Charges File Against Reloader Who Sold Stephen Paddock Ammunition

.223 M855 Green Tip Ammuntion
.223 M855 Green Tip Ammuntion
John Crump
John Crump

U.S.A.-(Ammoland.com)- Authorities have charged Douglas Haig, 55, of Mesa Arizona with selling “armor-piercing ammunition” to Las Vegas killer Stephen Paddock according to court documents acquired by the Associated Press. Haig works full time as an aerospace engineer and part-time as a manufacturer of reloaded ammunition.

Stephen Paddock opened fired on a crowd attending a country music festival from a room window of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino. The shooting killed 58 people before taking his own life. The police found a hotel room full of guns and spent cartridges.

According to the court documents police also found unfired armor-piercing rounds within the hotel room. Law enforcement was able to lift a fingerprint off one of the armor-piercing cartridges. Douglas Haig matched that print and was named a person of interest in the case after law enforcement found his name, and address on a box that was in Paddock's possession.

According to the court papers, Haig made and sold ammunition as a hobby. The documents also state that Haig did not have the proper licensing from the ATF to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition. The records do not indicate if Paddock used any of the ammo in the actual attack.

Haig and his lawyer, Marc Victor, held a press conference on Friday claiming that Haig was innocent. According to Haig, he met a well-dressed Paddock at a gun show in Phoenix, Arizona. He stated Paddock wanted to more tracer rounds than he had on hand at the show, so Paddock called him a few days later to set up a sell of 720 tracer rounds at Haig's house. Haig built the tracer rounds out of surplus military components.

Haig stated that Paddock informed him he wanted to do a light show with or for his friends in the desert. Haig could not recall the exact wording. He stated Paddock asked for something to carry the ammo, so he provided him with a box which had his name and address on it. The federal investigators used the name and address to track down Haig. Haig further states that he did not have any other dealings with Paddock.

According to Haig the size of the transaction is not out of the ordinary. He went on to say, “He pulled up very well dressed, very well groomed, very polite, respectful. He paid me, put it in his car, went on his way — at no time did he seem suspicious.”

“I had no contribution to what Paddock did,” Haig stated at the press conference. He says he is only a merchant and the government should not have released his name. Investigators were in touch with Haig shortly after the shooting. Haig claims to have received multiple death threats since his name was released.

Haig's name was mistakenly released when a judge in Nevada made the police warrant public without redacting Haig's name. Haig and his attorney stated that they do not expect to take any legal action for his name being improperly made public.

Haig was not aware of what happened in Las Vegas until agents from the FBI and the BATF told him 11 hours after the events unfolded. According to his lawyer, he cooperated with investigators “without hesitation.” Haig said he was “horrified that this man would do something like that.”

Haig further claims that Paddock did not use his ammunition in the attack because he only sold him tracer rounds. Haig's lawyer said in the press conference that his client does not talk to the press to protect his reputation. He also stated that to the best of their knowledge none of the ammunition that Haig has sold in the past has ever been used in a crime.

Haig has since shut down has ammunition business. He plans to plead innocent to the charges.

About John Crump

John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. He is the former CEO of Veritas Firearms, LLC and is the co-host of The Patriot News Podcast which can be found at www.blogtalkradio.com/patriotnews. John has written extensively on the patriot movement including 3%'ers, Oath Keepers, and Militias. In addition to the Patriot movement, John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and is currently working on a book on the history of the patriot movement and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss or at www.crumpy.com.

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Badger Jack
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Badger Jack

RULE NUMBER 1:
ALWAYS REMOVE THE SHIPPING LABEL FROM ANY AND ALL BOXES YOU HAVE ON HAND, WHETHER OR NOT YOU PLAN TO RE-USE THEM.
YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN SOMEONE MIGHT USE THAT LABEL AGAINST YOU, LIKE BREAKING INTO YOUR HOUSE BECAUSE THE BOX CAME FROM A FIREARMS RELATED SOURCE.
RULE NUMBER 2:
DO NOT IGNORE RULE NUMBER 1.

Billbert
Guest
Billbert

All the anti- American anti-second amendment proponents will say and do anything to make guns and ammunition evil and try and make us who exercise our constitutional rights look evil. Some one sold some reloaded ammo legally to an unknown person. Big deal. And legal ammo and tracers. All legal. The real question is who and what is the evil party or parties who committed mass murder in Las Vegas. And for what reason?Still unknown and covered up by whom?

