ATF Unveils Pistol Brace Rule…Everything Is An SBR!

SB Tactical Stabilizing Braces
SB Tactical Stabilizing Braces

WASHINGTON, D.C. -(Ammoland.com)- The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) released its final rule surrounding pistol stabilizing devices killing off the market for the items unless court challenges prove successful.

The new rule (ATF final rule 2021R-08F) was published on the ATF’s website today and is set to be posted on the Federal Register on Monday, one day before the industry’s largest trade show, SHOT Show. The regulation will affect millions of Americans that currently own pistol stabilizing devices. What has been considered pistols for years will now be regarded as short barreled rifles (SBR) and be subjected to the National Firearms Act (NFA).

The proposed rule used a form known as “Worksheet 4999” to determine if a firearm equipped with a pistol brace would be considered an SBR by using a point system. The ATF ditched the form in favor of a widespread declaration that almost every pistol equipped with a brace of any kind would be considered an SBR.

“Worksheet 4999 was intended to ensure uniform consideration and application of the statutory definition of those terms. Based on the comments received, the Department agrees that the proposed Worksheet 4999 and point system did not achieve these intended purposes,” the Final Rule reads.

Under the new rule, any firearm that is “designed or redesigned made or remade and intended to be fired from the shoulder” will be considered an SBR.

This designation includes devices such as pistol stabilizing braces which the ATF assumes the shooter installed to be able to shoulder the gun. Also, if a firearm merely has the surface area that would allow it to be fired from the shoulder, the ATF might consider it an SBR if it has a weight or length consistent with a rifle.

ATF Releases Final Version of Pistol Brace Rule
ATF Releases Final Version of Pistol Brace Rule

Any pistol with a length of pull that is consistent with that of what would be found in a rifle would be considered an SBR. Any adjustable attachments, such as a multi-position buffer tube, would also automatically make the pistol an SBR. If the shooter places an optic on their firearm that requires an eye relief that is consistent with what’s used on a rifle, such as a scope, then that gun will also be considered a short barreled rifle. If a firearm has the surface area to be fired from the shoulder, such as a firearm equipped with a nonadjustable buffer tube, then that will be considered an SBR, basically making every AR-15 pistol and SBR.

“Whether the surface area that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder is created by a buffer tube, receiver extension, or any other accessory, component, or other rearward attachment that is necessary for the cycle of operations,” the document reads.

The ATF will also look at marketing material offered by the manufacturer to determine if installing that device on a firearm will convert it to an SBR. Several lawsuits involve companies suing over California’s law preventing the advertisement of firearms to people under the age of 18, including safety classes.

The ATF will also look at how the people in the firearms community use a gun to determine whether it is an SBR. You could use a device as intended by the manufacturer and still violate the rule if others use it in a way that is not consistent with how the manufacturer designed the device to be used.

There is a 120-day grace period to apply for a tax stamp for any device now considered an SBR that was previously considered a pistol.

Although the ATF states a 120-day grace period to register a pistol as an SBR, the ATF only promises not to enforce NFA rules on these devices for 60 days. The ATF will give a tax forbearance for the $200 tax stamp fee. A tax forbearance means that the ATF will not collect the $200 tax fee, although, by the law, you still owe the fee; it just will not be collected. The rule is set up the way it is because the ATF cannot waive a tax.

Gun owners must use e-Forms to file for the tax stamp. Only individuals would qualify for the tax stamp on devices with pistol stabilizing braces. If someone wanted to put the firearm into a trust, they must first register as an individual and then pay the $200 transfer fee to transfer it into a trust. Many people who own NFA items prefer having their firearms in a trust.

Some states do not allow for SBRs. Gun owners in those states do have options.

They could add a 16-inch or greater barrel, converting the firearm from a pistol into a rifle. In the past, the ATF has stated that a pistol could never be converted into a rifle, but the regulation seems to change this determination. The pistol stabilizing device could also be removed, and the gun owner can modify their firearms not to be able to accept a pistol brace. The gun owner also has the option of destroying the firearm. The final option would be turning the gun into the ATF for zero compensation.

The new regulation is expected to cost gun owners over $260 million. It is expected to cost the federal government over $3 million. In addition to the cost, it will put an increasing burden on the already overwhelmed NFA division of the ATF. the ATF claims that the average wait time will be 90 days, although Silencer Shop is showing a wait time of eight months for a tax stamp. Not only will it bog down the new tax stamp applications for SBRs, but it might drastically increase the wait time for other NFA items, such as sound suppressors.

There will be challenges to the new rule. The Second Amendment Foundation has an ongoing case in a federal District Court in North Dakota over the new regulation. Other legal challenges are expected shortly from other Second Amendment organizations.

Ammoland News reached out to SB tactical for a comment on the final rule but has not received one at the time of this writing.


About John Crump

John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.

John Crump

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Arizona

The regulation is unconstitutional on its face, and through it BATFE assumes powers of Congress to create criminal law. SCOTUS already ruled agencies may not alter or create law nor use deference for criminal law issues. BATFE is off its rocker claiming a buffer tube is a stock and AR pistols are all SBR’s. Time to abolish the unconstitutional f squad and shtcan the NFA in its entirety.

musicman44mag

I think we need to add more agencies to the list.

Oregoneistan

Arizona

Agreed. Most departments and agencies are completely lacking in Constitutional authority, ie, were not allowed to be established under the Constitution. We can abolish dept of miseducation and save billions of tax dollars while improving education and ending woke indoctrination as step one. The termination of HUD can be step two.

musicman44mag

Oh God yes on the HUD and then stop hiring them and giving them state jobs. All you do is make state workers lazier and less intelligent and the white people have to carry the load. If they complain they are racist and could face dismissal, so I was told by upper management. Just shut up, do the work and don’t complain by the way you are producing to much and setting a bad example for others, so you need to slow down. I hate unions.

CourageousLion

It should have never been created in the first place. Obviously the constitution was being used by governmental functionaries in 1934 also.

