By Jim Pope, Captain, Columbus Police Department, Columbus, GA
What is better Concealed Carry or Open Carry? Officer Jim Pope makes his case on why concealed weapons are better.
USA -(AmmoLand.com)- Let me begin by stating this article is written from the perspective of a 30 year veteran police officer, but the topic is whether non law enforcement (NLE) citizens should carry concealed or carry openly.
Officers have some considerations and obligations that NLE do not. We could not just “opt out” of shooting scenarios for example. We have to engage. That is not a cheap shot at NLE.
Honestly, if you have a Colt .380 and observe what appears to be numerous gang members with long guns in a running gun battle with what appears to be other gang members, your only logical option is to become an excellent witness and I advise you to exercise that option.
If not, your epitaph should read “Died from an acute failure of their fight selection process”. If you’re dropping your child off at day care and observe some maniac shooting children, of course any decent person would get involved if they were armed, maybe even if they weren’t and just accept the risk. So, some situations are certainly different than others.
Police have to deal with both law and departmental policies pertaining to carry of a firearm that can and often are more restrictive/burdensome than state law for NLE. Police generally are required to identify themselves by name and badge number if some inquisitive citizen sees them wearing a gun while in plain clothes and begins to ask questions. If the incident turns into an arrest, police have to follow all department policies, laws and court decisions as far as how they effect that arrest.
I wanted to get this out of the way up front and acknowledge differences and also that I have never carried routinely as a NLE. I have policed since age 21 so that is an experience I have never had other than when hunting or maybe going shooting which isn’t exactly the same thing. I often carried a .38 with snake shot in addition to my long gun. When you hunt in the deep south, the snakes are often out even in November.
The basic principles that I am going to discuss will apply to NLE and LE equally. It is only some of the rules and regulations in the background that might differ.
The goal for both NLE and LE in these situations is:
- Survive and help others survive.
- Take out the bad guy when warranted or arrest if feasible.
- Do so in a manner that affects the least amount of people in a negative manner and in that order.
That being said, I acknowledge up front that I have only carried a handgun routinely after I was a sworn officer. At least that’s my story and I’m sticking to it
I believe the most tactically sound method of carry for a handgun for NLE is concealed. I always carry concealed when off duty or obviously if working under cover and I believe that NLE should for many of the same reasons. I carried while walking down the aisle to get married, in the delivery room for the birth of all three of my children, and typically when I walk to the mailbox and when I cut my grass. That should give you some idea of how often I carry; always. It should also give you some idea of the amount of time I have involved in carrying a concealed handgun (over 30 years) and the variety of circumstances I have been involved in by doing so. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to chime in on this if that were not the case. I have devised a class on concealed and off-duty carry and taught it to many officers as a certified police instructor for the State of Georgia. If you live in a state that only allows open carry then shame on that state, but by all means, obey the law. Now, on to the discussion of why.
I think concealed carry is the better answer. Here are my short list of reason why.
- The Element Of Surprise
- The Ability To Opt Out of a Fight
- Avoiding The Bubba Gun Factor
- Avoiding The Nosy Citizen
- Avoiding Officer Or Citizen Error
Conceal Carry Advantages
#1) Conceal Carry Advantage: The Element of Surprise
Let’s say you and your family are eating in a restaurant and someone comes in to rob the business at gun point. There are so many factors to be considered. First, your family is present. Second, if they are not actually shooting anyone, rather than you start a gunfight and potentially have lead flying around in a room full of people, you might just want to be a good witness. Even though you might actually think before you shoot and actually hit what you aim at, there is no guarantee the suspect will do the same. I grant that if you are in a seated position at a table, especially at a booth, most people would not be able to see or even if they could see, would not notice if you were carrying openly or not. But, why take that chance if the goal is to stack the deck in your favor.
Think of it as a check off list and you want as many blocks filled in as possible to keep you alive. What if the suspect(s) take a few minutes to case the area before beginning a robbery and determine who they need to kill first because they view them as a likely threat? Why give them a potential advantage over you?
