‘Bump Stock’ Lawsuit Makes Unique Points to Seek Injunction against Ban

How many times does this piece of firearms history have to be declared “legal”? (Photo: David Codrea)

U.S.A. – -(Ammoland.com)- A lawsuit was filed Thursday in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia seeking injunctive relief from the Trump administration’s redefinition the legal term “machinegun” and its resulting ban on “’bump fire’ stocks, slidefire devices, and devices with certain similar characteristics.” The action was filed by attorneys Stephen Stamboulieh and Alan Beck on behalf of plaintiffs Owen Monroe, Scott Heuman and this correspondent.

The complaint asks the court, among other things, to:

 “Issue an injunction requiring Defendants to rescind the Final Rule [and] Issue an injunction prohibiting Defendants and anyone acting in concert with them from taking any action inconsistent with the rescission of the Final Rule…”

Filing in the District was “a good choice since most of the attack is over the Administrative Procedure Act, and in the DDC they know that and take it seriously,” attorney and author David T. Hardy notes on his Of Arms and the Law Blog. Hardy summarizes other points raised in the complaint:

Interesting points on a quick read: para 16, ATF has ruled at least ten times that a bumpstock is not an MG. Para 19-20, the rule making says bumpstocks were used in the Las Vegas killings, yet FBI has refused a FOIA request for just that data. Para 22, FBI refused to let ATF examine the guns that were used to see what their firing mechanisms were like. Para 55 & 84 ff. challenges the status of the Acting Attorney General who signed the rule.

As far-fetched as some may say the question of bump stock use is (as opposed to attachment on guns that may or may not have been modified), it is the government that has fueled such speculation. ATF stated in an official report that “on scene personnel were not allowed to physically examine the interior of the weapons for machinegun fire-control components or known machinegun conversion devices such as Drop-In Auto Sears, Lightning Link, etc.” Since then there has been no Report of Technical Examination, and rather than address that, the Final Rule attempts to deflect by essentially saying it doesn’t matter.

It hardly seems out of line to know for sure. The public also deserves to know why FBI has refused to answer a Freedom of information Act request and claims it has no way of knowing how many “bump stocks” have been used elsewhere in violent crimes.

As for Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker not having authority to sign the rule, this column shared that question posed by attorney Stamboulieh on December 9.  Curiously, almost two weeks later, The Washington Post reported that was a serious concern among “senior Justice Department officials.”

One other factor makes this complaint unique, and that involves a “bump stock” I own that started life as an Akins Accelerator. Here’s what Congressional Research Service had to say in its report:

“On December 13, 2006 … ATF … reclassified bump-fire systems like the Akins Accelerator as a machinegun, because it was equipped with a ‘coiled spring’ and initiated automatic fire with a single trigger pull,” the report states. “In an unpublished decision, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit upheld ATF's decision.” Conversely, “Other manufacturers submitted modified ‘bump-fire’ or ‘slide-fire’ stocks that did not include a ‘coiled spring’ or similar mechanisms to the ATF for classification,” the report notes. “From the ATF rulings discussed above, it appears that bump-fire stocks with ‘coiled springs’ and that initiate automatic fire with a single trigger pull are regulated as firearms under the NFA; however, modified stocks without any ‘automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs’ are not similarly regulated.”

The guy in this old poster needs an “ATF/ Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division” badge.

The stock I obtained, signed by inventor Bill Akins and still in its original packaging, was initially approved as “legal,” then was deemed “illegal,” subsequently returned for rework to remove the spring and once more deemed “legal.”  Now it is supposedly illegal again and if I don’t obey the order to rid myself of my twice-confirmed “legal” property, I’ll be branded a felon and subject to life and freedom-destroying punishments. For the record, I have no intention of using it and don’t even own the type of rifle it is made for. I own it, among other reasons, because I consider it a piece of firearms history, because it pleases me to own it, because the gun-grabbers don’t want me to, and because it is my right.

It will be interesting to see what happens next, especially considering three other lawsuits have been filed:

You can read our complaint below:

https://www.scribd.com/document/396418931/Filed-Bumpstock-Complaint-Redacted

Notice of Electronic Filing The following transaction was entered on 12/28/2018 at 9:41 AM EDT and filed on 12/28/2018 Case Name:CODREA et al v. WHITAKER et al Case Number:1:18-cv-03086-RC Filer: … Case Assigned to Judge Rudolph Contreras.

As a matter of necessary disclosure, I have written about or joined with attorney Stephen Stamboulieh in other ventures included in this link.


About David Codrea:David Codrea

David Codrea is the winner of multiple journalist awards for investigating / defending the RKBA and a long-time gun owner rights advocate who defiantly challenges the folly of citizen disarmament.

He blogs at “The War on Guns: Notes from the Resistance,” is a regular featured contributor to Firearms News, and posts on Twitter: @dcodrea and Facebook.

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    robertJack CThe RevelatorJim MacklinGregTorchia Recent comment authors
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    robert
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    robert

    Acting , AG Matt Whitaker is the fox in the Hen House, when is he going to Jail or is he going to Oversee his own Case Hypocrite!!