Kivaari
Guest
Kivaari

He was reloading from his components .308 AP ammunition. He was not reloading customers brass, but manufacturing ammunition without a license. He failed to collect and pay the federal excise tax of roughly 10%. His crime is tax avoidance.

Chris N
Guest
Chris N

If it is a hobby and not a significant source of income he does not need to have a licence nor does he need to declaire taxes on it…and even if he should need to declaire it he would not need to until he submitted his tax return and only he or the IRS would have that info. I know this because my buddy and I used to work on people’s (friends of friends) cars from our home garage as a side gig. The neighbors complained and called the police on us. They tried to bust us for running an… Read more »

Mark Are
Guest
Mark Are

I guess I should bother responding to John Crump postings because apparently he doesn’t like the truth I try to get out.
I’ve noticed that on ammo land quite frequently…can’t ruffle the state worshippers feathers.

Bpjsurf
Admin

Mark. I have no idea what you are referring to “State worshippers”. Advance the dialog and comment to us all or you can email me as I pay the bills around here and I am always interested in others opinions. ([email protected])

A.X. Perez
Guest
A.X. Perez

“Haig’s name was mistakenly released when a judge in Nevada made the police warrant public without redacting Haig’s name.”

Anyone who believes the judge made a mistake when he forgot to redact Mr.Haig’s name needs to report to a rehab center for treatment of their drug problem.

tomcat
Guest
tomcat

Wait a minute, back the truck up, the article says they lifted Haig’s finger print off an armor piercing round. If he did not sell armor piercing rounds to the killer how did his finger print get on the round. He may be lying and in deep doo doo.

jeff
Guest
jeff

doesnt say that all, reread the article?

Tionico
Guest
Tionico

Jef, from the article: police also found unfired armor-piercing rounds within the hotel room. Law enforcement was able to lift a fingerprint off one of the armor-piercing cartridges. sure looks like you are mistaken. BUT…. it could be tne news is a wee mite on the innaccurate side of things… but then, THAT”s never happened before, has it? As far as I know, possession of AP rounds is not illegal. But then, with 30,000 pages of fed gun laws, they could have snuck that one in somewhere and I didn’t know about it. Looks to me like the coppers are… Read more »

roscoethehat
Guest
roscoethehat

You said a mouthful. What do we know about the “real” crime amounts to just over ZERO. Whatever the deal with this guy in the story the public has Zero info on many points about the story…

Mike11C
Guest
Mike11C

What I noticed is, they called it “armor piercing” but failed to describe the round. I don’t trust very many people to know the difference between tracer and armor piercing ammo based on the color coded tip. I’ve known Infantry Officers who didn’t know the difference between the old M196 tracer (red tip) and the newer M856 tracer (orange tip). Hell, some of them couldn’t tell the difference between a G3 and a FN FAL. I wouldn’t rule out that the LEOs couldn’t make that mistake also. Now, people who know realize that a black tip identifies a round as… Read more »

Chris N
Guest
Chris N

I agree 100%. We keep getting told by the media that he was using an AR-15 with a bypod and a bump stock. If he was using 5.56 rounds what AP rounds would they be talking about? If he was using the bypod then the bump stock would not work as designed and if he was using the bump stock then he could not have been utilizing the bypod even if it were on his gun. Furthermore, if he was using the AR-15 and Haig sold him 7.62 AP reloads then that ammo would not have even been used to… Read more »

gcm
Guest
gcm

@tomcat, from the report I saw I think last Friday, Haig got charged for possessing armor piercing ammo which
he did not have a federal license for, and the 2rnds were found at his residence, not at the crime scene.
It don’t matter if he made them or not, just having possession of them is illegal from what I gathered from the news.
his prints done him in. All my ammo boxes cartons, pill bottles, or anything else with your name on it should
totally be destroyed, or it can come back to bite you in the rear end.

Cullen Swanson
Guest
Cullen Swanson

@Tomcat – I think you may be on to something. This article is WAY sketchy, though. I wouldn’t necessarily chock it up as unbridled truth. Sounds like there is a lot of misinformation.

