New Evidence Shows ATF Lied To Congress Regarding Determination Letters

ATF Police Raid IMG 2nd instagram.com/atfhq/
ATF Police Raid IMG 2nd instagram.com/atfhq/

WASHINGTON, DC-(Ammoland.com)-The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has always claimed that it works on a first in/first out model for evaluating industry products for determination letters.

In multiple letters to Congress, the agency also claimed to have a 90-day turnaround time in issuing determination letters. Thanks to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by Len Savage of Historic Arms LLC, we know that is not true.

Mr. Savage, through his attorney Stephen Stamboulieh, has uncovered evidence that the ATF not only does not meet the 90-day turnaround time for issuing determination letters, but that isn’t even its internal goal. The FOIA request uncovered multiple letters to members of Congress such as former Rep. Mia Love (R-UT), former Rep. Raul R. Labrador (R-ID), former Rep. Bill Dold (R-IL), Former Rep. Devin Nunns (R-CA), and Congressman Bill Posey (R-FL) claiming the 90-day turnaround time for the issuance of determination letters. But in an uncovered PowerPoint presentation by the Firearms & Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) from 2021, the times are listed as six to nine months for industry evaluations.

The time frame given in the PowerPoint is a lot longer than what the Bureau has always told members of Congress. Looking at other FOIA requests for production releases, it seems that the six-to-nine-month time frame might even be an overly optimistic time frame for a lot of submitted industry samples. Also, there is a clear pattern that specific categories of items are intentionally processed slower by FATD.

The ATF claims that it works on a first in/first out model, but AmmoLand News has also obtained evidence from Mr. Stamboulieh that the first-in/first-out method isn’t the method that the Bureau uses when evaluating industry products. A definite pattern is formed by reviewing the FOIA requesting all submissions to FATD older than 15 months. Almost all outstanding determination letters are either for pistol stabilizing devices or unfinished pistol frames and receivers.

Since these items are a small minority of what FATD evaluates, one would expect to see relatively few of these products being held for more than 15 months for evaluation if the ATF genuinely evaluates items in a first-in/first-out system. It is more likely that the federal government is intentionally holding these items while evaluating other less controversial products first.

Jordan Vinroe, JSD Supply President, does not think the ATF uses a first-in/first-out method. JSD Supply is one of the largest sellers of unfinished frames and receivers in the country. The company has submitted multiple items simultaneously to FATD for evaluation to get a determination letter. The products that are more difficult to finish seem to get approved, while the things intended for the entry-level builder are stalled in the process. JSD Supply is just one of the companies in the home builder space that has items that have been with FATD for over 15 months

“It is a ban without making it a ban,” Vinroe told AmmoLand News, “Bureaucrats are injecting their personal opinions and views into the evaluation process. This is causing a strain on commerce. It is more proof that there is secret rule making.”

AmmoLand News reached out to the ATF for comment but has not received a response at the time of publishing.


About John Crump

John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.

John Crump

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GrossJ

So, does this mean if the ATF lied to congress, are they actually more powerful than the congress???
They need to dissolve, the ATF and put them in there place. They should not make law’s or rules they should only in force the rules and law’s. Or put someone in charge that is pro 2nd A… And maybe the FBI should actually look into the the groups that want to destroy our constitutional rights, who are lobbying for gun control and a gun registry…

Riverwolf

Have you people not noticed that the entire Exectutive Branch is completely lawless, and flipping their middle finger at the Citizens, Congress, and Courts? There is absolutely no accountability for them so why shouldn’t they?

Tank

Yes since 1992 whenBush Sr. Said NWO & his Masonic “Thousand Points of Light” giveaway clue I noticed.

JSNMGC

Ok, I’m laughing.

I thought about that when I saw it, but that’s not my area.

Where is Patriot Solutions?

john

Now we can all agree to the danger we all are facing turn around justice he should be jailed for life

South Carolina judge set a $25,000 bond for a suspect in a mall shooting on Saturday that left 14 people injured, according to the Columbia Police Department. 
Jewayne Price, 22, will be on house arrest but allowed to travel to and from work while wearing an ankle monitor if he posts bond. 

john

Democrats are rigging the system using Bidens ability to sign executive orders he must be impeached and then indicted for his treasonous acts against our constitution. Democrats are using a small percentage of the populations voices to alter how we live in the United States. Under democratic control this government is now responsible for the highest violent crime rate in our country by empowering these radical groups while flooding the country with illegals crossing our borders. God created Adam & Eve the democrats are creating a whole new gender of people for political reason. Therein lies the danger they trying… Read more »

Mike11C

The federal government can lie to us with impunity but, it’s a federal crime for us to lie to them. What’s wrong with this picture? This is why I’ll never speak to one of them. I don’t care if they ask me what time it is, I will refuse to answer. The same goes for Congress. If it’s is a crime for me to lie to them, it should be a crime for them to lie to me. Until we’re on an even playing field, that’s the way it’ll be.

CourageousLion

WHAT? THE ATF LIED? I can’t believe that. You have to be making it up. Those guys are all top tier citizens doing a fantastic service for the firearms community. They would never lie… I had to write this to keep from getting down votes from the snowflake boot licking butt kissing crowd that lurks in the back ground and spits at you when you can’t see them. So YES, I’m being VERY sarcastic. They LIE all the time. And surprisingly enough the supreme Court has ruled that “Law Enforcement” MAY lie. As part of their job. Scotty, beam me… Read more »

DIYinSTL

I’m sure I have given you a down-vote in the past because you wrote something disagreeable. And on occasion I have held a grudge but it debases this sandbox to down-vote a person instead of a comment. So I will agree with you that it is (morally) wrong for the system to lie with impunity but prosecute the individual when he does. You get an up-vote from me on this one. Caution: you don’t really want Scotty to beam you up. In the fictional world of Star Trek the globalists have won and there is only one government on earth.

CourageousLion

I may have wrote something disagreeable to YOU, but there were many others that do and did agree. At least thanks for being honest.

Bubba

Bummer you had to explain that you are being sarcastic. I enjoyed the laugh as read your post.

Tionico

LYING to Congress? Say it ain’t so!!!!! The BATF?