    Jack C
    Guest
    Jack C

    Perhaps words can be spread to help the petition process at the link below:
    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reverse-bump-stock-ban-against-firearm-parts

    I don’t care about the bump stock, as I never used one and not want one. BUT, this is the first domino to fall, and I want to keep it from falling for the same reason that I would let people I disagree to speak under 1A. If one is prevented from speaking, then many can be prevented from speaking.

    Thanks. God Bless!

    tomcat
    Guest
    tomcat

    @ Revelator Another problem with twisting our founding documents are the immigrants that come here, get into politics and try to do things as was done in their homeland. In many cases they know nothing about our Constitution and could care less about it. How to correct this short of making it illegal for anyone who is not a natural born citizen to be able to hold office is a problem. I think a lot of our problems with the way this country is turning is the hoards of people that come here for a better life but after they… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tomcat. I actually posed a question to a friend who has many liberal views, and he and I debate back and forth anytime we see each other. The actual issue is over Illegal vs Legal immigration as far as the constitution goes. He tried bringing up the subject of open borders. Here is what I proposed to him. I asked if he wanted open borders, and if he was willing to agree to some things to be able to have that. He said Possibly, and asked what he would need to offer. Here is the list I gave him. 1.… Read more »

    GregTorchia
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    GregTorchia

    Revelator -Really like your point of view and the way you bring it across and break it down in plain English for us unformed ,Don’t be so hard on the old guys they’re all scared inside ,they know war isn’t pretty – and we’re not sure if we can still “stand and deliver “-no matter how you dress it up ,,It will probably be a civil atrocity of biblical proportions-1776

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @GregTorchia The Trouble is, using Oldmariine as an example, the old guys are coming from a different period in time with a different perspective. They lived through it so it isn’t always as easy to go back and recognize the mistakes that were made historically. On top of that, what they lived through was much tougher in many ways though we think back to them as the good old times. In all honesty, I have no doubts my generation will be much the same. When it comes to Oldmariine, he’s one of the old school. The Marines today are very… Read more »

    GregTorchia
    Guest
    GregTorchia

    Revelator -Really like your point of view and the way you bring it across and break it down in plain English for us uninformed ,Don’t be so hard on the old guys they’re all scared inside ,they know war isn’t pretty – and we’re not sure if we can still “stand and deliver “-no matter how you dress it up ,,It will probably be a civil atrocity of biblical proportions-1776

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine
    I am not against or for the ban just taking a pragmatic look from another point of view
    Semper fi

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Oldmariine This is in answer to both of your posts. A bumpstock is not a stand alone device. It is an accessory. The entire reason for the ban is that it can be attached to a firearm and helps someone pull a trigger much faster by using the natural reset of the trigger sear. It does not change the function of the firearm, but at the same time it is not a stand alone device because in order for it to do what it was designed for it must be attached to a firearm. Trying to correlate that to clothing(Robes)… Read more »

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine thoughts on a Bump Stock Ban Bump Stock Technical they are a plactic attachment to another device Gunsmiths do not recognize them as a gun or a part of a gun. They are a standalone device like and extension cord or a plow to a tractor. Judges wear a black robe which is an attachment to the position in court. A ban really has no effect on the constitution but can confuse emotional responses who feel is part of a gun. It does effect the human action required in firing a gun “IF attached.” Remenber that NOTHING physical happens… Read more »

    Nottinghill
    Guest
    Nottinghill

    It would appear that the majority of NRA members are not signing the White House Petition because no celebrity has not instructed them to do so.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    Some aren’t because of their views on the president. Just be careful you don’t get attacked if it looks like you have run afoul of them(already saw it happen).

    In any case, keep linking the petition if you can, and not just here. I’ve told family and friends about it, and even engaged some vets I met in a store the other day with a conversation about it after I shook their hands to thank them. Love some of the random talks you can have when you take the time to give to a stranger.

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>>> The Revelator
    So you speak the truth? Read This

    https://navyseals.com/nsw/hell-week-0/
    https://www.thebalancecareers.com/seal-training-hell-week-3356097
    https://www.military.com/military-fitness/navy-special-operations/navy-seal—hell-week-revisited

    the “Crucible”, a final 54-hour field event that tests the recruits on the knowledge, skills and values
    Shame Do or Die Semper Fi

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Oldmariine Was just going off what was asked of me by a Marine I knew in person. This was explained to you before, including how he said refer to it as “Hell Week” so the idiots who don’t understand what the Cruciable is and don’t know any better can go “Oh, I get it.” You chose to make it personal on the last article. You engaged in hypocrisy, and you directly lied. Lets try this. You stated that all the anti Second amendment bills and laws were being started and pushed by “oath breakers”. Now, you repeatedly attacked everyone and… Read more »