Brick
Guest
Brick

Only 30 AP & APT are illegal to own. Black tips. Green tip 5.56 is not a. AP round and is not classified as such. With all the essays written above one thing is overlooked. This man should not face time for what he did. The DOJ and FBI are just seeking to make an example and this will lead to further legislation to make laws against hand loaders. Remeber who’s DOJ and FBI it is that’s in control of this situation. Total anti 2nd and anti 1st amendment Obama and Killery politicians.

Dale
Guest
Dale

Some regular hunting ammunition is capable of armor piercing. Do they mean bullet resistant vests or thru a car body? would like to see if forensics can make it up to his reloading gear.

SiliconGraybeard
Guest
SiliconGraybeard

I’ve been waiting since Saturday for someone to clear up this story – and the comments here clear it up much more than the article. This article, like all the news I saw, said he was charged with making armor-piercing ammunition, then talked about tracers, which (as someone else said) is entirely different. I’m not a lawyer, but I know of no prohibitions from BATFE on tracers. One article said it was .308 ammunition and I’ve not seen anything except talk about him using AR-15s. I think the bottom line here is that what he was really busted for was… Read more »

Chris N
Guest
Chris N

Agreed. AP rounds are not illegal. Now API rounds are illegal in some states like CA. Last year I legally bought 200 rounds of black tip 30-06 AP surplus ammo in California after I looked it up and found out what the CA DOJ says about it on calguns. Black tip AP=ok silver tip API=illegal (in CA).

Mark Are
Guest
Mark Are

DAMN that pesky 2nd amendment! You slaves had best except “our” NEW Second Amendment of the amended US Bill of Rights… (sorry, we no longer follow “proper procedure” for amending these pain in the ass listed rights) A well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed EXCEPT: You are buying the firearms for yourself. EXCEPT: you want to open a gun store within 500 feet of a residential area. EXCEPT: you are carrying within 1000 feet of a school. EXCEPT: you are… Read more »

Paul
Guest
Paul

I think you are dangerous! Probably more so than the next guy because of your intolerance.

Cullen Swanson
Guest
Cullen Swanson

“The documents also state that Haig did not have the proper licensing from the ATF to manufacture ARMOR-PIERCING ammunition.” This could not have been more poorly communicated or written. You don’t need a license to manufacture armor-piercing ammunition any more than you need a license to manufacture ANY other kind or type of ammunition. As stated above, you do need a license to manufacture new and/or reloaded ammunition (any caliber or type) FOR THE PURPOSE OF RESALE as a means to support your family. In other words, you are doing it for the sole purpose of making a living. Poorly… Read more »

BILL BRONAUGH
Guest
BILL BRONAUGH

No, what’s gonna happen, Mark my damn words, is that before long we will have to have a special liscense to reload our own ammo, you watch. And of course that special permission slip will come with a price to be paid to the gubment.
These people are stupid, and since k. And incompetent.

Chris N
Guest
Chris N

They were either M855 steel penetrator rounds which are not true armor piercing rounds anyway, or they were M856 tracer rounds which do not have the same steel first core as the M855, or they were a mixed box of the two types of rounds but cannot be both steel penetrator and tracer in the same round.

Ronald Moore
Guest
Ronald Moore

A lot of pontification going on! We all know that the government is the one entity that can do no wrong ( in their mind)! They will always find a law to cover their assets or hide it behind health and safety. Although anyone should know anytime you engage in business for profit, no matter what that business is, you need a license. That’s common sense and reason. I assure that they knew exactly what they were doing when they released his name. It’s part of their status quo, MO, whichever you prefer. Should be no surprise to anyone. Good… Read more »

Ansel Hazen
Guest
Ansel Hazen

Seems to me the POPO needs a scapegoat cause they have nothing else.

Nate
Guest
Nate

That’s all this is about. A face to put before the public to show good results of the investigation. Pity any cab driver who gave the dead perp a ride. They’ll be the next “person of interest”

Wild Bill
Guest
Wild Bill

@AH and Nate, I agree. Someone had to get the blame. Douglas Haig just got picked.

Desert Rat
Guest
Desert Rat

The fact is that if the govt. wants you ruined it can find a law, out of the many thousands on the books, that you broke or can be made to appear to have broken. It really doesn’t matter if you broke the law or not as the point is to bankrupt you with the legal bills incurred in defending yourself. If they can obtain a conviction and land you in jail that is just icing on the cake. Prosecution of cases like this have as their main purpose the intimidation of people who take their second amendment rights seriously.… Read more »

Marc Disabled Vet
Guest
Marc Disabled Vet

@D.R
How very true ! They have a Never empty wallet,
and your paying to hang yourself . Most working stiffs
can’t afford to hire a lawyer for more than 1 court date.
Let alone a big trial. So most take a plea deal that in ,
the long run cost’s them far less. ( or so they thought )
the Government uses their own tax money to get more
money to go after someone else to get more money etc.etc.etc.

