirm that you have them.”

The homeowner agreed to get the firearms, closed the front door while the agents remained on the front porch, unaware they were being recorded.

Trooper – “He doesn’t believe we’re cops.”

Agent 1 – “I don’t blame him.”

The homeowner retrieved one rifle. The agent checked the serial number off of his list. The homeowner asked if he still needed to retrieve the rest of the firearms. The agents said it wasn’t necessary to see anymore. They apologized for the inconvenience, wished the homeowner a good night, and left.

Invasion of privacy

Looking back, the homeowner believes he was coerced into giving his consent for what was legally a search of his property, even though no enforcement action was taken against him.

Since the ATF agents did not have a search warrant – they lacked probable cause to obtain one – they had to rely upon extracting consent from the homeowner.

When the courts consider consent, they look at its voluntariness – whether consent was freely given or coerced. They also consider whether the defendant knew he had a right to refuse. Other factors like the time of day and the officers’ demeanor and uniforms can also be considered by the court.

They pushed hard. They were clearly in a hurry, and the threat they might have to return was menacing.

“I was embarrassed,” the homeowner said. “My neighbors saw the whole thing – guys in these police vests standing in my yard. I was really uncomfortable. I felt really confused, like I was in some way being accused of something even though I didn’t commit a crime. It was quite embarrassing. I knew they couldn’t come in, but I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t want to get put on some watch list. We just got new gun laws here. I didn’t want them coming back again. I felt like they were invading my privacy.”

No Comment

The Resident Agent in Charge of ATF’s Wilmington, Delaware field office did not return calls seeking comment for this story.

Similarly, public information officers at both ATF’s Baltimore Field Division and Washington D.C. headquarters did not return calls or emails seeking comment. This lack of accountability is certainly nothing new for the ATF.

Delaware State Police was also unwilling to discuss this investigation.

Neither Delaware State Police PIO supervisor Sgt. India Sturgis nor Superintendent Col. Melissa Zebley were willing to be interviewed for this story.

“It sounds like your questions would be more appropriately suited for ATF. Please contact them with questions that you have about straw purchases of firearms,” Sgt. Sturgis said in an email.

The only insight into ATF’s surprise home inspections was in a Washington Post story published July 22, 2021, in which Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that the Biden-Harris administration was targeting straw purchasers.

“Going forward, officials said, U.S. attorney’s offices and ATF agents will seek to prosecute more straw purchases — focusing not only on major cities, but also the neighboring towns and states that supply many of the guns used in crimes, including along the Interstate 95 corridor and in Indiana, Nevada and Arizona,” the story states.

Delaware is part of the I-95 corridor. The interstate bisects the state’s most populous county.

Takeaways

Delaware State Police have a proven lack of respect for the Second Amendment. They were once caught maintaining a secret list of gun owners, even though state law required them to destroy firearm records after 60 days. They used the list to illegally thwart at least one firearm purchase. Pairing one of their troopers with the ATF was bound to produce a host of constitutional violations. It was only a matter of time.

These types of warrantless investigations are known as “knock and talks.” They’re usually a tool reserved for narcotics detectives and they’ve always been constitutionally suspect. Police rely upon verbal skills and their powers of persuasion to convince a homeowner to waive their Fourth Amendment rights and let them in. Unlike this case, there’s usually no record of what the cops told the homeowner in order to gain access to the home.

To be clear, if the ATF agents had probable cause to believe this homeowner was actually a straw purchaser, they could have petitioned the court for a search warrant. They didn’t have a shred of probable cause in this case. In fact, all they had was an internal email stating “make sure this guy’s got his guns.”

This homeowner lives in an upscale, affluent neighborhood – a factor that certainly played a role in the agents’ plans. They were counting on the homeowner to let them in quickly rather than risk a neighbor seeing three LEOs in tactical vests milling around in his front yard.