American Cynic

We keep complaining about government, as we complain about “the corporations”; but what we fail to appreciate is that they are not autonomous entities; but rather run by people who make up the policies by which they operate. Both corporate America and the Government have been subject to a concerted effort, an infiltration by people who are of the mindset that they alone should be in control, and any opposing opinion or thought is to be suppressed. Where do these people get their ideas, and are they colluding to accomplish their goals. I assume they are not colluding, but they… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by American Cynic
Tank

“Where do these people get their ideas, and are they colluding to accomplish their goals” The answer is the Judeo-Masonic Conspiracy aka Committee of 300 – Club of Rome which is WELL documented & very well known. Especially amongst critical free thinkers who already figured it out. You can’t make people think or read. They are indoctrinated by they’re own mental construct of reality they choose to create. From the beginning for Man’s origins & man’s journey the human condition & ignorance has never been plumbed. Humans consciousness is still all over the place with no set base point of… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Tank
CourageousLion

You are quite well informed. We written and absolutely right on the target. Add this to your information repertoire. https://www.educate-yourself.org/cn/communistmanifestortenplanks12sep06.shtml

Cruiser

So what does the treasury department do since the formation of the ATF?
I don’t mean to bad mouth the members of the “alphabet bureaus” who actually go out and do their job fighting crime and not sitting in an office creating criminals out of honest citizens. The “Alphabet bureaus” need to be cleaned out of the paper pushing politicians.

swmft

they need to be dissolved ,a vat of casuistic soda comes to mind , when criminal activity becomes the norm to save the republic you amputate the agency and cleanse the wound ,get rid of all the associated people , send them to canada ,that is what we did when we got rid of crown

Tionico

“casuistic soda”. Great one there!!!

Tionico

ATF don’t do much in way of “fighting crime” Most of what seems to fall into that category can and should be handled by local LE. But BATF get their noses into that stuff and then brag about how they are “reducing gun crime”. Most of that is for show, to boost their “image’ in front of the public.I’ll believe tehy are actually DOING that self-assigned job when they actually go after the Biden Junior Unit for his well documented gun/drug crimes. Anyof us do those things WE would be wearing an orange onesie and greeting the morning light bulbs… Read more »

CourageousLion

The ATF “regulates” explosives too. If I have a hand grenade sitting on my desk and no one touches it and I never do anything with it that damages someone else in their life, liberty or property, WHERE is the crime. However, THEY, the ATF can have hand grenades to toss into your house if they feel you have one that that hasn’t been regulated by them. Nothing wrong with this! This is totally moral, right?

CourageousLion

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance. Sound familiar?? And yes, it is actually spelled harrass in the DoI.

CourageousLion

I quote the Declaration of Independence and get down voted. Nothing wrong with the person who did that! Except lack of BRAINS.

DIYinSTL

Lately they have been spending a lot of time pouring ink and feeding linen rag paper into the printing presses or cutting checks (i.e. making electronic deposits) for multitudes of people around the world and in prison because … Covid-19.

CourageousLion

Which is why…

ashort

Do you know the odd thing about all of this is, people complain about the Do As I Say, Not as I Do Government Hippocrates, but yet are not willing to stand up and do anything. all everybody does is complain that the government is infringing on our rights, but yet once again are not willing to do anything. It is a wonder we have guns at all. We compromise with the Government, giving them what they want. Then the Government says that is not enough, and takes more. All we do is give, and the Government takes. with no… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by ashort
CourageousLion

http://CSPoA.org…is the last hope.

Montana454Casull

Get the refrigerated trucks ready to role and follow these clowns around the country . Bloodshed is on the horizon . More people will die defending freedom than from covid . If they show up on your doorstep do your part to fill the trucks . Civil war is on the horizon in America . We the people need to do away with all the alphabet soup agencies and take our government back by force if necessary from these lying deceptive clowns . They are not going to surrender thier corrupt hold on power and deception without a fight !

Wild Bill

Prepare to participate!

swmft

it does look that way , people need to start forming self defense militias, and arm up

CourageousLion

Arkansas has the Arkansas Patriots up and running full steam ahead.

Tionico

maybe if the economy collapses so hard the agents of these organisations don’t get paychecks anymore……. These guys would probablg melt like butter in a pottery kiln at the first few rounds disscharged in their direction when “disarming” society. Maybe some should do a quick review of uor history. Something bout some loud noise heard round the world, or something like……. Things did NOT go well for General Gage, the Head Brit Enforcer back in Boston. He had some definite opinions concerning the mettle of the colonial “sibjects” (his opinion) when he sent out that fourth powder raid. Reading his… Read more »

Cooter

ATF = another Democrat government organized crime ring and gun rights are a big thorn in their plan they know that they can’t force their bullshit laws that only apply to us and not them down our throats as long as we are armed but yet they have armed guards with them everywhere they go paid for by us these clowns are a joke and getting more ridiculous by the day

swmft

a bad joke being played on US,

Tank

We know they lie to us. They know they lie to us. They know that we know they lie to us.

Using a corrupt entity to investigate itself serves we the people in exactly what way ?

Allowing any corrupt tyrant or form of tyranny to continue the long train of abuses under the color & authority of law serves society at large & it’s people to what end ?

Henry Bowman

Time for Americans to act, act as though the BATF doesn’t even exist. No compliance, no consultation, just do what you will. No thing that is unconstitutional is legitimate and their enforcement activity is felonious. If they bring deadly force to an encounter, Americans should plant them like potatoes.

JH1961

America needs ‘Henry Bowman’.

Wild Bill

I’d support his campaign!

Henry Bowman

Everyone needs to be a Henry Bowman.
That, and know where your area hog farms are… Bwahahaha!!

swmft

need to do to them what was done to land management ,

CourageousLion

Hey Henry…do you have a good video camera around? USE IT!

Henry Bowman

No. NO.
We’re past filming them. Besides, all they’ll do is seize the video.
If they don’t kill you, they’ll black bag you and you end up in a gulag somewhere, incommunicado and subjected to daily torture, medical maltreatment, starvation and contaminated water.
The only justice left IMHO is the high velocity kind.

CourageousLion

Did you actually read “Unintended Consequences” by John Ross?? What made the impact that had to do with a video camera? It is said that the Lebonese used the idea from that book on the Israelis. And it was the main reason John was harassed continually.