Let’s say you walk in to a business and step right into a robbery in progress while you are carrying openly. A couple of things will happen: one the bell on the door that many businesses use to know when people come in will ring and bring all attention directly to you. Even if there is no bell, the motion, the door itself opening, the noise, etc. will still bring all attention directly to you. That is, you the guy with a gun in plain view on your hip. Two, you have now either created a shoot-out or a hostage scenario depending on the suspects mindset. It could have all ended quietly with no one actually getting hurt but you changed all of that. I’m not saying you’re the bad guy or that you did it intentionally but this is a reality if you are going to carry in plain view.
This is why most police while in uniform will never walk into a bank.
If God forbid, you end up in an active shooter scenario, ideally, you would want to send at least two rounds toward your primary adversary before they have any idea that you brought a gun to this fight. (I say primary because there may be more than one and you have to decide who is primary.) You want to stack the deck in your favor. This is not about a fair fight. This is about survival and also about eliminating the threat by whatever means necessary in order to save lives including yours. One more check box filled in.
If your weapon is concealed, it may very well give you the full element of surprise. You pick the most opportune moment to engage the threat if the situation will allow that. I do acknowledge that the situation may not allow that. The possibilities of what could happen, how many suspects, what they are armed with, etc. are unlimited.
That being said, the element of surprise would never work to your disadvantage in the concealed carry or open carry debate.
The Ability to Opt Out of a Fight
This is a continuation of the “Element of Surprise” for the most part. You cannot opt out if they know you have a gun unless they’re just a really friendly criminal that is willing to take the time to order you face down and take your weapon from you. That is a position that none of us would ever want to be in and furthermore it really wouldn’t be your decision to opt out. You were forced into opting out.
As mentioned above, there is a time and place where your most logical option is to become a really good witness. If you bring a gun in plain view you may void that option. Whether you wanted to be in the firefight or not, the suspect(s) may decide you just joined the opposing team.
Avoiding The Bubba Gun Factor
Living in the deep south, I can tell you all about Bubba. Bubba was raised around guns and has been hunting since he was probably 11 years old. That isn’t the problem in any way. Bubba’s mindset, lack of common sense and lack of tactical skills is the problem. Bubba is a blabber mouth and thinks that everyone likes to discuss their favorite gun out loud in a crowded place. You could be minding your own business eating with your family in a restaurant and Bubba sees your gun. Bubba will either walk over or even worse talk loudly from several tables away and proceed to tell you that what he carries is better, how good he is with it and why. This conversation could go on for several minutes. You have now gone from only Bubba realizing you’re carrying a gun to the entire restaurant knowing including anyone that might be about to hold the place up, do a mass shooting, etc.
The suspect(s) has now identified his two primary threats and his first two kills.
Avoiding The Nosy Citizen
The nosy citizen is very different from Bubba. These are often New England or California type transplants that think anyone with a gun has ill intent. You can recognize them by the sweater tied around their neck or the peace sign on the back of their Mini Cooper. They often have no idea that many states now not only allow but encourage open carry or concealed carry or they are blinded by their hatred of guns in general. They will come up to you and begin a conversation about how they don’t like the fact that you have a weapon, their children are in danger with your mere presence, and how you should reconsider what you’re doing. Your first inclination is to point them to the nearest Interstate that goes North. (For those Northerners and left coasters that understand the 2nd Amendment, I grant you an official pardon and offer an apology for that comment.) They will go on and on about the evils of guns and violence. As with Bubba, everyone within hearing distance now knows you have a gun and even those not in hearing distance have probably noticed this person standing at your table talking to you which has now drawn attention to you.
As for me, I prefer to blend. The less attention the better.
Avoiding Officer or Citizen Error
This one gets a little complicated to explain. Let’s say you’re in the same restaurant scenario and someone decides they want what’s in the cash register really bad and they have a gun. They start to rob the place, you get involved and actually talk the suspect down, spook them or whatever and he runs out the door. There were no shots fired, nobody hurt. Whether you go after him or not is another discussion for another time.
Unknown to you, another law abiding armed citizen was in the back of the restaurant. They didn’t see anything but heard the commotion and decide to help. By the time he runs to the front of the business, all he sees is you holding a gun. He assumes you’re the robber and you assume he’s the accomplice that you overlooked. This could end badly. Yes, you could have re-holstered but in plain view. It may not lead to a shooting in that case but it will certainly lead to a few very uncomfortable minutes for both of you.