The fact that neither the ATF nor the Delaware State Police were willing to answer questions, much less defend the actions of their officers, speaks volumes, too. Both agencies mistakenly believe that if they ignore difficult questions they’ll go away.

Best Practices

The best person to stop a straw purchase is a well-trained gun dealer. John Clark of FFL Consultants has trained hundreds of gun dealers.

Clark and business partner John Bocker crisscross the country to help dealers fight back against Biden’s war on guns. Their mantra is: “Get it right the first time.”

“Straw purchases are something we teach all of our FFLs to monitor for,” Clark said. “If someone wants to buy seven Hi-Point handguns, they should ask why someone wants seven of the cheapest handguns they sell.”

“The Golden Rule is this – buy a gun and keep it for at least a year. That will keep you out of the sights of the ATF and law enforcement,” he said. “If you’re buying and selling on the side, you should get licensed.”

Clark was asked about this case – two federal agents and a state trooper wearing tactical vests.

“They could have been a little bit more inconspicuous,” he said. “But that’s the feds.”

This story is presented by the Second Amendment Foundation’s Investigative Journalism Project and wouldn’t be possible without you. Please click here to make a tax-deductible donation to support more pro-gun stories like this.


About Lee Williams

Lee Williams, who is also known as “The Gun Writer,” is the chief editor of the Second Amendment Foundation’s Investigative Journalism Project. Until recently, he was also an editor for a daily newspaper in Florida. Before becoming an editor, Lee was an investigative reporter at newspapers in three states and a U.S. Territory. Before becoming a journalist, he worked as a police officer. Before becoming a cop, Lee served in the Army. He’s earned more than a dozen national journalism awards as a reporter, and three medals of valor as a cop. Lee is an avid tactical shooter.

Lee Williams

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American

Ok. I finally feel that I have to jump in here. These ATF visits are real, and they are happening in many states. I have direct knowledge of them. I am a retired fed LE manager. These visits started at least as far back as January of this year. They always show up, ambush interview style, with three officers – sometimes two ATF agents and one local, sometimes one agent and two locals. Sometimes the team looks professional, sometimes they look like meth folks. When they show up, they may not be dressed battle-ready. They don’t enter the residence, but… Read more »

Russn8r

We know ATF’s a bunch of illiterate thugs, but do we have to parrot them? It’s strawMAN purchases, not “straw purchases”.

FredP

This was obviously a fishing expedition with the intent of intimidation.
Someone should file a Freedom of Information Act request asking for information on how many “Straw Sales” were prosecuted as a result of this sweep.
My guess: Zero

E4TL34D

Another non-issue of law enforcement trying to enforce the law.

JSNMGC

Do you mean it’s a non-issue because law enforcement is just trying to enforce the law or that law enforcement is trying to enforce a law that is a non-issue?

MikeRoss

Non-issue? It was law enforcement acting outside the law, that’s a very big issue.

swmft

I cant tell you how many drug busts went out with trash because this kind of stupid policing ,gets to court judge hears (before cameras) murder weapon murder case drugs all non admissible because of strong arm tactics

Stag

Big fan of infringement, huh?

Ope

In TEXAS and most the South these punks with badges would have been told to hit the road without a warrant! This is Delaware though ‘Nuff said !

Russn8r

That is SUCH a load of bull.

Ashley Villarreal.png
JSNMGC

“In TEXAS and most the South these punks with badges would have been told to hit the road without a warrant! This is Delaware though ‘Nuff said !” ~ Ope(Will/TEX, et al.)

Ope, TEXAS enforcers have cooperated with the BATFE many times. I’ve previously posted numerous examples.

You live in a fantasy world in which TEXAS enforcers are heroes.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/17/probers-rip-all-sides-over-uvalde-school-massacre/

Russn8r

He doesn’t live in a fantasy world. He’s lying for pay.
THIS was also made possible by TEXAS enforcers.

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JSNMGC

ARFcops have been busy (even over the last couple days) trying desparately to explain why many of the enforcers at Uvalde where heroes and how tough they are.