Henry Bowman

You’d have to refresh my memory because it’s been a few years since I read it and I’ve yet to find the time to reread it. The only thing I remember is he used a camera to record a forced ‘confession’ from a captured ‘enemy combatant’.

I also remember he ‘fed the hogs’ on his friend’s farm.

john

The ATF needs to be shut down. It should not exist in the first place it does not align itself with our constitutional rights. This is a separate component of the department of justice .It now is the arm of the socialist democratic party.

john

The future of our country is in the wrong hands and they can never be trusted. Today constitutional carry is breaking new ground and that is awesome. Once power is given to these alphabet deep state run agencies removing them becomes more difficult.

I believe in the American spirit that lives in some of us. I do not underestimate the corrupt democratic party’s ability to commit election fraud in Nov 2022 or weaponize other agencies in the near future.

Finnky

As example of this, notice how much Biden is trying to increase #FATF’s budget. They are also setting up to deputize state and local LEO – in order to force local resources to enforce federal law. The are seeking enough agents to act as nationwide law enforcement who can directly enforce laws by themselves rather than acting as specialized consultants to local LEO. Basically they are looking for any way to nulify SAPA protections – no matter how weak those protections are at this point.

JSNMGC

“They are also setting up to deputize state and local LEO”

Are you basing that on John Crump’s article?

He wrote:

“Another provision in the bill will allow the deputization of local law enforcement by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF).”

I did not see a reference to duputizing local law enforcement in the bill. Did you find something?

All I found was a provision that allowed state prosecutors to be deputized to assist in prosecutions:

“§ 925D. Special assistant U.S. attorneys and cross-deputized attorneys”

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/03/under-cover-of-darkness-senate-passes-new-gun-control-laws/#axzz7QZDXLSDM

CourageousLion

KrisAnne Hall had the bill that is in at the last CSPoA seminar in Eureka Springs AR that I went to. She showed it and made it very clear. I don’t have where it is personally but I don’t doubt her in the least.

JSNMGC

Thanks. If you find it, please post a link.

Finnky

You are right about where I read it. I heard from a couple other sources as well, but suspect they had gotten the info Fromm Crumps article as well. Have not read the bill, so thank you for clarification.

This is how fake news spreads, so appreciate your efforts to keep us honest. There’s enough stuff going on, so no need to makeup even worse. When reaching out to our representatives, it I should always best to make comment based on reality – otherwise writer discredits themselves.

JSNMGC

One of the senators for the state I live in voted for the bill, so in my communications with his staff about specific points in the bill, I did not push this one because I did not see it in the bill.

If you can find the point John Crump described in the bill, please post a link.

Thank you.

JH1961

Southern LEOs won’t become ATF’s lackeys, and the ATF doesn’t have enough manpower to enforce such dictates. I live in an area where numerous government agents attempted to infiltrate moonshiners and bootleggers during Prohibition. They never found all of their agents.

CourageousLion

How sad…agents for fertilizer or pig food.

Wild Bill

Coyotes. They clean up the leavings promptly and scatter the bones.

Last edited 1 month ago by Wild Bill
Orion

feral hogs and gators are more efficient; nothing they excrete is recognizable.

Wild Bill

Yes, we have those, too. Woods for rent!

Russn8r

Southern LEOs collaborate and cover for their federal “partners” all the time.

Wild Bill

Can’t be a cover up is you know about it. If it is done all the time, then tell us about some of them.

Russn8r

Just did. Do you ever stop trolling? I wrote “cover for”, not “cover up”. You complain about putting words in someone’s mouth, so take your own meds, Oathbreaker.

Wild Bill

No, you just stated a conclusion. There are thousands of Southern counties. Give some examples.

JSNMGC

“No, you just stated a conclusion. There are thousands of Southern counties. Give some examples.”

See below – would you like more posted? If so, any particular state? I already showed examples from Texas, Georgia, and South Carolina.

Wild Bill

I appreciate your efforts, but the few numbers that you have provided as compared to the total number of Southern counties times the number of years does not rise above the level of antidotal evidence. It seems to argue the other way.

JSNMGC

You don’t really believe that, do you?

Those were all in the last year or so.

They are a small sample taken from a database that includes thousands.

Would anything convince you that “southern” LEOs have been cooperating with the BATFE?

You asked for examples.

You got examples.

You said police don’t count.

You got sheriff examples.

Now you say those examples prove your point.

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
JSNMGC

Louisiana Man Pleads Guilty to Possessing a Firearm as a Convicted Felon   “Jackson, Miss. – Jordan Thomas, 24, of Vidalia, Louisiana, pled guilty today to possessing a firearm after having been previously convicted of a felony crime, announced U.S. Attorney Darren J. LaMarca and Kurt Thielhorn, Special Agent in Charge of the Jackson Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.   Thomas is scheduled to be sentenced on April 12, 2022, and faces a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.    This case was investigated by the Adams County Sheriff’s Office and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol,… Read more »

Wild Bill

I believe that small samples are more anecdotal than probative. That is why John Lott is so successful.

JSNMGC

“I believe that small samples are more anecdotal than probative. That is why John Lott is so successful.”

Why did you ask or examples?

Also, the examples given were a subset of the thousands of cases in the database.

It’s clear that many “southern” LEOs frequently work with the BATFE to enforce firearm laws.

You keep twisting and turning but that doesn’t change reality.

Wild Bill

You declared that JH1961 was wrong. You declared that Southern sheriffs do coordinate with ATF. He did not ask for your proof on his own. So I did.

I think that you have proved, conclusively, that some Southern sheriffs do coordinate with ATF, but you have not proved that all, the great majority, the majority or even beyond a few Southern sheriffs coordinate with ATF.

JSNMGC

“You declared that JH1961 was wrong. You declared that Southern sheriffs do coordinate with ATF. He did not ask for your proof on his own. So I did. I think that you have proved, conclusively, that some Southern sheriffs do coordinate with ATF, but you have not proved that all, the great majority, the majority or even beyond a few Southern sheriffs coordinate with ATF.” ~ Wild Bill JH1961 wrote: “Southern LEOs won’t become ATF’s lackeys, and the ATF doesn’t have enough manpower to enforce such dictates.” I gave him an infamous example (Waco) of “southern” LEOs cooperating with the… Read more »

Wild Bill

A few have, over the years. I think that you have proved that.