Steve

I agree 100%. However, the foundation of your argument is that it is Unconstitutional and that SCOTUS has already ruled against these agencies – again, absolutely correct. But, what happens when 2 or more Conservative SCOTUS Justices meet an “unfortunate early demise” with a now Democrat controlled Senate? How will all this fall out? And anyone who thinks it cannot happen – think again and remember Antonin Scalia.

BenV

Since the pistol brace was first designed for disabled shooters, could this regulation, (at least for actual disabled shooters) be illegal under the American with Disabilities Act?

Arizona

It is indeed.

musicman44mag

Only if the government wants to acknowledge it’s own rules. You know, rules for the but not for me!!!!!

Like when they say that standard capacity magazines will be against the law in Oregoneistan unless it has For government or official use only on it if the new law is passed. That means rules for thee but not for me. Big Brother.

Bozz

Will you then have to get a doctor’s note or prescription to use a brace?

CaptainKerosene

Just cut your arm off to please. Recommended if you’re right handed cut the right arm off. Next too many trigger fingers!

Watch um

I am disabled, I am on oxygen continuously and use a power chair or an electric scooter. I have a Roni attachment for my Glock pistol so that I can shoot while sitting in my power chair or scooter. I am 80 years old but continue to be able to shoot because of the stability of the brace that my pistol is temporarily installed in it

Oldman

As far as the Roni attachment goes, the ATF has gone from legal as long as you don’t shoulder it, to legal even if you do shoulder it, and now illegal to have unless you register it. So, my dumb question is: what if you don’t have a pistol installed in? Is that piece of plastic still considered to be a SBR? Do we throw it in the garbage or send it to the ATF? Do we have to throw away the receipt? Does CAA MCK keep records as to whom has bought them? Inquiring minds want to know……….One thing… Read more »

StLPro2A

ATF considers having possession of one or more full auto parts….sear, 3-position safety, third hole receiver, et el….to be same as a complete full auto firearm. under the concept of “constructive possession.” This would appear to apply to having an arm brace not attached to a firearm, by itself.

Oldman

Really? That’s ludicrous! I have seen things similar in use by folks using metal detectors and even fishing poles.

CourageousLion

Soon they will use precogs to determine if you even THOUGHT about having those parts and you will spend 10 years in a gulag and pay $250,000 fine because the CONSTITUTION is null and void according to them.

USMC0351Grunt

I want the ATF to tell me what I’m thinking right now!

Ope

USMC, I’m not sure those useless SOB’s would want to know what I’m thinking about them right now.

Steve

YOU might end up in a gulag and pay 250k, I won’t. A lot of “they”, aka Marxists, will be pushing up daisies before this Airborne Special Forces Veteran goes to a gulag.

Oldman

So obviously you know much more than I about all this stuff. Last year my son picked up a MP 15-22 for his family and it came with a stabilizing brace as part of the stock. This too would be illegal, now?

musicman44mag

Yes, from what I read unless I am full of shit. Anything that extends beyond the back of the AR makes it a rifle. That includes buffer tubes that don’t have the rail with the holes in it for a but stock. But, they forgot about their rules regarding that a case that does not neck down it a pistol cartridge and a case that necks down is a rifle cartridge, so they are in argument with themselves. A pistol with a brace should not be considered a SBR unless you throw out their own rules regarding cartriges that determine… Read more »

buzzsaw

Hmmm. Does this mean that my Kel-Tec P-40 with a .357 SIG barrel is a rifle? If it is a rifle, then it is a short -barreled rifle since the barrel is only about 3.2 inches long. However, it does lack a stock, brace or even a reasonable means of attaching one. In light of the oath that all federal employees take as a legal condition of employment that includes the phrase “…to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic” the only legal, moral, and honorable thing the BATFE can do is to immediately stop acting… Read more »

musicman44mag

Amen to that one. You pledge allegiance and support of the constitution while knowing that your job is to break it at all costs to subdue the pleebs and surfs but hey why should they care, they get paid to break the constitution.

Arizona

Hypocrisy is their specialty. They’ll just make up or redefine the terms yet again! It will be a cis-Gen pistol caliber short barreled rifle. The agency exists solely to infringe and violate the civil rights of citizens.

Roland T. Gunner

The entire voncept of “constructive posession” needs to be brought into lawsuit(s), as many and as often as is necessary to get it struck down. One of thoae things that is so preposterous, unconstitutional, unethical and immoral as to defy understanding how it weaseled its way into our legal system.

Jyst becauae I am not committing ××× act now, does not mean I forfeit my right as a self determining, free man to commit ××× act in the future.

And until I do, I HAVE NOT!

Orion

possession of those specific fcg parts by themselves ( hammer, trigger, safety, disconnector, auto sear)are no federal violation. those specific parts while in possession of a semi lower are where one crosses over the line.
lowers with third holes have been determined as full autos for decades.

CourageousLion

They would call it “constructive intention”. If you have the brace and a pistol and the Minority Report division would show you INTENDED to use it as an SBR, thus you are a bad person and should be shunned by all of humanity due to your heinous life threating activity. Meanwhile in Afghanistan…thousands up thousands of Taliban are saying thank you to Chairman Xiden for the free M4 rifles/sbr/MACHINE GUNS.

musicman44mag

The list of weapons is a hell of a lot larger than that.

3manfan

This rule has nothing to do with Ronis or clones, it pertains to AR Pistols only. A Roni is not an AR Pistol.

musicman44mag

It looks like a Roni has a bracket that is held to ones shoulder that makes the pistol work more like a rifle. According to the data and images on this post that makes it a rifle. My argument is according to the ATF a straight walled cartridge is a pistol cartridge and a necked down is a rifle. They forgot their own rules when they made the new I am going to kiss Uncle Joe Kamalatoe Obidens ass and F We the People. Oregoneistan, we aren’t dummies here when it comes to our guns. You want dummies, go to… Read more »

3manfan

Who is Oregoneistan?
Not seeing him in this thread.