It’s insane.

Russn8r

How many cops does it take to screw in a light bulb?

1 to screw it in, 375 to stand around looking tough.

Last edited 18 days ago by Russn8r
Russn8r

How many cops does it take to screw in a light bulb?

376 to wait for backup.

1 Border Patrol Agt to tell them to get F’d.

Last edited 18 days ago by Russn8r
Russn8r

How many cops does it take to screw in a light bulb?

376 to arrest parents, 1 Border Patrol Agt to do their actual job.

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JDL

Agree with them, step onside and make 2 phone calls. First to your attorney, then to the Sheriff to report armed trespassers. Take your time, go back outside, locking your door behind you, with your attorney on speaker, and tell them that you have been advised by your attorney not to submit to an unwarranted search, and that you have called the sheriff to have them removed as trespassers. The sheriff is the highest law authority in the county – he out ranks the state police and the feds, and can jail them both if they don’t comply. You would… Read more »

Deplorable Bill

The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Illegal search and seizure under color of law.

Trespassing.

Invasion of privacy

Illegally keeping records of firearm purchases

Tyranny

Treason

There is no such thing as a straw purchase when/if the constitution and the second amendment is valid. These stazi/gestapo/atfe agents should be arrested and prosecuted, jailed and when found guilts as video evidence shows, publicly be given the legal medicine for tyranny and treason.

Arm up and carry on

swmft

how about we get rid of some of the crap coming across southern boarder for lethal injections

Wolfpack98

After they went through their talk I would have told them to wait there, closed the door and went about my business. Then when they knocked again, ask what they wanted and told them to wait again. Then gone about my business, until they knock again or finally figure out I’m not bringing anything to them. The more time I waste of theirs, the less they can waste on someone else.

Behind The Lines in N.J.

Once Upon A Time there was a place called The United States of America. That place is no more.

Behind The Lines in N.J.

These “nice men,” geared up for combat, standing uninvited on the property of a sovereign citizen, were presenting their left boots forward.
“When the government’s boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.”
― Gary Lloyd

JSNMGC

Solzhenitsyn’s lament: “What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in… Read more »

musicman44mag

I always say, I want the America I was raised in back.

Idaho Bob

Does anyone still believe that the FBI destroys all those 4473 forms and that there is no federal registry?

Ope

Nope.

musicman44mag

It’s all on computer now. I just filled out the form the other day. They now have the record forever.

Bubba

FBI does not hold the 4473. They do not know who purchased it. I think it goes like this: 1. Firearm is manufactured and serialized. 2. Firearm is shipped to an FFL and DROSed into store or shop (DROS = Dealer Record of Sale) 3. Customer comes into store. 4. Customer fills out 4473 form. 5. Either a NICS check is run to verify customers eligibility to purchase or usually a CCW in your state is sufficient. Gun is DROSed out of store and now belongs to you. 6. 4473 is stored by manufacturer and serial number. The only information… Read more »

Ope

Bubba,one other thing. The ATF for at least the last five to ten years have sporadically gone to FFL’s places of business and through intimidation tactics illegally made copies of the customer 4473’s. They don’t wait for the FFL to go out of business or 20 years as law requires to obtain the 4473’s. The ATF is just a criminal enterprise in search of ways to turn law-abiding citizens into felons. Nothing more.

GomeznSA

Ope – the bats recently admitted to being in possession of nearly a BILLION firearms transaction records. How can that be if those records are supposedly destroyed? And you can bet that information is willingly shared with any other outfit that wants access (like the feebs) to them.

Bubba

I agree.
According to Bruen the ATF and the NFA are Unconstitutional.
So are all the crazy laws in mostly Blue states.

JSNMGC

Can you imagine what kind of person would enforce those laws against their fellow countrymen? For example, the people who enforced California gun control laws before they moved to states with less strict gun control laws.

Wild Bill

Respectfully, that is not what the Bruen case decision said. That is what we wish that the decision said.