If this new entrant to the process has his finger on the trigger like so many people would, we all know it takes only a few pounds of accidental pressure to fire the weapon and this person may have no formal training and every adrenal gland in their body has now been activated. All of this might have been avoided by carrying in and/or re-holstering to a concealed position if the situation allowed that.
Let’s say you’re in the same scenario with the robber and you decide to try to stop the robbery. It turns into a shooting and you do a righteous shooting of the suspect. What you didn’t know is that the police were already coming in one of the other doors. All they know is they responded to a silent alarm and now they have shots fired and you are the one they see holding a gun.
Once again, this could end badly. Worse case, they end up shooting you. Best case, they order you down on the ground at gunpoint. Being the good guy, you comply although very pissed and embarrassed about it. By the time they have you cuffed, searched, take your weapon and finally figure out who is who, they have wasted 5 minutes of your time and their time.
If the suspect did have an accomplice, they are certainly long gone by now. I grant that you probably would not re-holster immediately after firing because you don’t know if there are others involved so it may make no difference in this case but it would be nice to at least have the option of re-holstering to a concealed position. Then, you could at least tell the officers who you are, what you did, why and which hip your weapon is concealed on. The whole situation is far less threatening to everyone involved. The fewer negative outcomes, the better.
Concealed Carry or Open Carry Disadvantages, Maybe…
Conceal Carry Draw Time
I realize in movies, especially old westerns it all boils down to draw time. No one ever misses unless they’re shooting at John Wayne. So, the winner is the fastest draw because they die instantly when hit unless they have to say something cool just before they die. The truth is that draw time is rarely the real issue in a gun battle. I have been to so many shooting incidents I couldn’t even begin to count them. I do not ever recall one where draw time was clearly an issue as to who won the battle.
That being said, in many instances one participant was no longer talking so we may never know the real truth of how the shooting went down.
In close up robberies of individuals it very well might turn in to a situation where one second could make the difference. If someone already has a gun on you at close range demanding your “stuff” and you decide it is in your best interest to go for your gun for whatever reason, I grant draw time would be very relevant at that point. I recommend a distraction or a push, shove, sweep, etc. with the other hand as well if you draw.
If you are waiting for the bad guy to be distracted, to look away, etc. whether it’s close range or not I grant again, draw time is a relevant factor. In all probability they will see the movement you make and the only obvious advantage you have at that point is a second or two you gained by waiting for them to be distracted or to at least not have their full attention on you. But in the end, it still boils down to more about bullet placement and bullet selection. I will always argue the point that bullet placement and bullet selection hold a lot more water than draw time at least 95% of the time.
If you have the slightest bit of tactical thinking and you carry concealed, you will practice drawing and firing from a concealed carry position and also re-holstering to that same concealed position. Don’t under estimate the importance of practicing re-holstering under stress. I’ve witnessed a few officers fire accidentally with simunitions and on the firing range with live ammo including while trying to reholster. When you add stress to the situation everything changes.
With the issue of draw time, it is reasonable with practice to allow for a draw from a concealed position to be no more than 1.5 seconds slower than from an open position. More practice means faster draw and you could easily reduce that time.
That being said, a bullet travels a long way in 1.5 seconds so I understand that many will consider this a huge disadvantage.
Heat, Sweat, General Level of Conceal Carry Comfort
Common sense would dictate and my experience has clearly shown me that it can be very hot and at times down right uncomfortable carrying concealed. When it’s hot, it doesn’t take long for the sweat to build up between the grip and your bare skin (if you’re carrying on your hip). After a while you feel like the gun is literally stuck to you. Then if you’re doing a lot of walking, the grip is constantly rubbing against your bare, sweaty, hot and now irritated skin. You get the picture.
Some guns are obviously better suited for concealed carry than others. My Kimber 1911 with coca bola grips begins to feel like sand paper very quickly.
I have found my Glock’s to be far more comfortable under these conditions but there is nothing like the feel of a 1911 on your hip other than maybe in your hand. Sorry, I digress.
If you pocket carry such as I occasionally do with a Colt Pocket Light .380, it may not be touching your skin but it does get hot very quickly. If you sweat too much it will begin to print more through the clothing. Ankle rigs work fine but I’m a cargo shorts kind of guy even in the winter.
If you’re a long pant kind of guy, go for it. I’ve carried a back- up on duty this way for over 30 years.