JSNMGC

“A few have, over the years. I think that you have proved that.” ~ Wild Bill

There are hundreds of cases in the last 12 months.

There are thousands of cases in the last few years.

It’s your choice not to look at the database. You choose to not look at data that is contrary to something you want to continue believing.

Last edited 26 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

Given the number of Southern counties, and tens of millions of contacts with the public, I would expect millions of examples, not merely thousands.
Mere thousands seems to support less cooperation with ATF.

JSNMGC

“Given the number of Southern counties, and tens of millions of contacts with the public, I would expect millions of examples, not merely thousands. Mere thousands seems to support less cooperation with ATF.” ~ Wild Bill You are inappropriately inflating the denominator – a common tactic for people trying to make an argument that is indefensible. The number of contacts with the public has nothing to do with the cooperation with the BATFE. State, county, and city/town LEOs get calls for all sorts of things. It only takes one call to ruin the dentist’s life for owning a semiautomatic rifle.… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

I think that applying logic to any debate is not inappropriate. That is why statistics are not allowed as evidence in court,

JSNMGC

“I think that applying logic to any debate is not inappropriate. That is why statistics are not allowed as evidence in court,” ~ Wild Bill

You applied bad logic. See above for explanation.

Wild Bill

Because you say so … does not make deductive logic defective. I’m still going with JH1961 because you have not disproved his assertion.

Last edited 26 days ago by Wild Bill
JSNMGC

“Because you say so does not make logic defective.” ~ Wild Bill

I’ve given you an example. The percent of contacts with the public that involve the BATFE is meaningless.

The fact that many state, county, and city/town LEOs cooperate with the BATFE (and other federal agencies) to enforce gun laws is important.

Wild Bill

Yes, a few do. You have proved that.

JSNMGC

“Yes, a few do. You have proved that.” ~ Wild Bill

“Many” not a “few.”

Wild Bill

Even giving you the “.05 percent contacts” that I thought that you wanted, I don’t think that you have proved “many”. yet. Wait … how are you defining “many”?

JSNMGC

“Even giving you the ‘.05 percent contacts’ that I thought that you wanted, I don’t think that you have proved ‘many’. yet. Wait … how are you defining ‘many’?” ~ Wild Bill

Just the ones they bragged about in press releases, and only looking at East Texas, it was over 50 in just the last couple years.

Just the ones they bragged about in presse releases, it was over 3,000 nationwide in just the last couple of years.

You can find all this information in the database if you are interested.

Wild Bill

Nope, internet information is not reliable; going to unknown sites is a good way to pick up viruses; waiting on a big storm and resulting comms shut down; have to get livestock in the barn, maybe; negotiating on a bike; and about to capitalize on some stock shares. My plate is pretty full just this instant.

JSNMGC

“Nope, internet information is not reliable; going to unknown sites is a good way to pick up viruses” ~ Wild Bill

That’s an interesting risk assessment.

You have concluded the Department of Justice website is riskier than Ammoland.

Wild Bill

You of all people should know that all you will get at the USDOJ website is lies.

musicman44mag

That all depends on what is, is.

Wild Bill

Most humorous! I bet old bill Clinton regrets having ever said that.

musicman44mag

Funny thing is, the wife and I were watching and I said it before Bill did. Should have seen the look on her face after he quoted me. LOL, I still smile thinking about it. He is a devious old devil.

Wild Bill

Compared to the number of Southern counties, and millions of contacts over the years, I would think that their would be millions of examples, maybe tens of millions. Less than that would prove that fewer Southern sheriffs cooperate with ATF, than expected… statistically.

JSNMGC

“Compared to the number of Southern counties, and millions of contacts over the years, I would think that their would be millions of examples, maybe tens of millions. Less than that would prove that fewer Southern sheriffs cooperate with ATF, than expected… statistically.” ~ Wild Bill As an example, assume a Hopkins county deputy makes 200 contacts with the public during a month for the following reasons: 100 traffic tickets 15 traffic accidents (placed cones to redirect traffic) 45 consensual discussions about fishing, hunting, pick-up trucks, chewing tobacco, doughnuts in Yantis, the Masonic Lodge turkey shoot, etc. 20 neighbor disputes… Read more »

Wild Bill

Adopting your own .05 contacts standard, just for the sake of discussion, you will have to come up with 500000 examples spread evenly by Southern county, to prove your assertion.

JSNMGC

“Adopting your own .05 contacts standard, just for the sake of discussion, you will have to come up with 500000 examples spread evenly by Southern county, to prove your assertion.” ~ Wild Bill

You have mischaracterized an example as a standard.

There is no standard when it comes to the percentage of state/local LEO contacts that involve the BATFE, because that percentage is meaningless (obviously).

Wild Bill

Oh, I thought that you were advocating for a .05 contacts standard, and I was giving it to you, for the sake of making your case.

JSNMGC

“Oh, I thought that you were advocating for a .05 contacts standard, and I was giving it to you, for the sake of making your case.” ~ Wild Bill

No, the 0.005 (0.5%) example was to show how foolish it is to view BATFE cooperation as a percentage of contacts.

If you determined an acceptable percentage, all the enforcer would have to do was talk to more people about the Masonic Lodge turkey shoot or Sweetie’s Donuts and he would have met your arbitrary percentage you deem acceptable for working with the BATFE to enforce unconscionable laws.

Wild Bill

So you no longer wish to prove up your assertion using statistics? Ok.

JSNMGC

“So you no longer wish to prove up your assertion using statistics? Ok.” ~ Wild Bill

That was you who believes cooperation with the BATFE to enforce unconscionable laws is ok as long as it within an acceptable percentage of contacts. I just demonstrated the flaw in your thinking.

Wild Bill

I never said that cooperation with BATFE to enforce unconscionable laws is ok, as long as it is within an acceptable percentage of contacts.
I said that JH1961 has a credible assertion. You sought to prove that his assertion was not true.
Now that you no longer wish to try to proving up your case with statistics will you be using some other technique? Abductive logic, perhaps.