Oldvet

3man … Oregonestan is the communist state of oregone , just like kkkalifornicate or commiefornia

Last edited 14 days ago by Oldvet
Chuck

Don’t forget Commierado. Ran by the Arse Spelunker Pole(up his)Arse.
The former gov-ner, now Senator Lickshispooper (Hickenlooper) and Sen. Bennett are both as Anti-Gun as you can get.
Denver and its surrounding communes run the State. Smaller communities and rural Coloradoans have no say in our governence.

musicman44mag

Myself and anyone who disagrees with what our government is doing. Free housing and support for illegals, shoot up centers for the druggies, no penalties for drugs in possession and especially the new gun laws and free abortions paid for by the tax payers for anyone that does not live in a we will kill your baby state.

Got it?

3manfan

Those from Oregon are known as a Oregonian, not a ‘Oregoneistan’.

Only dummies don’t know that.

Being from the Free State of Arizona, I know these things.

Oldvet

3man … you got a lot of catching up to do and I would say your free state is in danger of turning red it’s already purple ! Now how much of that don’t you understand . Example who did you just elect governor ?

3manfan

You’re not the only ‘old vet’ in existence Hoss, there are plenty of us, so don’t presuppose that you know more than I or others. About anything. As to your final point, it’s exactly why I’m moving BACK to FL in 2 months after giving AZ 10 years of my life only to see it go from Red to Purple to now Blue.

Oldvet

Never claimed to know more than any one you are new here . And I don’t show my arse by arguing with any one that I do .

Oldvet

Besides YOU ASKED

3manfan

I’m not new here at all. Just because I don’t post much doesn’t mean I haven’t been on this forum for as long as it’s been around.

Try not to lose any sleep over it.

Oldvet

Well Well Hey guys looks like we got another Russan8r wanabee

3manfan

You need a nap. It’ll make you less hostile..

Ope

Oldvet, it looks like Frick & Frack must still be on their imaginary months long fishing trip. They just seem to have disappeared. Gone! Lol. If their boat sunk on the Swanee it’s now just slimy river bottom. What an ending to poor Frick and Frack.

Oldvet

Ope … It was too good to last

Oldvet

Ope … SAYS he’s been here a long time . You ever seen him , unless he just changed his name again .

Ope

Oldvet, I don’t recall ever seeing that handle here before. We do need to keep watch out for F&F trying to crawfish back in.

Oldvet

Ope… “doesn’t mean I haven’t been on this forum as long as it’s been around” sound’s like it .

Considerthis

The handle “3manfan” is a lot like One Man Band. Not really attempting to produce music people want to hear but really just seeking attention.

Oldvet

Consider… Agreed just like the screamers can’t sing either .

Oldvet

Oops That was suppose to be turning BLUE

musicman44mag

Being from the free state of AZ you should know not to tell someone who lives in another state what it is like or who they are. That’s like me saying that AZ is a blue state based on who YOU voted for this year. Everyone selected to go to the white house were demonrats so according to your stats, AZ is communist.

How about that.

3manfan

You need a nap. It’ll make you less hostile..

musicman44mag

Lol, you are the one attacking others by your usage of the word dummy, not me. Let me axe you a question. Does three-man fan mean you prefer yourself and two other men? SICK, you would fit right in if you lived in Portland or Seattle or San Francisco. Which one did you come from first before you moved to AZ and f’d it up voting for demonratts.

Oregoneistan

Oldvet

mm… He’s just another knows all tells all shows his ass (probably his best side ) Russian8r wannabe

musicman44mag

LOL, you got that right.

Oldvet

mm … Well mommy must have given him his pacifier and put him down for that nap .

Ope

Oldvet, plus he’s suppose to clean up her basement and make his bed.

musicman44mag

I wonder which hole she put it in to make him happy.

Oldvet

music … Well we have#2 of the 3manfan triway calls himself WeWereWarned

3manfan

Man…..you boys are like a bunch of old hens with your squabbling & hand wringing over someone that injects a touch of spirited debate into your little circle. You should go back & refresh your memory as to whom introduced the word ‘dummies’ into this conversation, because it was you. Never mind, you’ll probably not be able to find it so I’ll do it for you: Oregoneistan, we aren’t dummies here when it comes to our guns. You want dummies, go to Portland and Eugene, they are in abundance there. I’ve been watching the same group of you guys bicker… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by 3manfan
Oldvet

HA HA HA that’s rich

Oldvet

you have proven you can’t sit 5 minutes with out opening your mouth .

Oldvet

Guess we can give him the same treatment as russan8r and harold and ignore it .

musicman44mag

Well, you have your explanation of what Alludes means but I think what you meant to say was illusion. Dale Sr. was no way the greatest racer ever. He drove nascar. Tell me, how did he do in Indy, how well did he do driving for NHRA, how well did he do driving the Baha 1,000, DAKAR or for the world of outlaws for that matter. I see where you have your priorities and they fall very low in the spectrum of what an outstanding human being should be. Too bad, so sad. As for the usage of the word… Read more »

Oldvet

mm … I think you had the 3man definition down right .

Roland T. Gunner

Yuh, Earnhardt was great NASCAR, but greatest racer ever? I have trouble with my personal biases too, because skill and potentiial are not the same as 1st place finishes; but try Dave McDonald, Peter Revson, our famous homegrown prodigy A.J. Foyt, and yes, Ken Miles, who is now practically a household name, fifty-some years later.

Ope

Earnhardt was among the best in NASCAR, but I think Richard Petty owns it. INDY open wheel I believe AJ Foyt was top dog.