If you’re into what I call “super concealment” such as Thunderwear Holster or something similar, you better get ready to sweat like a pig and depending on the type of pant, the amount of belly fat you carry and the particular gun, a lot of folks may just think you’re really happy to see them based on the bulge in the front of your pants. I’m not a big fan of this method unless you are going to carry a really small and thin semi auto. I also have issue with the ability to draw from this type of rig but we can discuss that another day/another article.
If you carry with a concealment t-shirt such as UnderTech UnderCover, it works but the draw in my opinion is again an issue and I admit I have never carried this way so maybe I’m not the best to criticize or praise it. If you wear an actual shirt over it, the draw then becomes a daunting task. If you wear a sport coat or vest the draw would obviously be easier. It would really be no different than carrying in a shoulder holster other than the tilt of the weapon being different from the typical shoulder rig.
It seems like it would be hot to me if nothing else because you have to wear another shirt, vest or jacket over it. I’m about the hottest natured person on the planet so to the average person that may not be a major issue.
Concealed Carry or Open Carry Final Thoughts
Regardless of your decision, concealed carry or open carry, I believe you will be better off with a gun than without one under any condition. That being said, there are definite issues that come into play when you carry open that you might never have to deal with if you carry concealed. I’m not bringing this up to deter you from doing what you think is right in these scenarios. If you feel the need to get involved, do so. We need more armed citizens to get involved in these type situations. I am actually all for it. I just want everyone to realize that it may not be as simple as you think. Murphy’s law is very real especially when it involves guns. Your intentions can be perfectly honorable and you end up getting in a situation that turns out really bad for everyone. It could all be prevented by simply carrying in a concealed position and/or re-holstering to a concealed position if/when the situation allows it. Then, once police arrive or the other citizen in the back of the business appears, things could be worked out in a lot more orderly fashion without each party fearing the other one was about to kill them.
Based on the original post & the other comments, it appears that the OP & a majority of the others should not be carrying firearms at all, until they become mature adults.
TomCat – Yep. All it takes to set them off is to point out that there is no Second Amendment right to concealed carry. For example: “Concealed carry is of no use to me, I don’t carry a purse. Besides, Open Carry is the right guaranteed by the Constitution, concealed carry can be banned. “[A] right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and… Read more »
Having been retired for a decade I am sure some things have changed in law enforcement. Doing many years behind a badge gives you a perspective the regular folks never know or learn. Carrying openly gives up the advantage of the bad guy not knowing who, if any are armed and which ones he or she has to deal with first. I have spoken to a few and have been told they have always done the following before trying rob or do bad things in a crowded place. When they enter they always look to the walls of the business… Read more »
Both the author and Wraith make excellent arguments as far as I can see, and both recommend carrying however you prefer, but strongly recommend carrying SOMEHOW, with which I also agree. I don’t care where Wraith got his arguments, and frankly, I suspect the original author is probably just happy to see them getting used somewhere. I am more interested in whether they make any sense, and I think they do, as do Justin’s also. I live in south central TX, where it is usually hot and humid, which makes concealed carry less comfortable, but I have figured out ways… Read more »
I understand completely about the Hawaiian shirts & oversized tee shirts. Most of what I’m packing is above the waist & has nothing to do with a firearm. IWB is a challenge, to say the least, although I’m checking into a Taurus PT111 G2 in a N82 IWB holster. Looks promising. Right now, I carry a S&W 66 in a Fobus paddle holster, so the large shirts are a must. Carry what you have, right?
My preference is to carry concealed, which I have done for almost twenty years. I fully support the perspective of this writer for a number of reasons. When I’m out in public and see an open carry individual, I move away from them because I see them as someone who has brought attention to themselves, and under certain circumstances can make a target of themselves. A good example of that is when a person goes into a convenience store that becomes the victim of a robbery. If you are in the store while the robbery is taking place, you do… Read more »
Excellent article.
OMG, are we really having this discussion again? What’s next, a report from yet another LEO who’s been on the job for 100 years advocating open carry? There are anecdotal stories on both sides and I dove into this head first last time but learned you just can’t win. Why don’t we all just agree to let people carry in what ever manner they choose? All this controversy does is promote discord within the gun community when we should be focusing all of our energies into overturning ALL gun laws.