Tackleberry

Bruen threw out most of the courts’ ability to to weigh 2A cases using two-tier or tertiary scrutiny. The new standard as defined by Bruen is only allowed to use the 2A as written with the Founder’s intent and in historical context. So this has opened the door to two challenges to the NFA so far. The bigger one is that the West Virginia v EPA decision has now said that agencies may no longer regulate beyond the four corners of the Congressional law on the page. This is a direct guillotine to the ATFs proverbial head. It’s just going… Read more »

Wild Bill

Quite correct!

JLS

Sorry, but if you’ve ever listened to the conversation during a background check, you know that not only does the seller give your identification information, they also give the full information on the firearm. So, don’t think the 4473 is the only place that info is stored.

Russn8r

Keep telling yourself that.

JDL

The data wasn’t from the 4473, it was from the separate report of a multi-gun purchase that was sent in separately, is my understanding. You save $10 per gun since they are purchased under one 4473, but I’m not sure it’s worth it.

swmft

I have a bridge to sell you

willyd

This issomething that should be brought to the Supreme Court, and the same action taken by them, like their ruleing on the EPA, they are not a Congressal Department that can enact their own Laws and RULES! The other thing that needs to be brought before them is all of the Illegal RED FLAG LAWS being PASSED BY MOST STATES, you are Guilty and must prove your Innocence, then trying to get your guns back in any reasonable amount of time if ever!!!!! Lets see if there is a Lawyer with a set of GO-NADS to bring that up before… Read more »

ShooterOne

It is time to train these agencies they are not allowed to invade our privacy.

WHY DO PEOPLE ALLOW SUCH INTRUSION JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FROM THE GOVERNMENT OR CLAIM THEY ARE FROM THE GOVERNMENT. That statement alone is reason to tell them to just go on their way they are not welcome on my property.

HLB

I think the problem with people allowing government overreach is the incremental factor. Yesterday I had to fill out a form to get my Amateur Radio license. I wanted the license so I checked “No” on the question of whether I was a felon. It does not matter whether I was a felon. But I checked the box on the form. So the next week it is something else and then one day a bunch of agents arrive at my front door. We know what is coming next year…

HLB

HLB

By the way, authorities who are scanning, I am not a felon, but having to check the box yes or no, violated my rights.

HLB

GomeznSA

HLB – yep – seems I recall something from American Government (back when it was actually taught in public schools) called the 5th Amendment. Perhaps such forms need to be revised? That is especially true regarding such intrusive documents as the 4473 since courts have ruled that criminals cannot be compelled to be truthful on it. Strange times we live in……………………
BTW – I ain’t a felon either 😉

musicman44mag

What good does it really do to have to check a box if you are a felon or not when a known drug addict can buy a gun and it doesn’t stop them from getting in trouble for lying on the form. Hunter Biden.

HLB

This box and that box on government forms has deforested a large portion of the planet, and people who do not care about forms just ignore them.

HLB

Roland T. Gunner

Just say “NO!”

GomeznSA

Or be polite and wish them to have a nice day and shut the door.

Cruiser

Take the time to read and understand the Constitution. There is more to your rights than is in the Miranda warning.

AZ Lefty

SO he gave permission and is now whining about it- And the issue other than HIS GIVING PERMISSION IS?

This is a snowflake trigger article AKA Lee’s usual articles

nrringlee

Question number one: Do You Have a Warrant? Question number two: Do You Have Reasonable Cause to Believe I Have Committed a Crime? Question number three: State the Specific Statute You Are Using as Your Basis for this Encounter. Multiple purchases are not illegal. As such they do not constitute a credible theory to lead to an encounter much less a search. No judge in his or her right mind would grant a search warrant based upon that theory. This is simply a fishing expedition intended to entrap. Take video, detailed notes, descriptions of cars and uniforms and badges and… Read more »

Tionico

Agent 1 – “All I’m doing is verifying that you have it, you got two different purchases. If you have them, I’m out of here. That’s how quick it is. Yeah. Do you have them with you by any chance?” Correct answer: The paperwork with BATF and the FFL is complete and correct. Please refer to those documents, It is obvious I do not have any of the equipment in question upon my person. If you want anything further pleace aproach the appropriate court judge and get a search warrant. Then, after they leave, remove everything from the safe and… Read more »

willyd

Remember this in Delaware, big part of a gun grabbing EAST COAST GUN GRABBING set of STATES, easily done by Uncle JOEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

2gats

Do they ever do this in the projects?