Last edited 13 days ago by Ope
musicman44mag

Not that I like him all that much but I think Kyle Bush has more nascar wins than anyone. I usually vote for the underdog just like I vote for the bad guy in wrestling. So many people hate him because he is doing his job the right way. Like lost in space, everyone hated Dr. Smith but without him the show would have been boring. LOL Without Kyle Larson and Bubba, Nascar would have never become woke. Love Kyle, Hate bubba, hate Suarez. Bubba because when he had a chance to apologize for his lies and he chose to… Read more »

Bubba

I take offense to that “hate Bubba” part. 😉

Hate Wallace instead. 🙂

musicman44mag

Sorry about that. I didn’t mean you I meant the bubba race car driver that is a POS. You on the other hand are a good and strong contributor to Ammoland and a nice person. LOL. Did I kiss it good enough? Lol. Do I need to do more? I don’t know how to put the imogies on there with the smiley face but the one with tears coming out is the one I would choose. I should be more considerate and thoughtful when I start using names regarding who I hate or not. I did not like Rusty Wallace… Read more »

Oldvet

mm …Good question

Chuck

You mean Arizona where Maricopa County gets to ignore election rules and elect that evil C*nt Hobbs to rule over you peones?

Ope

I don’t know what the hell has happened to Arizona. Lake won that race by a landslide.

Roland T. Gunner

Peones? Do you plant yours all in a single bed, or in individual pots?

Oldman

I think he meant peons… peonies are spelt like I just typed, but we all know what you meant….LOL

MP71

Oregoneistan is M44’s derogatory nickname for his state. When looking at the world, places that have “stan” as the suffix in their name are usually 3rd world s***holes that are incredibly corrupt.

Last edited 14 days ago by MP71
Considerthis

The wrist brace was designed,marketed, and sold for a variety of weapon platforms ( AR, AK, HK, Uzi and others ). The statement ” pertains to AR pistols only ”
is a false statement. You are either misinformed or willfully attempting to spread misinformation.

3manfan

This rule has nothing to do with Ronis or clones, it pertains to AR Pistols only. A Roni is not an AR Pistol.

Oldman

Well, if what you say is true, than why do they show pictures of all 3 generations of micro ronis in this article under glock type handguns in the article we are commenting on?

3manfan

No idea other than some authors simply add pics of weapons to articles that have no actual bearing on a given article, possibly the Agent that prepared that release did the same. The ATF made its ruling on Roni conversions & those like it back in 2010 & it’s my understanding that this new ruling only pertains to AR pistols. There’d be no need for the ATF to include a previously regulated item in a new ruling (like this new one), unless they are abandoning their prior ruling of 2010 & lumping the Roni into this new one……but I’ve not… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by 3manfan
musicman44mag

Any weapon with an extrusion from the rear that can be used as a shoulder device. What more do you need to understand other than me splaining it to you because you don’t seem to understand the text presented to you in this article.

Oregoneistan

Chuck

ATF had previously rule Bump Stocks as accessories, but changed their mind after the Vegas shooting and Trump’s green light to ban them. So they’ve changed their minds at least once before now. There may be other times they’ve done this. I’ve not researched the the topic. ATF’s new description of how a Bump Stock makes the gun fully automatic is outright ridiculous. Anyone who knows anything about how Semi-Autos function can point out their errors they made, it’s that bad. Hopefully now that the 5th Circuit Court has decided the rule is Unconstitutional, and pointed out ATF’s errors, when… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner

This is at least the third time BUTF*** has changed their mind, and their written policy statement, regarding arm braces.

Roland T. Gunner

AR’s, AK’s, Ingram/MAC’s and clones, smoothbore “non-shotgun” firearms, MP5 and B&T clones, Ruger PCC and 10/22 Charger pistols, anything that bolts to the back of a Glock or that a Glock stuffs into…

And its going to cost me thousands of $$$ to make all of mine compliant without making many of them close to useless firearms, because I refuse to register another damned thing under the NFA.

Last edited 13 days ago by Roland T. Gunner
musicman44mag

Yep.

Oldman

now that everyone is all hot and bothered about this, I read the ruling from the link not from an author of the story that we are posting on. apparently they are showing pictures and they said in the Ruling that the micros are SBRs. I was just trying to get confirmation from anyone other than myself that I understood what I read. I AM old, you know?

musicman44mag

Dont feel alone. Two more months and I will be 65 and I am tired of snot nose punks coming out here talking about stuff they think they know but were told and taught in schools that teach CRT, leave out the important lessons about how the constitution came about, what it meant, what it stood for and what it means and not the newer leftist interpretation. I am sure you read this before but my great Neice will be a teacher next year in Oregoneistan. She thinks George crossed the Delaware to kill the Indians and that Pearl Harbor… Read more »

Oldman

I get it now. 3mfan did not read the ruling and relied on what he thought he knew from 2010.. Hell, in 2010 they were legal, but you werenot allowed to shoulder them. Tell me how they thought they could discern if you had ever shouldered it. Bright bunch, eh?

Oh about turning 65? You could be 10 years older, like me and I hope you make it.

musicman44mag

Thank you for the kind words. Lets hope ammoland is still here so we can celebrate together.

musicman44mag

I do roll with it but I am much less patient than I used to be and my tolerance for idiots is waning.

musicman44mag

Maybe you should have started by asking him if he knew who Tull was and told him is a very famous and excellent musician

musicman44mag

Well, not all of us are open to strangers. My wife says I can strike up a conversation with anyone, I say she could pet a rabid dog and get away with it. Maybe he was having a bad day.

Ope

I wish now I had given him five bucks for a couple pictures. If I run across him again I will.

musicman44mag

Do you have a favorite? Mine is Hunting Girl. Awesome song.

Ope

I would say Locomotive Breath. Back in the early ‘70’s I was really into the Stones,Led Zeppelin, Who, Doors, etc.etc. hell I really liked just about all rock back in the day. It was all good! That was the golden era of rock, and we were there. I still remember cruising around with my girlfriend and going to Galveston or Freeport in my ‘66 Chevelle Malibu playing my 8 tracks. Great Times!

musicman44mag

Lol, I was talking about 8 tracks with a friend of mine today. I told him my first one was ‘the low spark of the high heeled boys” by traffic. He had never heard of them but he knew who Steve Winwood was. Then we got onto the topic of Steppen Wolf and our favorite song by them. We both like the pusher man the most. He didn’t remember 4 track, do you?
You had a nice car. My first car was a Rambler. LOL. Beat a few 57 Chevy’s with 283’s in them.