Mark Are
Guest
Mark Are

There is a reason that “they” don’t follow the Constitution anymore. The reason is that the lynch pin was removed in 1913. Once the control of the monetary system was taken from the hands of the people and those in control could create all they wanted out of thin air with the collusion of the Federal Reserve, none of what we think matters anymore. None of what we do matters anymore. They have effectively enslaved the world to their fiat money systems based on nothing that they create out of thin air and are able to use to do whatever… Read more »

Wild Bill
Guest
Wild Bill

@MA, You sure type a lot without explaining anything. Richard Shithouse Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard in 1971. So the currency was not fiat money in 1913. The currency became fiat money in 1971, and still is today. Nixon’s move was a response to DeGaul’s sending every American dollar in france to the U.S. government and demanded redemption in gold. The U.S. had to send the gold or faith in the U.S. dollars would have plummeted to the level of the franc. But in honoring the dollar, lots of gold went to france and braced up the… Read more »

just jim
Guest
just jim

So were these TRACER rounds or ARMOR PIERCING rounds? The terms are not interchangeable.

Roy D.
Guest
Roy D.

It is called a “red herring.”

Clark Kent
Guest
Clark Kent

‘Red herring’ for what, pray tell? Your imagination?

Tionico
Guest
Tionico

red herring for two purposes: first, to raise the false pretense that “”law enforcement” have managed to unearth another “culprit” on whom to lay some of the guilt for the LV shooting, and second, to flex their anti-gun muscles in front of the public, thus adding to the charade that “we are keeping you safer because we got ________________ on a petty gun related charge”.

Red herrings are always for a distraction from the truth, something these grubbermint dweebs do NOT want us looking at.

David Nagel
Guest
David Nagel

Define armor piercing.

“The round is capable of going through at least 1/4inch of steel.”

MBZ
Guest
MBZ

223 Remington with do that, so will 5.56 M193, neither designed or built to be armor piercing. Velocity defeats armor. adding Tungsten, Nickle or other metal or alloys only enhances performance. Speed kills.

Mike the Limey
Guest
Mike the Limey

That’ll be ANY standard 5.56×45, copper jacketed, cup & core bullet then. I’ve shot holes in 3/8″ steel plate at 200yds using factory ammunition.

Marc Disabled Vet
Guest
Marc Disabled Vet

Stop Drop , Pick up Your Brass !
If you leave it at the Range you can go to Jail .
Say What ? Yep , Leave Your Brass ,You don’t reload .
The next to Collects it all up,(he reloads)
Now your prints are on his bullets.
(Damb ! Killed a Man from 35,000 ft.up)
He Went Nuts and Your Connected .
Now You Know Why the DI. Said Pick up your Brass .

Paul Powell
Guest
Paul Powell

The process of cleaning and polishing the brass will remove the fingerprints, I used to clean and polish and reload my own brass in years past.

Bpjsurf
Admin

So do you need a federal license to load m855 ammunition? here is something I found on the atf site.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/person-who-reloads-ammunition-required-be-licensed-manufacturer
Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]

Gregg Greenwood
Guest
Gregg Greenwood

This has always been an iffy area. If I’m truly “running a business” and cranking out thousands of rounds which I advertise and promote, etc… I will concede that is subject to that rule. (Has nothing to do with M855 5.56mm ammo which is legal in all forms.) But a lot of us own a lot of reloading equipment. A friend or a friend of a friend offers to buy the components for 700 rounds of ammo and will pay you $xx to reload it for him, that’s just your basic “mow my yard” type of transaction. My neighbor scrapes… Read more »

Tionico
Guest
Tionico

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. That’s a hole big enough to drive a huge truck right through it. If I sell my good buddy a box of ammo I reloaded for my cost to produce it, and he hands me cash, no livelihood, no profit. What if he decides he needs to compensate me for my time, wear and tear on my equipment, etc, in addition? Perhaps for profit but at one box a year thatn’s not for livelihood. The “transition” between “livelihood and profit”… Read more »