Boz

Defacto registration.

Bill

During the last inspection I received when I had an FFL, the inspecting agent informed me that the BATF had changed the rules and were no longer limited to one inspection a year without a warrant. Now they can inspect as many times a year as they want without a warrant!

GomeznSA

Bill – true enough BUT this particular case involved a private individual, not dealer. Seems to me these guys were trolling. No telling how many other individuals they successfully intimidated into complying.
It would ‘interesting’ to find out who set up the ‘task force’ and what their marching orders are. Finding out their financing might be helpful as well.
BTW, it would probably take an entire legal firm to keep up with the constantly changing ‘opinions’ from the bats ;-(

Beowulf

They should be knocking on crackhead Hunters door.

Finnky

Just how many legal firearm purchases do you think he’s ever made? Much less multiple firearms purchases as being motivation behind this sort of visit?

He’s the illegal buyer, not the straw purchaser. If something like this lead to his long-term imprisonment I’d except that one instance :).

grant

This guy needs to sue.
The actions of those officers was soooooo far out there in ‘Not Legal’ land, the first judge will look at it and laugh.
Yes, I do know this to be fact.

Last edited 19 days ago by grant
nrringlee

Correct. His immediate action to bring this encounter to light in detail will also help keep these rogue federal agencies at bay. I remember back during the Barry Sotero days when the IRS was raiding accounting firms and auto dealerships with guns drawn and pointing their Glocks at grandmothers who were simply working as book keepers. Intimidation is the game.

swmft

sounds like a law suit needs to be filed, maybe he can win enough to make his house safe

Patriot Solutions

ATFs time would be better spent disarming trannies and people should stop arming them claiming they are disadvantaged and at risk of being attacked.

The FACTS are widely known and anybody still pushing the Kool-Aid are complicit in arming the insane.

https://cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex

uncle dudley

I thought NICS doesn’t keep a record of firearm purchase over 24 hours.
Where did these so called cops obtain the information?
The government wouldn’t lie to the American people would they, lol.
If they are concerned about multiple purchases maybe they need to talk to Eric Holder and his group.

Ope

uncle dudley, I was wondering if Holder and Obama will ever be held accountable and pay for Fast and Furious too!

KC

It’s a form that the dealer has to fill out if you buy more than one gun in a short time period. I don’t remember what the period is. I know the form existed last century because I spread out some purchases in 1999 so the form would not be necessary.

Regular Guy

The kicker is if those forms are retained for awhile, which it seems they are. It’s a definite FOPA violation but don’t expect the regime to call them out on it.

Finnky

No question that they are retained. As has been in the news, they have a digitized database containing roughly a billion 4473s. To them it is not a registry because they selected a software setting that does not allow search by owners name. Even if they could not change that selection, not clear they cannot search by address or something just as specific.

To misquote Shakespeare – a registry by any other name would be just as heinous.

swmft

searchable by serial number, every person who has had the gun that,s info was not destroyed comes up

Finnky

Been told period is 30 days.

I’d be careful talking about your past actions if they were not long past statute of limitations. Just as with making multiple cash bank transactions under $10k, totaling over $10k – I don’t doubt they could charge you with something similar to “structuring”. Obviously you were following the law in order to evade the law – or something like that…

Always remember that to those who dislike you – following the law is just a loophole.