Ope

Four track was a little before my time.

musicman44mag

Just like 8 track it didn’t last too long because cassette blew 8 track out. It’s still around and I have a brief case full of them. Back in 79 or 80 I walked into Tower of records and looked around and couldn’t find any. I asked the young girl where the records were and she laughed and said they are special order and about 27 bucks because now everyone uses CD. I spent the next 5 months going to the auction buying records and cassette tapes. I just sold my Cheech and Chong Big Bamboo with the rolling paper… Read more »

musicman44mag

I think it was the only anti drug song in the day when everyone was taking drugs and pushing fee love man! Peace out! Missed Woodstock. To young and dad wouldn’t take me. Almost ran away from home for that one. Missed Jimmy and the best rendition of Star Spangled Banner ever played to this day. He never duplicated it the same himself. I had bootleg recordings of him in concerts from England that were not as good. Love to have seen Crosby Stills and Nash along with some others too. I live the days watching the cocert on tv… Read more »

musicman44mag

Opps. Talking to much. Awaiting approval. You might get to read it monday.

Oldvet

music… While you are waiting to be approved I read where Wyoming Joint Resolution 4 with support from both house and senate , WANTS to ban EV’s by the year 2035 !
I got almost all of this typed and they kicked me off clear to my note book page and of course lost all of it !

musicman44mag

I think that is great. Cold is an enemy to a battery. I have taken camera battery’s when the temp is in the 20s and used them until they stopped working because they were out of juice, put them in my shirt pocket under my coat and an hour later they work again for another 25 or 30 pictures. I wonder how much money the Feds are going to cut out of WY income because they will not comply. I am sure Obiden is going to have something written in. Fortunately, Montana and North Dakota is next door and they… Read more »

musicman44mag

my post posted and is no longer waiting review. Someone already down voted it.

musicman44mag

Zepplin how many more times in the beginning and then No Quarter on the live album, still my favorite. The Who, who are you? Doors comon baby light my fire, Stones Jumpin jack flash.
Mopar man.

Ope

All great songs.

Roland T. Gunner

‘Stones- Sympathy For The Devil!

Oldman

Speaking of Zeppelin; I cannot remember the exact year, but I and a bunch of friends and some of our girlfriends attended a concert at the Green Lake Aqua Theater in Seattle with Three Dog Night as the headliner. It was a normal thing-the smell of Mary Jane hung heavy in the air and some of our group had dropped some Psychedelics. It was a beautiful warm summer evening and life back then was gooood. The event started with a couple of local bands followed by a group no one had ever heard of. Led Zeppelin came on stage and… Read more »

musicman44mag

Wow, we might have bumped into each other. My first concert was in Seattle 77 somewhere close to the space needle, and I saw Nazareth. The lead vocalist had a broken leg and had to sit on a stool. The next one was Aerosmith who sucked. The lead vocalist was so drunk he could barely stand up and the band was so loud it was one gigantic blur even at the back of the building. I left early. My band wasn’t as good of course but sounded better than that. Never got to see Zepplin live with Bonham but saw… Read more »

Oldman

We would not have run into each other in ’77. I had kids by then and that part of my life was over. This concert was in the late ’60s,

musicman44mag

10 years makes a difference. You got to see bands that were breaking the music tradition and making a new sounds that changed America. To me it wasn’t Elvis.

Roland T. Gunner

The Doors

Oldvet

music… Can’t really come up with a favorite. There was soo much too like , I kinda lost interest with heavy metal .

musicman44mag

When Punk, Heavy Metal and Hair Bands came out I lost it. About the only new stuff I liked was Rush, Nirvana, Alice in Chains, two songs from Metalica and that’s it. I didn’t even like Van Halen though I respect his ability now. Really, about 1983, Hank Williams Jr. came out with a new rock sounding country and the country lead guitar was more rock than rock was so I switched. It wasn’t Charlie Daniels or Lynard Skynyrd but it was good. I rid myself of the rice rocket and bought horses, moved from town to the country, bought… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner

I cranked up Aqualung amd Locomotive Breath for my son, now 25, while riding around in his Challenger 392 a while back; he was not impressed

musicman44mag

That depends on what he is into. At 25 he could like country, Wrap, Screamo, or Hip hop. Anyone that likes that kind of music doesn’t like complicated. They like repetitive because it is easier to remember the words, you know the same ones every chorus and usually half the verse repeats in the next verse. See if he likes Rush. If he cant handle Rush and Tull then he doesn’t like refined hard to play music. He is into the groove man and I know each band sounds like the last, just like the cars of today look the… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner

Anybody asks, just tell ’em you are about halfway there.

Roland T. Gunner

“Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”

musicman44mag

Lol, so sad that I am laughing but it is because I know you know better than that. Sad because she really didn’t know the answer to that and many more history questions. Oregoneistan has done an excellent job of dumbing down our youth. Proof is that I think we rank about 40th or 45th in the nation when it comes to smarts. Proof is our last lesbian governess proclaimed tests are racist and eliminated them. If our children don’t know the real history of the USA and know only the woke revision of what it isn’t, our children will… Read more »

Chuck

That’s the way I read the attachment too. Looks like the ATF is trying to cover everything that could potentially have a stock or brace attached to it. Someone at ATF has put a lot of Unconstitutional thought into this.

musicman44mag

You have a problem with reading comprehension. Go back and read it again and if you have a problem, go up from your basement and ask your mommy. Maybe she can splain it to you.

Oregoneistan

Roland T. Gunner

You keep telling yourself that while you rot in a federal prison.

I am not name calling, but “chump” comes to mind.

Ansel Hazen

Weren’t they just slapped around over the bumpstock ruling and told they can’t make laws?