JSNMGC

“I never said that cooperation with BATFE to enforce unconscionable laws is ok, as long as it is within an acceptable percentage of contacts. I said that JH1961 has a credible assertion. You sought to prove that his assertion was not true. Now that you no longer wish to try to proving up your case with statistics will you be using some other technique? Abductive logic, perhaps.” ~ Wild Bill My view is that state, county, and city/town LEO cooperation with the BATFE to enforce unconscionable firearm laws is unacceptable. If you agree with that, then we are in agreement.… Read more »

JSNMGC

It’s a well-funded, organized program of on-going “southern” (and all other parts of the country) LEO cooperation with the BATFE:  Justice Department Awards More Than $17.5 Million to Support Project Safe Neighborhoods  “The Department of Justice announced today that it has awarded more than $17.5 million in grants to support the Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN) Program. Funding will support efforts across the country to address violent crime, including the gun violence that is often at its core. The Tennessee Department of Finance and Administration was awarded $ 172,929, to administer PSN grant funds in the Western District of Tennessee.  … Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by JSNMGC
Russn8r

Thousands of small samples make a large sample. He’s provided at least 100s here, if not 1000s. Wouldn’t matter if he gave you tens of 1000s. You would continue to deny the problem even exists or should be discussed.

JSNMGC

Thank goodness he wasn’t given the death penalty. As you point out, though, what government employees did to Waters probably shortened his life. Same with Richard Jewell and others.

JSNMGC

The boys in Biloxi are busy cooperating with the BATFE, but you indicated they don’t count with respect to challenging your view that “southern” LEOs don’t cooperate with the BATFE.

Those good ol’ boys are busy doing some infringin’.

I can just picture their guts hanging over their belts “you in a heap a trouble, boy.”

Wild Bill

You have many preconceived, Hollywood generated, notions.

JSNMGC

“You have many preconceived, Hollywood generated, notions.” ~ Wild Bill

You go to great lengths to apologize for the people who follow orders to enforce unconscionable gun laws.

Wild Bill

No, I just don’t hate cops, generally, or any specific cop at this time.

JSNMGC

“No, I just don’t hate cops, generally, or any specific cop at this time.” ~ Wild Bill

I don’t support bad LEOs. You continually try to characterize that as “hating cops.”

Russn8r

Using the same bad logic, one could claim you hate civilians, since you cover for bad cops who murder them, resulting in more murders by cop, with impunity.

JSNMGC

Lucedale Man Pleads Guilty to Illegally Possessing a Too Short Shotgun
 
“Gulfport, Miss. – A Lucedale man pled guilty today to being a felon in possession of a firearm, announced U.S. Attorney Darren J. LaMarca and Special Agent in Charge Kurt Thielhorn of the  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
 
The ATF and George County Sheriff’s Office investigated the case.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Jonathan Buckner is prosecuting the case.”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdms/pr/lucedale-man-pleads-guilty-firearms-offense

JSNMGC

Four “southern” sheriff offices worked with the BATFE on this one.

Jackson Man Sentenced to 15 Years in Prison for Being a Convicted Felon in Possession of a Firearm

“Jackson, Miss. – A Jackson man was sentenced to 180 months in prison for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, announced U.S. Attorney Darren LaMarca and Special Agent in Charge Kurt Thielhorn of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The case was investigated by the ATF, Hinds County Sheriff’s Office, Copiah County Sheriff’s Office, Lincoln County Sheriff’s Office, and Yazoo County Sheriff’s Office.”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdms/pr/jackson-man-sentenced-15-years-prison-being-convicted-felon-possession-firearm

JSNMGC

Toomsuba Man Sentenced to 2 Years in Prison for Possession of a Firearm by Convicted Felon   “Jackson, Miss. – A Toomsuba man was sentenced today to 24 months in prison for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, announced U.S. Attorney Darren LaMarca and Special Agent in Charge Kurt Thielhorn of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.   The Lauderdale County Sheriff’s Office and the ATF investigated the case.   This case is being prosecuted as part of the joint federal, state, and local Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN) Program, the centerpiece of the Department of Justice’s… Read more »

JSNMGC

Convicted Felon Pleads Guilty to Possession of a Firearm
 
“This case was investigated by the Shelby County Sheriff’s Office and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/convicted-felon-pleads-guilty-possession-firearm

Wild Bill

My mistake. What is the difference between cover for and cover up or cover up for?

JSNMGC

“Southern LEOs won’t become ATF’s lackeys, and the ATF doesn’t have enough manpower to enforce such dictates.”

The Chief Deputy of a rural sheriff office in a “southern” state contacted the BATFE and started the ball rolling on Waco.

Last edited 1 month ago by JSNMGC
Russn8r

Another example Wild Bill’s Oathbreaker Posse can’t address, so they downvote it.

Wild Bill

They are addressing you. I can not speak for them, but I think that they are, each individually, saying that they will always stand up to you.

Wild Bill

I have no posse. Each of these gentlemen make their own decisions.
I don’t think that they are down voting “it”. I”m thinking that they are down voting you. I guess that because so many have flat out told you to go else where be cause of your licentious comments. I could be wrong.

Deg4u

You are right, W.B.

musicman44mag

I second that.

Wild Bill

Well, there is one out of thousands, and many years ago. Hardly enough to support his conclusion.

JSNMGC

It’s an important example and I posted it as a reply to JH1961 showing there are exceptions to what he wrote.

Wild Bill

You only showed one exception … not exceptions. And that was a long time ago. If that is all that you can come up with out of thousands of counties, over thirty years, and millions of individual contacts, then, that inability seems to support his statement.

JSNMGC

Wild Bill, the BATFE (and other federal law enforcement agencies) have created a program to have an ongoing, cooperative relationship between federal enforcers and state and local enforcers. It’s been described in many of the BATFE press releases posted on Ammoland. It’s called the Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN) Program, “the centerpiece of the Department of Justice’s violent crime reduction efforts.” PSN is critical to the enforcement of never-ending gun control. The cooperation of state, county, city/town enforcers is required for meaningful enforcement. Do you really believe this program has not been implemented in “the south?” How many examples would convince you that a certain… Read more »

Last edited 28 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

I am aware of PSN. The existence of the program does not prove your point. One example per county, per southern state in the last year is pretty minimal proof of your assertion.