Roland T. Gunner

STRUCTURING!

swmft

just one more crime by batfe, the whole bunch should be jailed

JSNMGC

Too many Americans are willing to enforce unconscionable laws against their fellow countrymen. As this video shows, they are also willing to exert their authority over people when no law has even been broken. I wonder what the victim’s neighbors thought about three body armor-wearing enforcers (who looked like slobs) spread out in front of his house.   Too many Americans are subservient to enforcers. Note that, once again, a state/local enforcer (in this case, a Delaware state enforcer) joined the BATFE in hassling a “civilian” who had done nothing wrong. This is nothing new – state/local enforcers (including sheriff departments in rural counties… Read more »

Sisu

There are many issues with this encounter. I suggest the primary “enabler” is the unlawful “court precept” of “qualified immunity”. The BATFE and DE Trooper all would not participate if not for that “shield”. Each of the individual LEOs are nothing but “parasites”, “whoring” themselves for their income, benefits and chance at the “disability lottery”. … Seriously, can any adult who believes in “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” not recognize that none of the LEOs who participated in this “domestic terrorism” are anything but “whores” ? … Each of these (what’s your adjective/range of genders) should have lifetime… Read more »

JSNMGC

For over 100 years, almost every totalitarian regime in the world that has resulted in massive human misery has depended on armed government employees/agents who followed orders. The worst fear of totalitarian politicians is that armed government employees/agents won’t follow their clearly abhorrent orders.  The most common way totalitarians get into power is by convincing a large group that their plight is the fault of others: You “have not” because others “have” and they “control the means of production” (Lenin/Stalin) The intellectuals/elites are causing all the problems – we need to force an agrarian society (Mao and Pol Pot). “The Jews… Read more »

HLB

Just wait until government employees have thoroughly screwed up the energy and food markets”.

I am afraid they already have. With subsidies floating major businesses an 30+ trillion in fiat debt, it is a long slide to the bottom.

HLB

Wild Bill

Yes, the lives and futures of Americans not even born yet will be burdened by this debt.

JSNMGC

Government employees have only just barely begun to screw up the energy and food markets. You haven’t seen anything yet. It’s just a matter of time before government actions have increased the price of gas to $12 a gallon and police are shooting at 16-year-old farmers (like in the Netherlands). Our debt is driven by a massive, inefficient government that is involved in things it shouldn’t be involved in. As one small example, three government slobs shouldn’t be sent out to question a “civilian” because he purchased some firearms. Also, and unrelated to this article, we had previously discussed carrying a firearm… Read more »

HLB

Yes I did see what happened to him. He should have had back up. The other side is too used to being numerically superior. It does not have to be that way.

HLB

JSNMGC

Is that how you do it when you carry conspicuously in Boston, NYC, Newark, Bridgeport, Chicago, Los Angeles, or dozens of other places? You bring armed back-up and shoot employees of police departments?

HLB

The employees of police departments are the ones who bring armed back up to shoot me. The 14th amendment says everybody gets treated equally, so I can bring armed back up with me.

What do you do If some one draws a weapon on you?

HLB

JSNMGC

I don’t conspicuously carry firearms in places enforcers are likely to ruin (or end) my life for doing so. You don’t either – you just encourage others to get tangled up with enforcers. First, you indicated people should carry in places where enforcers don’t allow it. Then Mississippi Man did just that and your response was that he should have brought back up. If another Mississippi Man (one that hasn’t been jailed yet) takes your new, revised advice and brings some back up and draws on enforcers, what will your advice be when they (the Mississippi Men) are all killed?… Read more »

Last edited 18 days ago by JSNMGC
HLB

Well, I do wish to talk to law enforcement people about this. I think most of them have an interest in a better outcome as well as we do. But keeping mum about it and hiding our weapons will not result in a mutual solution or respect.