Ope

Ansel, yep.

totbs

This will be declared unconstitutional also. My hope is that there won’t be a single person in the US that applies for a tax stamp. I know it’s a long shot, but I can hope.

USMC0351Grunt

I thought that people with mental illnesses, such as narcissists, schizophrenia, ADD, ADHD, bipolar disorder aren’t even allowed to posses a firearm, let alone work for a federal agency that tries to change it’s mind every time it changes it’s underwear?

Last edited 15 days ago by USMC0351Grunt
musicman44mag

Yep and it all depends on how the wind is blowing or the president is blowing that day just like his buddy Trudeau and Xi Jinping and Putan, Ali Khamenei and more of his back door buddies.

Boom

Add zelenzsky to that list, remove Putin. Putin is actually on our side. Think about this for a min….

MikeRoss

Putin is most definitely NOT on our side, as he has regularly stated starting with his ‘Munich Speech’ in 2007. His hatred of the West, and the US in particular, has only become more vehement since then.

CourageousLion

Funny, Putin has also been quoted as saying that if we rise up against our psychopathic control freaks running “our” government he’d send in Spetznaz to help us. LOL!

Raconteur

Is that why Putin had his mouth-piece threaten NATO (that includes the US) with nukes? Next, you’ll be claiming the Foreign Intelligence Service of the Russian Federation is a subsidiary of the CIA and William Burns is best buds with Sergei Naryshkin. Wait.. Hmmm.. come to think on it…

totbs

You need to re-think your thinking on this. Take all the time you like.

CourageousLion

I’ve rethought it and ANYONE who is against the New World Order is on MY side.

CourageousLion

Putin is a nationalist which makes him a deadly enemy of the World Economic Forum asshats.

Ope

I heard Vladimir Putin is all ate up with cancer. I don’t think he will make it to 2024.

CourageousLion

Actually the list you mention is a prerequisite to be accepted in the ATF along with being a total psychopathic control freak.

Finnky

Well at least they simplified decisions surrounding compliance. Had intended to evaluate under worksheet scoring system and make modifications if necessary to make my 9mm remain a pistol. If having a buffer tube defines an SBR this is definitely no longer an option. Sucks that they are refusing trust registration. For those who choose to comply through registration this could put families at risk and complicate inheritance. Given time frames to get first tax stamp and then to get approval for transfer to trust – a significant number of current owners will pass away before completing the process. Anyone know… Read more »

Arizona

At least they just made it completely ridiculous and unconstitutional, rather than pretend their BS score sheet ( that said achieving a passing score could be overridden for any reason or no reason at all per FBATFE discretion) was legit, you mean? What a load of horse puckey.

Article I, Section 9, Clause 3:

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

For all who legally bought AR pistols with or without braces, they are still legal and must remain so to comply with the Constitution.

USMC0351Grunt

This is true, however, the BATFE is not a, “legislature”, therefore they are wasting taxpayer dollars acting as such under color of law which is no different that a common citizen going around with a police badge pretending to be a cop.

Last edited 15 days ago by USMC0351Grunt
totbs

There certainly has been no law passed by any duly elected representatives. That alone makes it unconstitutional.

CourageousLion
Roland T. Gunner

We don’ need no stupid constitution.

Roland T. Gunner

NFA item does not become illegal if you move to a new residence within your state of residence. You must file the proper form and recieve permission to transfer the item out of your state of residence; and I have been told that does not apply to suppressors.
There is a process to be approved to transfer your NFA items to a new state of residence, but I am not familiar with it. I’ll just stay in Texas.

Last edited 14 days ago by Roland T. Gunner
Raconteur

“Likely this is enough to convince many law abiding citizens to devalue compliance.”
Now, that is a very nice way of putting it.

Last edited 14 days ago by Raconteur
musicman44mag

Don’t turn them in or register them yet. I smell a change in the wind just like the bumpstock. We need a bigger change than that. FJB

Finnky

Courts are supposed to toss laws for vagueness. Seems like ATFs new “clarifying regulations support stripping SBRs and SBSs from the NFA. If we’ve gone nearly 90 years without figuring out what the law means – it is clearly too vague to be enforceable.
i’ve long wanted legislature to engage in common-sense gun control reform – stripping silencers and SBR/SBS from NFA for starters. However I’ll gladly accept binding court orders to do the same.

Josephus

Any pistol with a length of pull that is consistent with that of what would be found in a rifle would be considered an SBR.

So, if you have a bare buffer tube with no other attachments or locking rail, yet it will still have a LOP “consistent with the LOP of a rifle” – so it’s now an SBR?

These “people” are devoid of every virtue. Truly despicable.

Finnky

Have glanced through parts of the rule. No careful reading as of yet…. However they keep referring to factors to consider in making determination… among those factors is whether rearward extension is necessary for operation. This suggests that a pistol buffer tube does not make a rifle by itself, but if you added that same tube to something that doesn’t require it – then it would make a rifle. Seems they are trying to moderate their attack and be reasonable. In that process they only reveal their arbitrariness. Vague laws are unenforceable – doesn’t get much vaguer than a regulation… Read more »

Orion

yep. a 22LR AR pistol uses a totally self contained system; doesn’t need anything past the receiver to function. adding any type of buffer extension to one would seem to put these into the NFA class under this new rule. pure BS on a grand scale.

Arizona

Next they will claim all AR’s and AK’s must be registered as NFA items. Then six months later, BATFE will claim they are illegal machine guns, as they can “readily” be modified into such, during a full 8 hour day in a machine shop (their definition of readily). BATFE will demand surrender of all newly declared machine guns, which they previously required to be registered. Disarmament is their only goal.

Montana454Casull

Be patient and the SCOTUS will deal with this the same way they did with the bumpstock BS . The ATF is a bunch of over reaching clowns now days .

Bozz

I was almost sure this rule would fail and be turned over if based on the 4999. Now, with the wording of the rule, I’m not so sure. I think that’s why they ditched the 4999. Hoping GOA, SAF, and others will take this to court soon.