    Tionico
    Guest
    Tionico

    He was the one to stated his desire for, and then tasked the DOJ with creating the bumpstock ban, in other words violating the Second Amendment. got a specific cite for that claim? My understanding, from some pretty credible sources, turns things out a bit differenly. AND how do you KNOW he’s anti-Second Article, or perhaps instead deliberatley planting the seeds for a blowup of the whole thing by NOT putting this before COngress as it is required by law to have done. but instead having petty exec department drones “make law” (they are not allowed to) and the temp… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tionico You are still letting your emotions get the better of you. You really need to think before you comment. So to answer your question, what if I can show you with the words from Donald Trumps own mouth? I made that statement fully ready to cite that claim. An Article along with embedded video. https://www.guns.com/news/2018/02/21/trump-announces-bump-stock-ban Or, just the video itself from the article https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkZz57CpliA For ease of reference, his comment starts at the 3:10 minute Mark and goes roughly to the 3:45 minute mark. Out of his own mouth. “I signed a memorandum directing the DOJ to create a… Read more »

    Joe
    Guest
    Joe

    We need to get Ted Cruz nominated to replace Trump for the 2020 election. If Trump is on the ticket, we are gonna have a Democrat for president. Traitor Trump has lost his pro gun base and they will not be voting in 2020. I can’t vote for a president, that orders gun control and confiscation. Had he been truthful and said he was going to do this crap, I would not have voted for him in 2016. Trump basically traded a 2nd term for a piece of plastic.

    Tionico
    Guest
    Tionico

    Not bad idea…EXCEPT here we are wanting to make the Constitution our ruleboook, right? Well, minor wrinkle with Cruz: NOT ELIGIBLE. Yes, he had his hat in the ring before, illegally.. Born in Canada of American mother and Cuban father. No “foreign birth of American citizen” paper filed. Natural Borh Citizen MUST have all three of these things: Born IN the USA *US embasies, military bases, etc, can provide exceptions….. possibly) Born of a woman who is a US Citizen at the time of the birth Born of a man who is a US Citizen at the time of the… Read more »

    tomcat
    Guest
    tomcat

    @ Tionico That is what I was thinking when I read the post favoring Cruz. He is a Constitutionalist but his birth makes him ineligible as Pres. or V.P. If he would have won the candidacy the left would have totally destroyed him and the GOP. Not even mentioning Obama.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tomcat

    Please reference the forthcoming comment I just posted directly to Tionico and yourself. Unfortunately we have a lot of work to do restoring the constitution and its original intent. I have tried to lay out some history and examples for you as a means of helping clear up the questions you may have. The Subject of birthright citizenship has been one of the most twisted and contorted since the beginning of our nation.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tionico and Tomcat Unless you go back and look at what the Constitution says, what was said when it was written, and the understanding of original intent in 1789-91. Keep in mind this is prior to the 14th amendment passed in 1868 which suddenly included terminology of borders. At the time of the American Revolution one of the most prominently read books in the colonies was William Blackstone’s treatise on law. This is something which would have affected their thinking. Here is what he had to say regarding citizenship. “Allegiance, both express and implied, is however distinguished by the law… Read more »

    tomcat
    Guest
    tomcat

    @ Rev. I understand what you are saying, however, in the political climate that exists I am sure there would be challenge after challenge from the anti Constitutionalists. That would tie hands behind the back just as is being done now with the Trump investigation. The constant fighting really benefits every citizen of this country.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tomcat. I understand that completely. It is what I have been trying to convey to Tionico now whenever he and I have gotten into it for the last 6 months. Unfortunately, there are people who will twist and turn the constitution and weaken it by doing so. And when you add into that getting people to put aside opinions and engage with facts even when it is a result they don’t care for is next to impossible, the odds in our favor are not good and those opinions just weaken our argument against the Anti Constitutionalists. But there are those… Read more »

    Tionico
    Guest
    Tionico

    You are being silly and haughty beyoind belief. Emoutioins are NOT a part of my position, not one whjit. Get over that idea. From the reading I’ve done on the matter, which was extensive back when the kinyun was seeking, and later landed, his faux position as president. baacks up my claim that NATURAL BORN CITIZEN requires one to be born whithin the US< with certain exceptions, of TWO parents who were citizens of the US AT THE TIME OF THE BIRTH. Extraconstitutional contmmporaneous writingg I studied during that season made it plain that the INTENT of those who wrote… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tionico Oh, silly is it? Then you should love this. Ok, first of all, Lets look at Obama since you brought him up. Have you ever gone back and looked at the files? Barry Senior was in the country legally, and in Hawaii at the time, if he truly is Barrack Obama’s Father. here is the Catch though. Obama’s mother, Miss Dunham, at the time she claimed to be married to Obama Sr, Obama Sr already had a wife and Kids back in Africa. In addition to that, in the months or pregnancy leading up to his birth, miss Dunham… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Joe

    I might still be able to vote for Cruz. He was my primary candidate of choice in 2016, though his subsequent cave in and a few other issues now give me a slight pause. Would still have to hold him accountable if he got the ticket, but I don’t believe he would violate the constitution the way Donald Trump has. That however is just my opinion, so take it with a few grains of salt.