HLB

JSNMGC

Sounds like a plan. You may want to give David a call and get his thoughts about “civilians” riding the L with their gat strapped:

David Brown
(312) 746-6000

https://home.chicagopolice.org/about/department-offices/

Wild Bill

I think that you have your finger on the pulse of an important issue. If the police approach and draw their guns first are they not initiating deadly force against you? The law of deadly force does not have an exception for cops.

Russn8r

Technically no, practically yes. BIG exception. Cops can kill you with impunity.

Daniel Shaver and daughters.png
Arizona

He willingly allowed them to record the serial number of one of his firearms.

Coerced or not, he should have said, “you see none of my property unless you get a warrant”.

DIYinSTL

Like Jaque said, cooperate now or have your door busted in later. And if they don’t shoot you for coming to your crashed open door, gun in hand, you will be the one paying to repair the damages and burying your dog if you have one.

Ope

DIYinSTL,the ATF are criminal scum that should be locked up for their crimes ! ABOLISH ATF,RESCIND NFA !

JSNMGC

Do you recommend the same for the state/local enforcers who cooperate with them – including TEXAS county sheriff department employees in rural counties?

Russn8r

How DARE you suggest cops should be accountable for anything! TEX is all about blaming federales & excusing their local serfs, and trashing DeSantis while covering for Abbott, who I think is his boss.

JSNMGC

It’s interesting.

Russn8r

Also interesting, many posts of “his” are like a brain transplant. Like someone else using his handle, then once in a while they let him out of his cage for his more typical suck up comment like

AbolisH ATF!!! rESCInD NFA!!!

As if that enlightens some imaginary person here who disagrees.

Then upvotes himself with sock puppets 5-12 times, as always. No change there.

Last edited 19 days ago by Russn8r
JSNMGC

Each time he starts posting under a new user name he tries hard to change the way he writes. His best effort so far is the “Ope” account. He attempted to throw in a few distractions early on, but finally he just went back to his old ways.

Russn8r

You’re probly right, but it’s possible he trades off running the main account & sock posse with another agent who’s less of a moron.

swmft

may be a sherif department running accounts not a person style changes with people assigned to desk

Russn8r

Yep.

Mr.Right1776

That’s the thing I always think about when they raid houses. They come in blasting anything that moves if they shot my dogs I’d have a hard time not shooting back.

Russn8r

So are their serf cops LIKE YOU in TEXAS who help them enforce.

swmft

that is why doors are rpg rated if I dont open it you aint coming in one wood door is made like ship hatch center handle retracts 10 1″diameter metal rods key in-gauges the handle bearings in handle prevent binding

Wild Bill

Who makes those and how can I get a couple of them?

swmft

doors are made by west texas bullet proof , us government uses them in embassies in troubled parts of the world the wood door was a ship cargo hatch from a cargo freighter that had bulk and deck shipping

Wild Bill

West Texas Bullet Proof. Thank you.

Roland T. Gunner

If they shot my dog, no question, I WOULD shoot back. I’d go all kinds of Butch & Sundance.

My wife, yes; my cars, maybe; my dog, never.

swmft

kind of like the shooter kill my dog I kill everyone you know then you

Bill

Yeah, look at the BATF track record: Ruby Ridge, Waco and a couple of others no one remembers!

willyd

WACO?????

Bill

The BATF Started the whole thing!

JSNMGC

That is an incorrect statement.

Chief Deputy, Captain Dan Weanburg (sp?) of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department contacted the BATFE. Lieutenant Gene Barber of the McLennan County Sheriff Department testified to this fact while under oath during the congressional hearing on Waco. He was asked multiple times (in slightly different manners) to ensure there was no doubt. A rural county sheriff department in TEXAS was responsible for the BATFE initiating their investigation.
 
It’s not uncommon for rural county sheriff departments in TEXAS to cooperate with the BATFE today. 

JSNMGC

That is an incorrect statement.

A detailed explanation went on hold.

swmft

atf did start it the tip from local sherif was just the final straw, federal government had been going after groups they decided were not desirable government deciding what is religion….remember reading somewhere that was not allowed in the us …had to be on old useless document .