Last edited 28 days ago by Wild Bill
JSNMGC

If you consider East Texas to be “southern,” here is a small sample of cases in just that area in which “southern LEOs” cooperated with the BATFE to enforce gun laws. Just like at Waco, there are typically allegations/charges in addition to “firearm violations” associated with the cases.  In many cases, the crime is “felon in possession.” For those people who are fans of forever denying firearm rights to a “felon,” they should remember how many gun law violations are already felonies (and there are more on the way). These are cases resolved in the last year or so. Houston County Man… Read more »

Last edited 28 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

I believe that we are talking about southern sheriffs. You stated, “The Chief Deputy of a rural sheriff office in a “southern” state contacted the BATFE and started the ball rolling …”
There was only one sheriff’d dept among your examples.
The distinction being Sheriffs are amenable to the voters. Police are controlled by city government.

JSNMGC

I was replying to JH1961’s comment: “Southern LEOs won’t become ATF’s lackeys, and the ATF doesn’t have enough manpower to enforce such dictates.” I pointed out that: “The Chief Deputy of a rural sheriff office in a “southern” state contacted the BATFE and started the ball rolling on Waco.” Then you joined the conversation. Sheriff office employees are LEOs, but not all LEOs are sheriff office employees. If you want to redirect the conversation from “Southern LEOs” to “employees of Southern sheriff offices,” there are plenty of examples, beyond the one shown for East Texas, but that is a different… Read more »

Wild Bill

Well, lets just ask him, then. Hey, JH1961 did you mean sheriffs’ departments or all law enforcement officers in the South?

JSNMGC

Whether they work for southern police departments or southern sheriff departments doesn’t really matter. The same people who elect mayors elect sheriffs. Police Chiefs are accountable to the voters. It’s just requires that voters speak up – if people don’t like the police chief, they can vote for a new mayor.

Having said that, southern LEOs working for sheriff departments frequently work with the BATFE to enforce federal firearm laws.

Warren County Sheriff’s Office cooperates with BATFE to indict man of illegally possessing a machine gun.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdga/pr/warren-county-man-indicted-charges-including-machine-gun-possession-methamphetamine

Wild Bill

Mayors and city councils are accountable to the voters because they stand for election. Police chiefs do not stand for election and are, therefore, not accountable to the voters. Police chiefs keep their jobs by doing what the mayor tells them.
Sheriffs stand for election and are directly accountable to the voters.

JSNMGC

If people don’t like the police chief, they can vote for a new mayor. It just requires that people speak up and make it known that the mayor is getting bounced because of the police chief. Regarding “southern” sheriffs: “Three men face felony firearms charges in separate indictments by a U.S. District Court grand jury in the Southern District of Georgia, while nine others have admitted to gun charges.   ‘These prosecutions continue to send a strong message,’ said David H. Estes, Acting U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Georgia. ‘With our law enforcement partners, we are working to make… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

Maybe the voters like the mayor. Maybe a new mayor retains the old police chief. The mayor is accountable to the voters, the police chief is not.

JSNMGC

If people don’t like the police chief, they can elect a new mayor – it just requires that people speak up and make it known that the mayor is getting bounced because of the police chief. If the voters have significant dislike for the police chief, that should influence their opinion of the mayor. If the people make it known the mayor is getting bounced because of the police chief, it would be unlikely the new mayor would keep the police chief. If he/she does, then repeat the process. Police Chiefs are accountable to the people. It just takes an… Read more »

JSNMGC

More cases of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE: “’Getting guns out of the hands of criminals is an essential part of keeping our communities safe,’ said Acting U.S. Attorney Estes. ‘We will continue to work in collaboration with our federal, state, and local law enforcement partners to hold accountable those who would illegally possess firearms.’ Powell was on felony probation for a state firearm conviction in June 2019 when he admitted selling a sawed-off 12-guage shotgun to an undercover agent from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The cases were investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,… Read more »

JSNMGC

More cases of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE: Three men indicted on federal gun felonies (Possession of a Firearm by a Convicted Felon)  “’A key factor in reducing gun violence is to get firearms out of the hands of people who are prohibited from possessing them,’” said David H. Estes, Acting U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Georgia. ‘Our collaboration with the ATF and other law enforcement partners will help make our communities safer.’  Agencies investigating these cases include the ATF; the Georgia State Patrol; the Richmond County Sheriff’s Office; the McDuffie County Sheriff’s Office; and the Swainsboro… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
JSNMGC

More cases of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE: Four individuals indicted on federal firearms felonies (Possession of a Firearm by a Convicted Felon)  “’Along with our law enforcement partners, we will vigorously enforce existing laws to keep guns from the hands of those who are prohibited from possessing them,’ said David H. Estes, Acting U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Georgia. ‘We especially applaud our continued collaboration with the ATF.’  Agencies investigating these cases include the ATF; Savannah Police Department; the Richmond County Sheriff’s Office; and the Columbia County Sheriff’s Office, with assistance from the U.S. Marshals Service.”… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
JSNMGC

More cases of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE: “Ten individuals indicted on federal firearms charges (Possession of a Firearm by a Convicted Felon) as part of agencies’ collaborative effort.   All of those charged are prohibited from possessing firearms. The cases are being investigated under the Department of Justice initiative targeting illegal firearms, and in coordination with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and local law enforcement agencies. ‘A fundamental requirement for safe streets is keeping guns out of the hands of individuals who are prohibited from possessing them,’ said David H. Estes, Acting U.S. Attorney for the… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
JSNMGC

Another case of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE:  Spartanburg Man Sentenced to 15 Years in Federal Prison for Unlawful Possession of Firearm and Ammunition  ”United States District Court Judge Timothy M. Cain imposed a sentence of 180 months in federal prison to be followed by 60 months of supervised release.    There is no parole in the federal system.   The case was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) and the Spartanburg County Sheriff’s Office. Assistant United States Attorney Max Cauthen prosecuted the case.    This case was prosecuted as part of the joint federal,… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

You are doing good, but the number of incidents that you recite is very small when compared to the number of counties in all of the Southern states. I’m still going with JH1961’s assertion.