    Robert
    Guest
    Robert

    The Revelator,
    I am with you, keep up the good work!

    Repo
    Guest
    Repo

    i kinda figured all along the reason trump,nra and others didnt come out real strong against this is they new if it wasnt done thru congress it would never hold up in the courts. to truly make bumpstocks illegal they would have to make bouncing the gun/trigger against your finger illegal. as long as you can steady your hand you can use the trigger gaurd to let your finger slide back and forth as gun bounces. so many ways to accomplish and fine tune and maybe improve on bumpstocks

    Jon S
    Guest
    Jon S

    Giving Trump a pass then because he decided to risk the Second Amendment and future bans on the liberal courts?

    Repo
    Guest
    Repo

    Not a pass but if he had come out and fought against bumpstock bans it could have been a real rallying point for the antis . They could have tried to get Congress to act and pass an actual law instead of this decision that won’t survive legal challenges. Who knows how many rinos would have caved and who knows what else could have been added to the law. This way all their time was wasted on a decision and now they don’t have as much public support to try to force Congress to do anything.

    james
    Guest
    james

    By design this ‘ban’ will end up in the courts. Pres. Trump and Wayne are not stupid, Congress could have acted and made things a lot worse. Place schematic drawings of full and semi AR side by side with parts list, you do not have to be an engineer or firearms expert to notice parts are missing from the Semi Auto Ar. Agree with earlier post that a one armed man can not use the bump stock. Next, read the Abstract for US Patent # US8127658B1, to use it requires the trigger be pushed each time a round is fired.… Read more »

    Jon S
    Guest
    Jon S

    Trump has made many anti-gun comments in the past. Trump supports “Taking the guns first and giving due process later” in the form of red-flag laws. If you are correct and think the Almighty Gun Lovin’ Trump did this only to fail you couldn’t be more wrong. Trump does not like to lose. He has put into the hands of liberal courts the power to decimate the Second Amendment. If this is upheld in the liberal court system and future president can simply instruct his Justice Dept and ATF to ban magazines, red dots, single point slings or whatever because… Read more »

    Gerry in AZ
    Guest
    Gerry in AZ

    No illusions about the President or anyone else. I, for one, most definitely do NOT support this overreach by the ATF on his watch. But I’m not one to decide that my support for any president is based on one issue. There is too much at stake overall. I’ll gladly hammer him over this while praising him for fighting China with tariffs, fighting the dems on most everything, and closing down the Syria adventure before it becomes yet another quagmire.

    Frank Clarke
    Guest
    Frank Clarke

    “…fighting China with tariffs…”
    Who pays a tariff, the seller or the buyer? A: the buyer.
    That is: Trump is taxing U.S.citizens in the name of “fighting China”.
    A tariff amounts to drinking poison in hopes it will kill your enemy. A more stupid action is hard to imagine.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    Hit the nail on the head with that one Frank.

    Don’t worry, they probably aren’t too familiar with how Tariffs create windfalls, or even what that is either.

    David Altenhoff
    Guest
    David Altenhoff

    The FBI really scares the crap out of me
    They have always abused there power since there creation. The government created the organized crime syndicates because of the volstead act. Then they responded by creating a federal police agency. They have been abusing their power since there creation. They are a secret state police organized like the Gestapo. They always get who they want by hook or crook or fire. They can not be trusted ever. Never talk to them period. You know that there is a reason no one was allowed to examine those weapons.

    Mierdita
    Guest
    Mierdita

    The big difference between the FBI and the Gestapo, is that the Gestapo acrtually tried to solve crimes! But the similarity is so apparent, since the Gestapo and the FBI are politically motivated and controlled by Party Ideology.

    Tionico
    Guest
    Tionico

    Well done, Sir. And I think Mr. Stamboulieh is the perfect lawyer type to help this one. Having watched and read his work in the past I’ve observed he is a very insightful sort, able to look at the whole bear, see past and around all the fur, fat, muscle, KNOW where the jugular vein is, and go for that. Seems he’s got about three jugulars in his sights in this one. If ANY ONE of those points carries with the judge, we stand a high likeliood of getting an injunction in place. I find it very signficant that it… Read more »

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>> Tionico
    That’s OK sir I don’t know who ” The Revelator ” is, Never heard of her.
    1st amendments rights, keep up your good comments.
    Semper Fi

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Oldmariine.

    Yeah, referring to a guy as a she, and feigning ignorance. Par for the course with you, but if you still want to try throwing insults around I guess that must be normal for senility at 82.

    On a side note, yes, this comment from Tionico was on point.

    Robert Messmer
    Guest
    Robert Messmer

    Quote: “I know that this is not removal of the second but it all the same has to start somewhere does it not.” It started a long time ago with the first unconstitutional infringement of the constitutionally unfettered right to keep and bear arms. When the first special tax was levied and the first restriction applied. Bump stocks are just a continuation.