The vast majority of people who make their money selling people their rights, and those that enforce the will of those people, have a complete disdain for those who exercise their rights without paying first. So they have perpetrated lies that that would make Gobbel proud. And then their are the non-thinking gun owners you parrot those lies without second thought.
@yzman C, Who do you have in mind when you say, “The vast majority of people who make their money selling people their rights…”? Had you said, ” …governments who make money selling the people their rights.” then I would have understood.
Jim that was an excellent article well thought out and well written. I’m with you on concealed carry, as discussed in your article the reasons for this method far outweigh the reasons for open carry and no one including the idiots replying above about open carry will never change my mind. It is one thing to express ones opinion but to show ignorance and display it openly with such blatent disrespect only proves their ineptitude with a firearm.
Concealed carry is a direct result of gun laws. The framers did not say you have a right to bear arms as long as we can’t see it.
It would be nice if one company made an IWB that had leather or synthetic that extended from the top of the holster to the top of the grip. Some come close, but none fill the area between your skin and the grip.
Have you looked at Alien Gear holsters?
I have one, leaves about 3/4 of the grip to rub against your skin.
High noon holsters in Florida offers several models that do precisely that. A bit pricey but they are top quality and I highly recommend them. http://www.highnoonholsters.com
After looking for a holster for a Taurus PT 111 Millenium G2, I came across N82 Tactical holsters that seem to meet your criteria, espescially the professional line. Check them out. I’ll probably be getting one.
Not a fan of open carry at all especially with long guns. First of all if something would go down guess who’s the first tango of the knucklehead and second IMO it gives the rest of us firearms owners a bad name, as if it’s not bad enough. All of the UNEDUCATED rabid gun control clowns see this and generalize us as a bunch of “gun nuts” strutting around showing off our “pieces” trying to intimidate or impress others with our “macho” attitudes. I’m all in for CONCEAL carry but trying to make a point against the anti-gunners out there… Read more »
Hey Charles Nichols, you appear to be either in need of some medication to relax or need an adjustment to your meds, one or the other. I see you are in CA from your post – good luck. That state will make you “full goose bozo” over handguns. I know b/c I lived there for 12 years in San Diego and happily moved my butt to the ‘Live Free or Die’ (figure out where that is for something to unwind over) state 3 yrs ago where I can happily choose to have a CCW and/or open carry. One key thing… Read more »
The intent of the Second Amendment is often cited as protecting _________________ by people who don’t support the right to keep and bear arms.. They shout about the NRA supporting Bubba possessing nuclear weapons or tanks hopeful that they can demonize Aunt Milly’s 38 in her purse. The SCOUS has not ruled that open carry is protected but that concealed carry isn’t. What was said in the dicta [notes] with cases ] was that many states that allowed open carry did ban concealed carry. Common dating back hundreds of years restricted carrying weapons to terrorize by sight. Open carry results… Read more »
I carry concealed always, have several different pistols and holsters for whatever the occasion and train with them all. I don’t want anyone knowing that I am armed.
The guy who wrote this article is a potato. There’s just no other way of putting it. Nancy Pelosi couldn’t have said it any better.
Nancy Pelosi? Dude; put down your crack pipe before posting……..
“Concealed carry is for cowards, criminals, and would-be assassins.” Well, I carried concealed for over 30 years as a plainclothes LEO. Which of those categories do I fall into? It’s not a myth that open carriers are targeted by criminals. The commenter states that “criminals . . . are focused on the object of their attack . . . ” And what if the object of their attack is the gun? Every once in a while you read of open carriers being robbed of their guns, and I know of at least two cases where uniformed police have been murdered… Read more »
As a LEO, you are a criminal and a coward.
Can you even count the number of times you violated laws during the course of your “duty” and then hid behind the tired “officer safety” mantra?
Interesting theory. So then, we shouldn’t have any LEOs? Please explain. Give examples.
Theory? Police throughout the country are in violation of the laws that are sworn to uphold. There have been numerous cases of criminal activity, from the very minor to the very egregious. Usually no officer is ever punished.
So, do we need law enforcement, not if they are going to be the same crop of corrupt criminals we currently have.