JSNMGC

His assertion was: “Southern LEOs won’t become ATF’s lackeys, and the ATF doesn’t have enough manpower to enforce such dictates.” This comment was in reference to legislation requiring “southern LEOs” to cooperate. I’m not sure that legislation even exists, but it’s clear that a certain percentage of “southern LEOs” voluntarily cooperate with the BATFE. I even excluded “southern” state, city, and town LEOs from the examples, even though they are clearly “southern LEOs.” His assertion was incorrect – “southern LEOs” not only will cooperate with the BATFE, a certain percentage of them have been doing so for quite some time.… Read more »

JSNMGC

Another case of “southern” sheriffs cooperating with the BATFE:  Mount Pleasant Man Sentenced to More Than 15 Years for Firearm Possession  “United States Attorney Peter M. McCoy, Jr., announced today that Eric Martin Scott, Jr., 25, of Mount Pleasant, was sentenced to more than 15 years in federal prison after pleading guilty to being a felon in possession of a firearm.   ‘Keeping our communities safe is a top priority of our office,’ said U.S. Attorney McCoy.    United States District Court Judge David C. Norton sentenced Scott to 188 months in federal prison, to be followed by a five-year… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by JSNMGC
musicman44mag

I can’t believe you have a problem with different agencies working together to put garbage back in the can where it belongs if it cannot stay within the law.

Cases where felons are in possession of something they should not have and found guilty should be something you support, not something you are against. I can’t believe you support breaking the law or criminals.

JSNMGC

“I can’t believe you have a problem with different agencies working together to put garbage back in the can where it belongs if it cannot stay within the law. Cases where felons are in possession of something they should not have and found guilty should be something you support, not something you are against. I can’t believe you support breaking the law or criminals.” ~ mm44m I’m all for arresting murderers, rapists, robbers, etc. (for murdering, raping, robbing, etc.). I believe there are gun laws that are unconscionable (and more on the way). I have no ill-will towards someone who… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by JSNMGC
Stag

Adults should be able to possess whatever they want as long as that possession doesn’t violate the rights of another.

musicman44mag

I will admit that there are some laws that make you a felon that should not prohibit someone from carrying a firearm but if they have committed a robbery, rape, violent crime or theft with a gun they should not ever be allowed to carry because at one time they violated the rights of the people.

As for new laws coming down the pipline regarding what I can or cannot own or what I have to put a serial number on or register, they can all go _ themselves.

Russn8r

You know he doesn’t support real criminals. Why attack him with strawman accusations contrary to Ammoland policy? Prohibited status for “felons” doesn’t cut real crime, it cuts gun ownership. These laws can be, are, and are intended to be used against decent Americans, not just violent mens rea criminals. Gun grabbers can’t wait to make you a “felon” for a “crime” that should be legal & was legal 100 years ago, if you’re not a “felon” already. It’s sad how many 2A advocates further the enemy’s agenda & assumptions. If we can trust a felon with access to guns, it’s… Read more »

musicman44mag

Cherry picker and unable to put together the complete picture of what was said. Good night Goldie.

Russn8r

Stop lying, attacking and projecting – all Demokkkrat tactics. Good night, hypocrite.

musicman44mag

There are always exceptions to everything. Come on man!

JSNMGC

“There are always exceptions to everything. Come on man!”

What’s your point?

Wild Bill

I’m thinking that his point is that there are exceptions to everything. I could be wrong.

JSNMGC

“I’m thinking that his point is that there are exceptions to everything. I could be wrong.” ~ Wild Bill

It’s possible he wrote that response to me relating to a specifc comment I wrote. It’s hard to tell what people are responding to once a thread has a lot of comments.

Oldman

That’s why you should give it up before you lose your issue and keep inviting everyone to argue with you. It’s hard to make a reasonable argument when you have lost your space. I think that should satisfy me for the present time. Have a good day, Sir.

CourageousLion

http://CSPoA.org…get behind a Sheriff who will obey his oath of office.

Wild Bill

My county’s sheriff declared the county a Second Amendment sanctuary state.

JSNMGC
  • That was done by the county commissioners, not the sheriff at that time.
  • It was done before the current sheriff was in office.
  • I doesn’t mean much.
  • The current sheriff, sheriff deputies, small town cops in that county, and Texas highway patrol employees will still enforce any gun law against any person they want to enforce it against.
Wild Bill

I don’t think that you know which county I live in. Which county are you talking about?

Last edited 1 month ago by Wild Bill
JSNMGC

I have avoided stating the county because I don’t believe people should do that to other posters. You made a comment some time ago about something specific in the county.

Research what I wrote and see if it applies to the county you live in.

Last edited 1 month ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

I decline your homework assignment. Spit it out.

Russn8r

I decline your homework assignment and give you one: Prove southern cops never collaborate with and cover for federales.

Wild Bill

Never and always are seldom provable. That is a third grade trap.

Last edited 1 month ago by Wild Bill
Wild Bill

I knew that it was another prevarication.

JSNMGC

“I decline your homework assignment. Spit it out.” ~ Wild Bill

If I answer your question, will you indicate if I am correct? You ask a lot of questions, but don’t like answering questions.

Wild Bill

Sure, I’ll tell you if you are right.

JSNMGC

Again, I wouldn’t have mentioned the specific location, but since you asked, it appears as though you live in Wood County. Do you live in Wood County?

Wild Bill

Nope. Although, it is interesting that you would work so hard to find me.

JSNMGC

I didn’t work hard at all. I just remembered you making a comment about Yantis. It took me less than a minute to search for “Yantis” in Ammoland and it returned these comments you made: “Ok, let me know when you arrive in Yantis. There is only one cafe. Just ask for Wild Bill or that really tall red headed guy, around lunch time. I’ll introduce you to the county sheriff. MC, brother.” ~ Wild Bill “@BR, Sorry, brother … Yantis, TX. Home of the very prestigious Masonic Lodge Turkey Shoot, that kicks off the holiday season.” ~ Wild Bill… Read more »

Last edited 28 days ago by JSNMGC
Wild Bill

My place in not in Yantis. I live on a ranch, remember?
You should com on down for the very prestigious Yantis Masonic Lodge Turkey Shoot.

JSNMGC

Yes, I remember you indicated you live on a ranch and therefore it would be unlikely you live in the city limits of Yantis.