    James Brown
    Guest
    James Brown

    I agree with that I should have worded that comment a little different. You are correct sir it started way back when then first anti gun mind mentioned it in a personal argument, back when a school kid was against it because a family membered had been killed even thou it may or may not of been a crime directed towards them, and with the first tax or restriction they ever even thought about placing on arms. You are correct it start way before now and way before the AWB of the 90s I mentioned and we will always most… Read more »

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    It takes three actions for a bump fire stock to function. 1. The trigger must be pulled. 2. The gun must recoil. 3. The shooter must push the gun forward with their support hand to pull the trigger for the second and each subsequent shot. I have a Ruger AR556 with a very effective muzzle brake added. I do not perceive any recoil. I don’t have teh money to buy a bumpfire stock to experiment, but I doubt the setup would function with the effective muzzle break. Years ago the TV show THE FUGITIVE starring David Jansen, he was looking… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    Just out of curiosity from a Gun guy, what brake are you using?

    I’ve got an Epsilon VG6 on my rifle currently, but may be building a pistol AR if funds allow(Single homeowner syndrome). If there is a more effective option I’d love to check it out should I get the chance.

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin
    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Jim Macklin

    Thanks man. Nice three slanted baffles with top porting. No wonder. That thing is pretty much a tank brake

    I was able to get my VG6 for about $56 shipped to me a while back. When they came out normal price was between $80 to 100, so I nabbed one when I could.

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    I got mine from Primary Arms on a one-day flash sale. $16
    Sorry

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Jim Macklin Hey, no need for apologies man. Get deals where ever you can get them. I did a lot of research on rifle brakes prior to deciding on the Epsilon, and I just checked last night too. MSRP is still up around $86 on them, so finding them for the AR 15 is going to be in the $70 range depending on where you look. The Ak Variant I saw going for just shy of $50. In any case, I still got a heck of a deal compared to full price on mine. Glad you got yours at such… Read more »

    Mott
    Guest
    Mott

    I do not understand how they get that a “Bump Stock” is a machine, As far as I know the only moving part(s)
    are a SPRING. And if a SPRING makes it a machine gun then there are a LOT of “Machine Pens” out there!

    Roy D.
    Guest
    Roy D.

    Only the original “bump stock” had a spring and was ruled against prompting the removal of the spring. It has been many years since that time and none of the others had one. That is the point, it takes the person holding the gun pushing forward on the gun to allow the bump stock to work as advertised. You take a real machinegun and pull the trigger and it will fire until you release the trigger. It requires no other action on the shooters part. Not so with a bump stock.

    Mott
    Guest
    Mott

    Thanks, Have never used a “Bump Stock”, machine gun yes Thanks for the info.

    Ranger Gus
    Guest
    Ranger Gus

    I’m an NRA member and staunch defender of the 2nd Amendment, in fact, I believe the 2nd Amendment is your license to carry concealed or openly in every state and that all state laws restricting one’s right to carry should be ruled unconstitutional. Every legal citizen in the U.S. has the right to self-defend or protect others from harm. I draw the line however, when it comes to machine guns, bump stocks (that turn semi-autos into machine guns), bazookas, grenades, tanks, jet fighters and bombers and/or other military grade mass casualty weapons. Those who think ‘we the people’ should possess… Read more »

    Derek M Smith
    Guest
    Derek M Smith

    Sorry, but you are a fudd. They will not stop with bump stocks which DONT turn semi autos in machine guns. Anti-Gunners want all guns banned and will do so one piece at a time.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Ranger Gus The 2nd Amendment applies to individual arms. I love when people try to lump in Tanks(Which are legal to own surprisingly, just like cars) jets, and even “Oh my goodness nukes and cruise missles!” Whether you agree that machine guns are covered or not, that is your opinion. The Second Amendment states no infringements however, so your opinion is meaningless. It also means you are not a supporter of the constitution. You either Support it or you don’t, and you are going to have to pick between supporting your opinion and supporting the Constitution. I don’t care about… Read more »

    Nottinghill
    Guest
    Nottinghill

    I’ll second that revelation! It just goes to show that with time and repetition anyone even those who believe in the 2A can be sidetracked into marxist/socialist “Group Think”. The NRA, NSSF etc. have been very much a part of that type of reasoning amongst those with that pervasive thought.

    Ranger Gus
    Guest
    Ranger Gus

    @ Nottinghill ……. NUTS back atcha !