Examples:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/04/16/how-do-we-fix-the-police-testilying-problem?utm_term=.cb84862c5b48
https://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/11/24/city-settles-49-million-in-fatal-police-beating-of-homeless-man.html
https://youtu.be/JyWOhPSSMHE
And hundreds of thousands more.
I didn’t mean, show examples of bad police. Human beings are weak and fallible, so it’s easy to find examples of dishonest police, just as it’s easy to find examples of corrupt clergymen, doctors, and plumbers. I meant, Show me an example of a modern, industrial, pluralistic society that functions without LEOs. Hint: You can’t, because none exist. Whenever two people interact, there have to be rules. As societies get more complicated, the rules become laws, which everybody should understand. But the weak, fallible, dishonest people we discussed previously, who infest every society, eventually get to be too big, too… Read more »
I’ll give you a nod that you actually touched on the importance of having quick, easy access to a weapon in a defensive situation rather than just saying like so many do that, “Concealed carry gives you the benefit of surprise”. But, essentially, the whole pretext is a fallacy. Some people open carry as a political statement and to publicly show that “I have a right to keep and bear arms, and I accept that I am solely responsible for the safety of myself and my family.” Some open carry to normalize it among the populace and to show that… Read more »
‘Few people will attack an open carrier’. Utter, complete and total BS. Nice try; no cigar.
I notice your online handle is Clark Kent. As I remember from my comic book days, the original Clark Kent was strictly a “concealed carrier” at least of his super powers, no?
The Wraith; while I appreciate your post plagiarism is obnoxious at best and basic theft at worst. I remember the article well that you clearly copy / pasted as your own and really liked it. Had you quoted your source as even “Ammoland” and then added your handful of sentences interspersed then no worries. As it is you post a great article in response to an article that frankly many of us probably feel very strongly about and yet all I can think is what an unoriginal clown. While I’m certainly no literary master or the “print police”, don’t steal… Read more »
@Spencer Brannon, I thought that Wraith was just sharing. It is not like this is an academic setting or a copy right infringement case. This is just a pro Second Amendment site. I think that there is more to agree with in the republished article that we all agree on the weight of the balance disagreement. You liked the article, Wraith liked the article, and I liked the article. What is the problem.
Spencer, that original article appeared in The Daily Caller. If Ammo land republished it, they did it without permission. Even the NRA asked for permission to republish.
So which is it…do you advocate concealed carry or open carry? You make an almost apologetic reference to carrying concealed because you want to get your gas & candy bars & get back to your movie…but you do a whole dicourse on open carry as the seemingly prefered way to go! It doesn’t matter to me either way because I’ll do both, depending on MY comfort factor or if I want to be incognito. Even carrying OTW, I’ll usually wear a loose shirt to conceal. I don’t like to advertise. That’s why I don’t wear “gun” shirts as well. It’s… Read more »
@yzman Clark – I had no intention of advocating one over the other. I simply believe there are merits to both, as well as disadvantages to both. If I’m destined to get myself into a gun fight I would much prefer to have easier, more efficient access to my weapon through open carry – versus through (potentially) multiple layers of clothing. But, if I’m not destined to be in a gun fight, I’d prefer to not make a spectacle of myself. I believe open carry, for multiple reasons, has ‘tactical benefits’ that include but are not limited to threat deterrence,… Read more »
You may have said something about this in your second book on this topic (I didn’t read it all) but just to clarify my response before, I was confused by your remarks.
You say, the “bubbas” & “nosey” people are why you primarily carry concealed…but turn around & say, “Carrying a concealed firearm suggests to a criminal that you are unarmed. Every study says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. I do not understand the advantage of appearing to be unarmed.” That’s why I asked which it was.
Search Results Man practicing open carry law robbed of gun – KOIN.com koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/ KOIN Oct 7, 2014 – Gresham man robbed of gun he was openly carrying … (KOIN 6) — A man practicing his open carry right was robbed of the gun he was openly … Missing: wichita ks Open Carrier Robbed Of His Gun In Virginia – Bearing Arms bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/02/03/open-carrier-robbed-gun-virginia/ Feb 3, 2016 – An open carrier with poor situational awareness was robbed of his gun by two men … Someone got robbed of their gun while open carrying. Missing: wichita ks Man wearing handgun open carry robbed… Read more »
“Concealed carry is for cowards, criminals and would be assassins.”