2gats

“I was gonna register all of mine…..” and then I realized F**K you tyrannical assholes…….

fixed it

IN Dave

@atf, F…you! No! That is all.

Trussman

The ATF missed their chance way back. They wrote the letters to the producers of the shockwave blade pistol braces and other manufacturers, stating that the products did not make an AR pistol into an NFA item. They followed that letter up with another letter that basically said, that misuse of their product by the consumer, still did not make their product an NFA item. Whoever wrote that second letter had some common sense and applied it properly. Where this whole thing got screwed up was with the first letter. They (ATF) let the cat out of the bag with… Read more »

USMC0351Grunt

They are a government agency, they are SUPPOSED to lack common sense, leadership and most of all, BALLS!

Ope

USMC, you just listed all the criteria expected from any alphabet agency in this country.

Roland T. Gunner

You forgot principles, ethics and morals.

TGP389

Here’s your decision tree.

Got an AR pistol? —>
Register it.

Rebarrel it.

Wait for court. —>

We win. Yay. OR —>

Put a MOE stock on it and say “screw ’em”

Last edited 14 days ago by TGP389
Finnky

Sorry but I find my brace more comfortable than MOE stock. Not as nice for cheek weld, but nice and stable for quick, short-range run & gun. Reduced muzzle energy is useful as well – I accidentally shot a pistol target with 223 and did no damage at all! Admittedly I was shooting PMC-gold which is a slightly reduced power load – but full power 556 from a 16″ barrel would probably have punched straight through the steel target. Pisses me off that they (AFT) keep claiming short barrels retain all the capability of full length rifles. May be true… Read more »

2gats

F**k atf and their extended families. Publish their home addresses. Fire them, impoverish them, NEVER ALLOW THESE NAZI PARASITES TO HOLD A POSITION OF HONOR IN THE U.S.

These rules are an unconstitutional slap in the face to every American. They violate Bruin and show the rogue, tyrannical, anti American nature of this agency (and the “representatives” who support and fund them)

Central PA Dan

A stabilizing brace is an attachment to a pistol that functionally turns it into a short-barreled rifle, similar to a sawed-off shotgun. Such weapons are considered particularly deadly as they offer the power of a traditional rifle, but are much easier to conceal.
Pulled this from an NBC article this morning.
Joe Public that is not educated on guns is being very mislead.
I am baffled at how adding a stock to a handgun makes it more powerful lol. And my AR pistol with a folding brace is far from easy to conceal lol.

Montana454Casull

I challenge them on that as my 454 Casull does not have a brace and I would guess it’s more powerful than any braced AR . I don’t picture 450 Bushmasters or 458 SOCOMs with a brace unless somebody want a broken forearm . LMFAO

Roland T. Gunner

I put a .450 together a year or so ago; drug out and dusted off an old M16A1 fixed stock.

Finnky

I considered adding a 450 bushmaster upper. Don’t think it’d be that big an issue putting it on braced-pistol – aka pseudo-SBR. For the most part I’ve only seen braced pistols used as pseudo-SBRs. AFT said it was OK, so what-the-F did they expect? Much as I dislike and disapprove of AFT, they are supposed to be law-enforcement and NFA is law. Thus classifying many braced pistols as SBRs is not purely incorrect – just morally and logically wrong. Since morals and logic are only vaguely related to the law – guess I cannot really blame AFT for this mess… Read more »

KCsmith

Well I was gonna register all of mine, but then I had this boating accident where they all sank to the bottom of the lake, and unfortunately I forgot which lake it was. Oh well.

Oldman

A little alzheimers? hee hee

Finnky

Channeling his inner biden.

— this is meant as jest – @KCsmith please do not think I’m saying you have anything in common with our chief-court-jester.

USMC0351Grunt

That’s okay, as soon as the search and recovery team raises that boat load of bumpstocks they will be available for you to try and find yours. Oddly it usually occurs about the time right after the SCOTUS posts a ruling?

Matt in Oklahoma

Sounds like I need to sue the government for allowing me to buy an SBR. After all it’s sooooo unsafe for the public and all right? They knew what it was when they approved that particular model and did the background check and how dangerous they are right?
I figure me and the lawyer will be able to afford several 16”ers and a lot of ammo when we are done

USMC0351Grunt

A class action suit against the federal government and all agencies that ENDANGERED US by ALLOWING us to gain access to these terribly morbid weapons.

DIYinSTL

According to the ATF, “The benefit of this rule is preventing manufacturers and individuals from violating the requirements of the NFA and GCA.”

Gee, if all it takes is a rule to prevent bad things from happening, maybe the ATF should issue rules to prevent murder, larceny, lying to the public while in office …

musicman44mag

WTF? So now I am looking at pistols that have a brace and they are considered to be a short barreled rifle? I thought the only way for it to be a SBR is if it shot a rifle caliber or if the cartridge was necked down. Too many rules, too many regulations, to much overreach by uncle Joe. You have to register it but we are not going to charge you. Let’s just say we are registering all ARs and not charging a fee or you can give it to us for free because even though you have it… Read more »

TheFoe

There is now, officially, NO incentive whatsoever to not just put a stock on your AR.

Bill

The Supreme Court needs to get off their collective butts and review the BATFE’s pronouncements on bump stocks, 80% “frames” and pistol braces and several other laws the BATFE has created over the years!
These un-elected non-members of congress (apparently) figure they can make and enforce laws as they see fit. They (BATFE) feel they can do whatever they want with no interference from any part of the government!

PistolGrip44

DO NOT COMPLY.

ashort

Great article: but to tell you the truth, all I want to know is where is “WE THE PEOPLE”, when they are needed the most to nip all of this in the bud, and finally abolish the NFA, GCA, Brady bill, AFT, and tones of other tyrannical infringing Constitutional rights violating BS laws and rules? Where are they?