    Nottinghill
    Guest
    Nottinghill

    Mine are Branded! Guaranteed to be brassier bigger and saltier even after +10k licks. Like the Clackers from the 70’s.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Nottinghill I’m not sure Ranger Gus intended to make the “Weapons of War” argument that the left tries to routinely. If it was inadvertent no harm no foul. If it was intentional, then let him admit it. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. My hope is that it was inadvertent and he knows better now. There are a few here though who defended his original comment or those like them, and therefore are defending the position the left takes and argues even as they claim to be constitutionalists. They have argued against the constitution in the… Read more »

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>> Ranger Gus
    Don’t pay any attention to what’s her name ” The Revelator ” She doesn’t understand anyone’s opinion but hers.
    She means well but sees only one opinion…. hers . and gives any other pinons hell. Semper Fi

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Oldmariine. Still mad that I caught you in a lie huh Oldmariine. It’s not about opinions. Evidence proves fact, facts show truth. The fact that you are still trying to push opinions instead of actually making your words match your actions, and you do so with lame attacks meant to destroy the messenger. For those curious, Oldmariine is upset because he was attacking anyone and everyone who was criticizing Donald Trump for pushing the bump stock ban. His own words were “I would rather have all bumpstocks melted down than lose the 2nd” in addition to added comments about how… Read more »

    Tionico
    Guest
    Tionico

    Knock it off, Revelator. I read OldMarine’s writings, and yes he typed those words you cite, but he also typed a whole lot more that put it all ino context. You are carrying on like a bored old woman with a grudge tucked under the tatty old shawl she has on her shoulders, rambling the neighbourhood and tattling. Dontchya think the rest of us are big enough, if we even care, to READ Old Marine’s (and your) words and figure it out? Curl that gnarly old pointy finger back up into your claw and leave it be. There have been… Read more »

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @Tionico Thank you for speaking directly to me. However, the comment about “paid trolls” only weakens your argument. I believe in consistency. Make your actions match your words. If you stand for the constitution, then show me by your actions. If your words match, then we have no problem. If they don’t I call people on it. Should we ask if your comment here is part of a grudge since you chose not to answer my question to you when we last spoke on that other article? Like I said, make your actions match your words. Oldmariine chose to bring… Read more »

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    The Second Amendment was adopted because the Constitution did not adequately protect the ability of the people’s ability to form an unorganized militia when a force was needed to depose a tyrant. The word “keep” means the people have the right to keep possession of the arms and munitions under their control and in locations that are safe from government confiscation. Just one of the lessons learned on April 19, 1775. The Constitution of 1788 provided that the Congress had the power to organize and arm the militia. Patrick Henry, George Mason and others recognized that tyrant or a budding… Read more »

    Repo
    Guest
    Repo

    I think the 2 recent court decisions (supreme court on atleast one I’m pretty sure) that ruled stunguns and nunchucks are protected under the 2nd amendment should help overturn all gun bans at the federal and state level. If those 2 items are protected how can any firearm not be? There is a challenge buy GOA I believe to recognize the plain wording of the 2nd amendment and it has a good chance of being successful based on nunchucks and stunguns being successful.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    We can only hope Repo. I don’t trust the Judicial branch any more than the other two, but we might get lucky here.

    If not, I will not be complying.

    Repo
    Guest
    Repo

    I sure hope so as well revelator. I’m so sick of riding the highs and lows in this fight. I’ve always wondered why no one ever challenged the plain wording of the text. I suppose it could be it’s a huge risk, all or nothing possibly in the decision. I do think these few other victories of other types of weapons most don’t realise are protected by the 2nd could really help the plain wording argument. It makes the most sense when you look at the facts and if successful I think it would have to turn over all bans,restrictions,and… Read more »

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>> Jim Macklin
    Great post, good information well appreciated. Thanks for taking a logical look at the problem. Semper Fi

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    The Bill of rights was actually a compromise made to ensure passage of the Constitution in 1789.

    After its adoption there were plenty of Federalists who wanted to ignore this promise and just leave things as they were. If memory serves correct, Alexander Hamilton who was one of the staunchest opponents of a Bill of Rights was also one of the men responsible for keeping the promise after 1789, giving us the amendments added and ratified in 1791. The Anti Federalists won that argument.

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    It wasn’t so much as a compromise but a condition. The Compromise was the anti-slavery compromise that counted slaves as 3/5 of a person. This was so the population used to determine the number of Congressmen in each state would not shift total power to the slave holing south.
    We have a similar problem now in California and Texas with illegal invaders shifting political power.
    Once the weaknesses in the 1788 Constitution were pointed out passage of a Bill of Rights ceased to be a point of contention.

    al
    Guest
    Nottinghill
    Guest
    Nottinghill

    It is down right despicable to look at low number of signers to the petition. I remember when the ‘Nat’l Reciprocity Act’ was introduced every Jack and Joe was on it. What even those who live in ‘May Issue’ states to to support them fully of which the majority did… but to those ‘So-called’ 2A supporters that have the MSM frame of mind on bumpstock accessories I say, NUTS!

    TexDan
    Guest
    TexDan

    I signed the petition and also sent it off to multiple others, including those who have Bump Stocks. Guess what? None of them signed it. How many folks in the US bought Bump Stocks and they will not even sign the petition? I don’t own a Bump Stock, so the banning or otherwise of this device does not affect me and my desires. Yet, I signed and they will not, as they believe the Government will get their names and go after them. How many of these folks, who bought these devices have even called their representatives/the NRA/the GOA or… Read more »

    Heed the Call-up
    Guest
    Heed the Call-up

    Nottinghill, I signed it as soon as I saw the first post about it on this site. I don’t own a bump stock, but this is about more than just bump stocks. If they can get approved, they can ban anything firearm-related.