Charles Nichols – I am neither coward, nor criminal, nor assassin. As a man I have never carried a purse, and I conceal carry. If you defend your open carry rights with the same antagonistic, yet simultaneously passive-agressive, flavor of assholery that you just used to assault conceal carriers then you are part of the problem that gives respectable gun owners a bad name.
Brian – Gun owners who carry weapons concealed are not respectable. They are cowards and brag about their cowardice by extolling concealed carry as something which gives them a tactical/secret advantage.
My opinion is that you are simply a paid antigun troll. And as such you have no power here… We all know your type and your agenda. Go stir your crap somewhere else. You don’t carry concealed because you don’t carry at all.
Bingo. His mistake was dropping the veil and communicating a hostility towards a particular type of weapons carry. That is not patently indicative of anyone who is pro 2A. Additionally, his first post was armed with prefabricated context and supporting quotes, cited cases, and links. All trademarks of precanned arguments. His first post was argumentive before there was any other posts, before there was debate or cause for argument, because that is what his precanned taking points were geared towards. When required to speak in context of the threaded discussion you’ll note his quotations, citations, and links immediately disappear. He… Read more »
TheWraith – I have been in Federal court these past five years seeking to overturn California’s bans on openly carrying loaded and unloaded firearms. What have you done other than to skulk around town with your concealed handgun in the hope of using it against some unsuspecting person? Your “moral” outrage is worth that of any coward, nothing. As for citations, how many would you like? Every Federal court of appeals has upheld restrictions and prohibitions on concealed carry citing the Heller decision: “”For example, the Court said, “the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that… Read more »
@the Wraith, Good analysis.
“His mistake was dropping the veil and communicating a hostility towards a particular type of weapons carry.”
Yes, not like those who condemn the act of legal open carry using lies and fear to discourage or ridicule those who do open carry. Not like that at all.
Ranchdude – I have been in Federal court these past five years seeking to overturn California’s bans on openly carrying loaded and unloaded firearms. What have you done other than to skulk around town with your concealed handgun in the hope of using it against some unsuspecting person?
Your “moral” outrage is worth that of any coward, nothing.
Give it up, Bozo; you are not convincing anyone with your idiotic blather.
@CN, What do you mean when you say, “I have been in Federal court these past five years seeking to overturn California’s bans on openly carrying loaded and unloaded firearms.”? Are you the lawyer pleading the case or are you funding the case? What is the case styled as? Why would you champion the right to carry openly but reject the right to carry concealed?
He actually has a law suit in California to over turn our ban on open carry. Despite is very apparent abrasiveness, he is actually walking the walk and taking action on his principles. Btw, he is also representing himself in his suit. Nichols vs Brown While I agree with him in theory, but disagree with his tactics, if we loOK at all of the recent CC cases they all say that OC is protected by the 2nd, it’s not just him. So if we only rely on the state to “give” us permission to CC and not have Co constitutional… Read more »
Charles, I am not a coward nor do I brag that it gives me a tactical or secret advantage. as the author of this article points out, concealing is not always about tactical surprise. Cowardice applies to those who conceal with the intent to assault and surprise; not those with the intent to defend.
According to your logic, if a thug draws on me or my kid, and I defend from my open carry holster, I am not a coward. If I do the same from a concealed holster, I am a coward. Am I correct?
If so, why?
I am under your definition a coward— you are by any normal persons defintion an IDIOT, twice over!!!!!
Bill Roderick – Spoken by a coward hiding behind the Internet.
Tell us something. When you tell people that the white stuff on your lips, mouth and face is from a vanilla shake, do you really think anyone believes you?