Watch um

The ATF can’t waver the tax because it is a law but they can make law that only congress can. That is total BS and they know it as everyone who is a citizen should know Congress makes law not the ATF. I am so sick of congress and the government of the United States I want to puke. To listen to members of congress say “TO MY Distinguished colleague” when addressing each other on the floor of congress makes me sick. Fu*k every one of them, democrats and Republicans I despise the compete bunch and the bimbo who has… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner

Permenantly alter the firearm so it can no longer accept a brace? Or a stock? I dont think so, Scooter.

Finnky

@ John Crump — You state that tax amnesty only applies to individuals and cannot be used to register in a trust. While i’ve only glanced through parts of the regulation, i came across a footnote stating that “individual” refereed to legal entities including individuals, FFLs, corporations or trusts. While it is possible e-file precludes trusts, I suspect trust registration will be allowed under this program. Not wanting to subject myself or my family to these conditions, my intent is to keep my pistol a pistol if possible. Preferred method being withdrawal of this regulation, but modification if necessary. One… Read more »

Jayson

Well, Gee.. I stayed the course on my SureFire. I will with my PDW’s as well. Although the Pistol and Rifle Club I am a member at shares part of its vast ranges with days where LEO is on site for range work. That includes some of the local “ABC” groups. Now what.. ? gunna whip it out? I know that there is a “stay” pending the ATF drop.. at least we are preprimed for a (hopefully) quick show down with the Government. I saw Kevin McCarthy say he is going force the Government (we’ll see) to declassify the lie… Read more »

CourageousLion

There is one other option. Tell the ATF to FK off.

Roland T. Gunner

The verbage regarding “any adjustable buffer tube, receiver extension or attachment” and “fixed buffer tube” do sound as if they will consider the 99.9% of AR based pistols out there that use a receiver extension to house a recoil spring and buffer to be an SBR, with or without any brace or stock attached.

Roland T. Gunner

ATF has never stated a pistol cannot be made into a rifle. They tried to claim a pistol, once made into a rifle, could never be convertad back into pistol configuration; but the courts slapped their pee-pees down and told them they could not do that.

Orion

Thompson Center vs US was that case. late 1990s.

Dogma Factor

Forget the brace is now the time to make an SBR without paying a $200 tax stamp? Use a 80 percent lower, make up some sort of serial number to put on it and file the ATF paper work while there’s a 120 day grace period. ATF is going to be so overwhelmed with paper it will be years before it gets processed, and you though you had wait along time to get that barrel muffler. The ATF itself estimates five to seven million of the devices existing. The Congressional Research Service puts the number much higher at somewhere between… Read more »

Bubba

This could be just the case to throw out the NFA and make the FATF unconstitutional.
Here hoping!!!!!!!

Bterclinger

WWHB Do?

Roland T. Gunner

Break.out the big Solothurn?

USMC0351Grunt

THIS is why I carry condoms that I hand to ANY level of law enforcement up to and including federal agents, some border patrol, sheriff deputies, state troopers, etc when they start to lose focus on their jobs and oaths. I just hand them a condom and tell them to go Fk themselves. Seconds later I state, “HEY! THAT’S in concern for your safety, I wouldn’t want you to infect yourself!” They usually break out laughing after that. But it IS a very effective way to get their attention and get them to snap out of whatever mindset they trailed… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by USMC0351Grunt
Chuck

How is the Tax Stamp not a de facto registry? I’ve never heard a satisfactory explanation to that question. So either register your gun, and face further scrutiny and potential confiscation and criminal charges, or don’t register your pistol and face Felony Prosecution. This doesn’t get anymore Unconstitutional, and the Chevron Defense is/was a wrong SCOTUS decision. The only other alternative is to disassemble your AR or other pistol and convert it to a 16″ carbine or scatter and hide the parts My AR Pistol is a home build, so there’s no serial number. Even if I decided to accept… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by Chuck
Roland T. Gunner

The courts have started reining in Chevron Deference, but as of now, BUTF still just ignores the courts.

hippybiker

Who in the Hell died and put these Mother Humpers in charge?!

Roland T. Gunner

FDR would be my nominee.

JayWPB

What is the intent? Is an SBR a concealable rifle? What’s the difference between a concealable rifle and a pistol? Is a 15″ 22lr with a stock more dangerous than a .44mag revolver?
Hey ATF, how about some common sense here?
Concealable = handgun. Not concealable = rifle, shotgun, musket, cannon, whatever.
Concealable readily fits inside of a 6″x12″x18″ box. (Or whatever dimensions you decide.)
That’s all you need; two classifications.
Clear, concise, and enforceable.

Steve

My Mossberg Shockwave is indeed very concealable under any medium length jacket, a full size duster etc – and devastating if used at close range- why no restrictions? Ah, because I cannot put it up to my shoulder? Who knows. The ATF Rubes will continue to push these idiotic “definitions” until We the People finally say “enough”.

Rooster

Another possible option that I haven’t seen mentioned maybe the Deadfoot Arms system that eliminates the buffer tube.

CaptainKerosene

I wonder whether ATFE/BIDEN. will require amputation of an arm to complete the SBR application?
Then the firearms traditionally handguns will be called SBR too.

Boz

Fatf!!!

Watch um

Please forgive me for being so angry in my earlier post. I should not said such things about our elected officials.

Stag

They deserve much worse.

Roland T. Gunner

Oh yes you should have.

Boom

The devil’s gonna do what the devil’s gonna do…

Arny

CLOWN WORLD

Orion

Any adjustable attachments, such as a multi-position buffer tube, would also automatically make the pistol an SBR. If the shooter places an optic on their firearm that requires an eye relief that is consistent with what’s used on a rifle, such as a scope, then that gun will also be considered a short barreled rifle. If a firearm has the surface area to be fired from the shoulder, such as a firearm equipped with a nonadjustable buffer tube, then that will be considered an SBR, basically making every AR-15 pistol and SBR. “Whether the surface area that allows the weapon… Read more »

Last edited 12 days ago by Orion