    Qua Murphy
    Guest
    Qua Murphy

    A little off topic…..Im not big on commenting but I am a NRA member and i constantly am getting requests from them for donations. But where is the NRA in all of this “nonsense “? I hate to say but my membership renewal is coming up and i think i may just save it and send to the GOA..

    TNcitizen
    Guest
    TNcitizen

    We have never seen an infringement constructed in this fashion. The rule requires owners to destroy or surrender an item that is not serialized. No doubt the sellers kept records to satisfy IRS reporting. The BATFE could seize those records to establish a list of buyers. At any rate the owners should then keep the scraps of plastic for the rest of their lives just in case a knock on the door comes. If they chose to surrender their scraps of plastic at the nearest BATFE office in hopes of preventing the knock on the door by being taken off… Read more »

    Laddyboy
    Guest
    Laddyboy

    According to the Constitution; ‘EX POST FACTO’ laws are UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Therefore, according to the Constitution, they CANNOT BE ENFORCED!
    The communistic politicians in Maryland have shown their hand against LAW ABIDING American CITIZENS. They have deemed “bump stocks” are unnecessary and must be banned from ownership.

    David
    Guest
    David

    It’s not a law, it’s a change in ATF regulation.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    @David

    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it’s a ……….

    If you have a bumpstock and this goes into effect, do you think they will just give you a fine for violating a regulation, or will they haul you into court and prosecute you for having criminally violated a law, and punish you under the law by taking away your rights?

    Looking forward to hearing your answer.

    Joseph P Martin
    Guest
    Joseph P Martin

    Any time the BATFE is given any more authority or makes any kind of decision on their own (Administrative law, which is unconstitutional, but has the “authority” of law) it is a BAD thing. Supposedly there are no absolutes, but in the case of the BATFE, if they are involved in any way, shape or form, it is ABSOLUTELY a bad thing. They are the joke of law enforcement across the nation, the bottom of the LEO barrel and the last bastion of “cop wanna-bes” who can’t qualify for Mall security or school crossing guards.

    Gerry in AZ
    Guest
    Gerry in AZ

    In light of the information Mr. Codrea has given us here, I have to disagree with your assessment of the ATF, at least in this particular case. It is quite clear that the bump-stock ban is NOT the ATF’s real opinion, but rather that they were ordered to come up with it. I’m an unashamed Trump supporter, but the Constitution, the impartial application of laws and the truth come first. I hope the DC Courts will see the ban for what it is – a combination of knee-jerk reaction and a “see, we did something!” moment at the expense of… Read more »

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    Back in the 1970s and 80s ATF would answer questions about what the 68 GCA allowed. Some agents lied to callers and got the name and address of the person. Then they would arrest the person for doing what they had been told was legal. This was proven during Senate hearings and the 1986 FOPA was the result. Hughes [D – NJ 2] added the machine gun ban on new manufacture and registration. That’s is why a 1928 Thompson that cost 10 ounces of gold in 1934, cost 25-30 thousand dollars today for the same gun. It is why a… Read more »

    Andy
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    Andy

    Remember, “FEAR THE OLD MAN, IN A WORLD WHERE MEN DIE YOUNG”!

    Oldmariine
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    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>>> Andy My sentiments completely. I too am Old ( 82) with 21 months in Vietnam. and I am a collector of unusual guns. I feel the same way, Don’t mess with an old man because he’s near the end of his life and has nothing to loose. ” come and take it” Is a good response to someone who is really trying robbing you. Our eye sight may not be the best but a scope helps us settling the score. I appreciate your bravery and your resolve to stand for your rights both natural and civil. Semper Fi

    Andy
    Guest
    Andy

    I am 72 years old, have had three heart operations, stage 4 cancer, been stabbed, etc. and if the ATF thinks for one moment that I will not “STAND AND FIGHT” they had better come heavy. Over 35 members of my family have been in every conflict from WWI to the present and this country is NOT what we fought for. MOLON LABE !!

    GregTorchia
    Guest
    GregTorchia

    Pretty funny young communist/Democrats think that us old guys are done /you better save your Dixie cups and pack a tractor trailer full of lunches -because the south is going to rise again/I just hope I live to see the day that the constitution is loved by all members of our free society/EMP when it Happens / and it will happen according to all experts we’ll find out who has true grit and who the pantywaist keyboard commando’s are/1776 on steriods

    phil morris
    Guest
    phil morris

    please don’t get me wrong , but at 60yrs old I feel like we the people should not have to be coerced/fear mongered into the constant effort of endless supporting/funding any political party/organization to retain our god given/constitutional rights , the decline of America has been/is a disgraceful/painful thing to witness/endure , remember there is nothing more dangerous than old people who have nothing left to lose , better to die with honor than live in disgrace , god bless America and god save the republic , I pray we shall meet again on the other side god willing

    tomcat
    Guest
    tomcat

    @ Old Marine, Andy, Greg and Phil you guys really hit the nail on the head. I am 76 and I have seen so many changes to this country that it doesn’t even appear the same as when I was growing up. I spent my time in the military, as well and I believed the Oath then and I believe it now. Who the hell do these liberal gun grabbers think they are, oh yea they were elected and think they are doing what the citizens want done. Let me rephrase that from citizen to subjects.