Concealed carry is for cowards, criminals and would be assassins. Concealed carry is of no use to me, I don’t carry a purse. Besides, Open Carry is the right guaranteed by the Constitution, concealed carry can be banned. “[A] right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”” District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008) at 2809 “But the… Read more »
I’ve have read the 2nd Amendment a good many times, I do not see the terms open or concealed in that text anywhere. It simply states “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. “Bearing” in this context, simply means carrying, it doesn’t limit it to open or concealed. In modern English it would simply mean “to own and carry” in my humble opinion, “such is the plain reading of the Constitution”.. The majority opinion stated by Justice Brown for the SCOTUS in Robertson v. Baldwin, was not a ruling on the 2nd Amendment,… Read more »
Ranchdude – The 1st Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion. Where in the 1st Amendment does it say that you cannot sacrifice another human being to whatever gods you may believe in? It doesn’t say that human sacrifice can be prohibited because that isn’t the way our laws work. Not now, not in 1868 when the 14th Amendment was adopted, not in 1791 when the Bill of Rights was adopted and not in the history of the Americas under English Common or statutory law. The Framers of the Second Amendment did not have to say that concealed carry is… Read more »
But if police and criminals can carry concealed then it is only just that civilians can carry concealed in order to defend themselves. And since youll never keep criminals from doing so it will always be justified for law abiding citizens to defend themselves in a like manner. Also you cant kill someone with a concealed weapon if it is unconcealed in the process of using it. So are police that carry concealed assassins? The secret service? By your interpretation they are. What was law before our Constitution especially in Britain isn’t a factor to what is very clearly defined… Read more »
Cops are civilians. Civilians are government employees not in the military. If you are a productive human being you are a citizen.
@Chuck Nichols, The First Amendment freedom of religion is about belief not action. The Second Amendment is about an action. Therefore your analogy is false. There is a case that I remember from law school, wherein a federal prisoners made up a religion, the practice of which required him to eat steak every night. He claimed that the BOP was denying him his civil right to his religion by not feeding him steak every night. The court ruled that he could believe anything that he wanted. The Second Amendment is about a different set of action verbs, thus the analogy… Read more »
@wildbill: Simply put, yup :)!
Open Carry makes you an immediate target even before anything goes down.If you want to get shot in the back while claiming to be a hero, go for it. I prefer to get the drop on a bad guy that doesn’t know I’m armed.
Citation of anytime this has happened in the history of legal open carry in the United States (that means you can go back to 1776).
I don’t know about being shot in the back but there is more than one case of people having their gun stolen at gunpoint while open carrying.
Can you cite any? [fair warning, this is a trap]
Danny Griffin, this is two years old but will this do, or did I fall into the trap? Just keeping it real brother!
https://www.kptv.com/story/26729956/man-openly-carrying-new-gun-in-gresham-robbed-by-armed-man
Yes, Wayne, I’m so disappointed. I even warned you beforehand that this was a trap and you walked right into it anyway. You posted a story about a person who was hanging out at 2:00 AM on a street corner showing off an unloaded .22 LR pistol.
Is that the best you’ve got? How does that compare to someone who is loaded, situationally aware, and carrying to/from Kroger or Ruth’s Chris/Mortons?
Here in Wichita, KS a man who was open carrying was robbed of his gun and cellphone. Search Results Man practicing open carry law robbed of gun – KOIN.com koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practicing-open-carry-law-robbed-of-gun/ KOIN Oct 7, 2014 – Gresham man robbed of gun he was openly carrying … (KOIN 6) — A man practicing his open carry right was robbed of the gun he was openly … Missing: wichita ks Open Carrier Robbed Of His Gun In Virginia – Bearing Arms bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/02/03/open-carrier-robbed-gun-virginia/ Feb 3, 2016 – An open carrier with poor situational awareness was robbed of his gun by two men … Someone… Read more »
Oh well , sorry I’m such a disappointment. Not to worry though…my feelings are still intact.
I just did a Google search & this was the first thing that popped up. Never took it as gospel or even a good example. Just showing your sanctimonious ass that there ARE stories out there & some may actually be true. The point is, a man with a open carry gun, had his gun stolen at gunpoint. That’s what you asked for…so yeah, that’s all I’ve got…for you.
@Chuck N, your quotes are of no value. RvB is just dicta from a non Second Amendment case, and your Heller quote is from the losing side. Hey, what kind of propaganda are you pushing, anyway?
Your inability to state your opinion without having to insult others makes your words worthless and your thoughts valueless. I stopped reading after the first sentence.
That makes you a coward. Coward hide from that they fear.
Do you get much support for your cause by being such a self-important narcissistic jerk ? When the time comes, will you reject the efforts of a concealed carrier ? In many parts of California, open carrying sets the carrier up for a sneak up attack to take the firearm.
Keep fighting for open carry in Calif but stop being a jerk to those who choose to concealed carry.