With so many comments about Yantis, it appeared as though that may be the town you frequent, therefore, in descending order of probability, it would be logical (but not a certainty) that you live in either:

  • Wood County;
  • Hopkins County; or
  • Rains County.
Last edited 28 days ago by JSNMGC
musicman44mag

This is what I am talking about. Come on man. In my county the Sheriff supported the 2nd amendment sanctuary vote and the people voted to make us that way. Yet you argued all about how sheriffs are against this that and the other thing and how they will join the AFT bla bla bla while stating that my sheriff was against it. Proof you don’t always know what you are talking about. It’s a broken record with you. That’s why I say, come on man. Give us all a break, PLEASE. I am tired of reading the same old… Read more »

JSNMGC

Yes, now I understand the point your are making, but you’re wrong.

I support good LEOs.

I gave examples of state, county, and city/town LEOs cooperating with the BATFE to enforce unconscionable firearm laws.

I don’t support that behavior. If you do, we disagree.

I disagree with your view that all felons should be prohibited from owning a firearm.

We disagree on taxes and the death penalty as well.

BTW, you bounce back and forth between being “aggressive” and playing the victim.

musicman44mag

Man, you use so many demonkkkrat tactics. If anyone bounces around here it is you and the weight of you saying I am wrong has about the same weight as air, hot air. It’s like as if you hate cops 90 percent of the time. Only when cornered do you support them. Bouncy bouncy!!!! If you would have bothered to have read and retained all that I have said in the past, you would see many times were I don’t think all felony’s should make it to where felons are not able to carry but it is the law and… Read more »

JSNMGC

If you dial-down the emotions, we can discuss the topics. You wrote: “Who cares who joined what or did what when it comes to enforcing the law? Felons don’t have the right to own or carry a gun, get over it.” I don’t support local LEOs who work with the BATFE to enforce laws that prohibit all sorts of ex-felons from owning a firearm. People who make the point that all ex-felons have the right to own firearms have a good point and if violent criminals served an appropriate amount of time incarcerated, I would probably agree with them. As… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by JSNMGC
musicman44mag

I realize that. The problem is that you think your opinion is the only one that is right and if someone doesn’t agree with you, you pound and pound on them just like the left does. Try and put the complete picture together for a change. Maybe you will wake up to the realization of what others have told you about yourself.

Drop the mike.

JSNMGC

You revert to high-level comments and the appeal to a crowd again.   I think you are entitled to your opinion about matters of opinion (but other people may disagree with your opinion). Sometimes you disagree with things that are facts, and you base your conclusion on your feelings.   Should taxes be increased even more on the high earners? That’s a matter of opinion. Should the death penalty be expanded? That’s a matter of opinion. “Tax the Rich” is the rallying cry of socialists not “conservatives.” That’s a fact. AOC wore a “Tax the Rich” dress. That’s a fact. The top 10% of earners… Read more »

musicman44mag

I was asked to stop feeding the Trolls so the persistent argument would not go on.
Consider yourself starved for attention, starved from argument and starved from my attention.

Austa.

JSNMGC

“I was asked to stop feeding the Trolls so the persistent argument would not go on.
Consider yourself starved for attention, starved from argument and starved from my attention.

Austa.” ~ mm44m

That’s one way out.

Russn8r

Good Demokkkrat style projection technique, Comrade! If you stopped feeding trolls you’d starve.

Wild Bill

You are smart to take that advice. I have to learn the hard way … over and over again. I just hate backing down from a fight. And any knowledge that I give them is neither appreciated nor retained.

CourageousLion

Pretty much shows he’s a Constitutional Sheriff then. You might want to Email him and get him involved with the CSPoA! http://cspoa.org

Wild Bill

What is this Constitutional Sheriff thing … a sheriff that follows the Constitution or a movement? Please explain.

CourageousLion

There are numerous videos explaining it on that website. Please take five minutes and check it out. As to “a sheriff that follows the Constitution or a movement?” BOTH

Last edited 29 days ago by CourageousLion
Wild Bill

No, that is a recipe for picking up viruses. What is your definition of constitutional sheriff?

swmft

bureau of narcotics was dissolved for bad/abusive behavior , atf should go same way ,this next congress should abolish them ,and remove any mention from the budget ,pensions gone!

Darkman

I have said repeatedly on this site and others. The Most dangerous part of the government in regards to the destruction of Our Freedoms and Liberties. Comes from the Nameless, faceless Federal Bureaucracy. That isn’t required. to answer for the actions the the voters. 90% of all the regulations that effect our lives come directly from IT. Both Republican and Democrat politicians are responsible for it’s creation and was done so they could get regulations passed in the Darkness of the Bureaucracy. That would Never pass the Muster of a vote in the Light of Day and full view of… Read more »

Bigfootbob

Exactly. They have abdicated their duties for Plausible Deniability for reelection purposes. It’s time for ending administrative law in the Federal and State government’s. That is going to be one very tough row to hoe because the chattering classes will start a cacophony of that action is——-[fill in the blank] by the usual mind numbed useful idiots that are willing to cede the Liberty for perceived SAFETY. COVIDIOTS prove there are many out there. Just look at the youngsters still wearing face diapers OUTSIDE!!! Totally programmed serfs.

swmft

they wear something that is more likely to get them sick than prevent spread, stupid beyond stupid, gas masks dont even filter small enough to be effective against a virus, this was found out the hard way in 1918, Israel found out even the new ones dont help

CourageousLion

Can’t filter out a non existent “thing”.

CourageousLion

We need to get back to COMMON LAW. PERIOD! NO VICTIM, NO CRIME. End of story.

CourageousLion

I got down voted for this? Geezzzz what kind of total morons visit this page?

CourageousLion

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance. Sound familiar?

CourageousLion

LOL! That’s a hoot. I get down voted for quoting a sentence out of the Declaration of Independence! How quaint!

Russn8r

They don’t visit. They live here. Oathbreaker Trolls. This is their bridge.

Last edited 1 month ago by Russn8r
Russn8r

Another Dec of Indy quote the Oathbreaker Posse hates:

“For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury”

CourageousLion

There in lies the problem Russ…people would have to have been taught the precepts that are embedded in the Constitution in public school instead of the Communist Manifesto. And apparently there are a lot of COMMUNIST slimeball trolls that frequent this site.

Russn8r

Yep. With true school choice the poor & middle class could afford to vote with their wallets & feet as in the private sector and escape the gvt-union indoctrination camps. Vouchers.

Happy Easter

Last edited 29 days ago by Russn8r
Wild Bill

I don’t think that is why.