    Michael Breeds
    Guest
    Michael Breeds

    Why was there not a grandfather clause included and if they reclassified weapons with Bumpfire type devices as “Machineguns” why not provide a option to provide one time registration fee waved tax stamp?

    Whdlsn
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    Whdlsn

    I read that an official response to that question was bump stocks could not be issued a tax stamp, free or otherwise. This is due to the ‘Hughes Ammendment’ in the ’86 gun control act. ‘Hughes States no new full auto weapons, made after May of ’86, may be issued a transferable tax stamp. This is the reason they cited for no path for regulated ownership of bump stocks under the draconian ruling. By the way, the also indicated t that ‘Hughes’ is the reason no more Amnstaies will ever occur. There were three allowed under the 1968 VAC, the… Read more »

    Carl "Bear" Bussjaeger
    Guest
    Carl "Bear" Bussjaeger

    Because they are classifying these as machineguns. They were manufactured after May 1986. Therefore, they are outright banned for civilian possession per FOPA of ’86 (another compromise brought to us by the NRA).

    Jim Macklin
    Guest
    Jim Macklin

    I’m almost 73 years old and have been studying history, laws and law-making almost 60 years. FOPA GCA 1986 was an important fix to years of abuse by ATF.. Once it was almost a sure thing to pass, and for no apparent reason, a Democrat from NJ Congressman and as I recall an NRA Director banned new machineguns. The actual number of machineguns eligible more than doubled. But it is most certainly unconstitutional. Further the bump stock regulation exceeds the authority of the ATF and infringes teb powers of the Congress. It will go to the Supreme Court and everything,… Read more »

    Oldmariine
    Guest
    Oldmariine

    Oldmarine >>> Jim Macklin An even better post than the last one. Good analysis and a good conclusion Let me put to you tactics to address this problem of illogical attacks on the Constitutions. What do you believe is the best method to counter these attacks? Petitions:))))))))))) Based on opinions. Takes many signatures. Is a Sometimes effective, 50-50 chance. Can Cost some Money to support. Can take real convincing for people to sign up. Signers opinions vary a lot. Against a action and not an individual. Law Suite:))))))))))) Civil Court requiring a Jury. Jury must be convinced and agree with… Read more »

    Thomas Steinke
    Guest
    Thomas Steinke

    Sir, you left out the link to the Complaint your attorney filed. I would very much like to read it. This case will not ultimately address the 2nd Amendment because it doesn’t have to. Under the laws governing administrative rules, the rule making process cannot be used to change a statutory definition. The agencies have some wide discretion in interpreting laws, but when there is a fixed, clear definition of something in a statute (as there is in the case of defining “machine gun”), the rule making process can’t be used to change or expand the definition. It will take… Read more »

    Wild Bill
    Guest
    Wild Bill

    @Thomas Steinke, “… the laws governing administrative rules…” is the Administrative Procedures Act. And yes, I concur with your analysis. I am guessing that this whole bump stock issue was planned so that the BATFE or the court would end up holding the bag. Just my guess.

    Andy
    Guest
    Andy

    Withat next? That $600 suppressor you’ve been waiting a year for? Molon Labe !!!

    Mike Suede
    Guest
    Mike Suede

    Please don’t say that Andy. I am still waiting for my tax stamp.

    John Shaw
    Guest
    John Shaw

    All I can say is MOLON LABE, come and take them!

    GregTorchia
    Guest
    GregTorchia

    Boris and Natasha says it was moose and squirrel

    Repo
    Guest
    Repo

    i wonder if these lawsuits are successful at the federal level what effect that will have on the states that banned bumpstocks with no grace period and no compensation for taking private property.

    Ron
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    Ron

    Good point Repo. It’s these so-called ‘judges’ that seem to hold the key.
    A good web site is………… jail4judges.org
    It’s certainly where a large majority of them belong.
    R1

    Robert Messmer
    Guest
    Robert Messmer

    Probably none. Remember only abortion and queer marriage became legal nationally because SCOTUS said so. Second Amendment which is part of the Supreme Law of the Land is only recognized partially and only where the government has been forced to.

    The Revelator
    Guest
    The Revelator

    Well, Add this one to the list. GOA got the ball rolling, now lets see how many suits stack up.

    League Barcly
    Guest
    League Barcly

    Thank you sir! How can we help?

    James Duane Brown
    Guest
    James Duane Brown

    I agree whole heartedly especially with the closing statement of becoming a felon if not submitting to their rules. I disagree with it and what it eventually will lead to. The lack of education of topics such as this in a country such as American where our entire existence is hinged on the 2A. I am a firm believing that with out the 2nd then the rest want exeist before long. I know that this is not removal of the second but it all the same has to start somewhere does it not. What’s next if this is allowed where… Read more »