JSNMGC

No, the BATFE didn’t start it.

Chief Deputy, Captain Dan Weanburg (sp?) of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department contacted the BATFE. Lieutenant Gene Barber of the McLennan County Sheriff Department testified to this fact while under oath during the congressional hearing on Waco. He was asked multiple times (in slightly different manners) to ensure there was no doubt. A rural county sheriff department in TEXAS was responsible for the BATFE initiating their investigation.

JSNMGC

Detailed response on hold again.

The BATFE didn’t start it.

Lieutenant Gene Barber of the McLennan County Sheriff Department testified under oath that his boss contacted the BATFE. There is no evidence that was presented that indicated the BATFE was previously investigating any of the people at Waco.

It was rural county sheriff department employees in TEXAS who got the ball rolling.

JSNMGC
GomeznSA

Some of us remember – Whidbey Island ring a bell?

swmft

atf led raid with fbi , chasing people that want to be left alone?

Rodoeo

Absolutely.. there are enough leftist, constitution ignoring, judges that would be more than happy to issue a no knock warrant if he did not comply with the initial contacts.

Last edited 19 days ago by Rodoeo
Russn8r

Or without prior contacts. Don Scott was murdered by LA Sheriffs to help their “federal partners” steal his ranch by “asset forfeiture.” No-knock warrant was rubber stamped by a Ventura judge.

Russn8r

Forgot the pic.

Donald Scott.png
Russn8r

Downvoted by cops who think cops should be able to murder with impunity.

Russn8r

Only fools talk to police without an attorney (and often not even then) or consent to anything remotely analogous to a search without a warrant.

Terry

+1
Go away and return with a warrant when my lawyer is present.

Wild Bill

Call all of your friends and neighbors to come over with their cameras, too. We can all gather evidence, together.

HLB

It is easy to say call your lawyer, but you do have to pay them. I have paid them. It may be necessary to tread on lawyer no-man’s-land occasionally. That is just like fixing your own air conditioner rather than calling an expert.

HLB

Russn8r

“The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.”

Even more true for a layman in any situation that could remotely be construed as criminal by stupid corrupt treasonous cops.

Russn8r

Downvoted by cops who rely on fools to help cops convict them.

Bubba

This is why insurance is handy. X-Insurance will cover this sort of thing.

Jaque

Delaware. Bidens State. What else do you need to know. No warrant. Just a couple of nice guys in body armor with guns. Show us your papers. Your papers Now ! We dont want to have to come back ! Be assured had this homeowner not cooperated there would have been a full blown raid at 3 am on his home with busted doors and windows and his family held at gunpoint in the street.

Welcome to Amerika. Where you are guilty of crimes that do not yet exist.

WeWereWarned

Cops lie as part of their normal job, as it helps to extract information and read the other person. They also get pushy. In a defensive gun use, you give the first cop on scene, if he didn’t kill you for being armed, your id, then shut up and ask for a lawyer. If they keep hassling you then tell an emt you are having a medical emergency and tell the cop to talk to your lawyer. Nothing you say to a cop will help you, that is television nonsense, but it will be used to hurt you. A deadly… Read more »

Russn8r

OpeTEX is offended. It’s a big club, getting bigger, and you ain’t in it.

376 clowns at Uvalde ran from gunfire but courageously handcuffed unarmed parents.

How many LEOs does it take to screw in a light bulb?

376. One to screw it in, 375 to stand around looking tough.

What happened to 1 riot, 1 ranger?

1 punk, 376 poseurs cowering, texting, hand sanitizing, hitting vending machines. What were they waiting for? More backup? Gunships? Tanks? Bigger budgets?

Even the one whose kid was murdered was more afraid of disobeying orders than of the shooter, a form of cowardice.

Uvalde swat clowns dial 911 & die.png
swmft

sad, any adult that would not risk their life for even one child is useless in my book

swmft

police lie as much as lawyers and more than used car sales men