MI: Detroit Suspect Snatched Open Carry Pistol Off Bystander

Screenshot of image from video surveillance released by the police, cropped and scaled by Dean Weingarten

U.S.A.-(AmmoLand.com)- On 28 January, a young man in a red hoodie snatched a pistol from a man openly carrying it, in Detroit, Michigan.

The video of the event is found here. ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq2zQp0_1l8 )

The robbery occurred in the BP gas station at Seven Mile and Wyoming Ave. A confederate held the store door open. It was unclear if there was another confederate in the getaway vehicle. The getaway vehicle did not have a rear license plate.

Google maps BP at Seven Mile and Wyoming, cropped and scaled by Dean Weingarten

The man openly carrying the pistol was identified as being 53 years old. The surveillance video, released on 20 February, reportedly by the Detroit Police Department, shows the snatch. The open carry victim is busy at the counter with his wallet in his hand.

It appears the crime was not a crime of opportunity but was planned. The perpetrator in the red hoodie does not have to discern the pistol and make a decision. The snatch is done as soon as the pistol is seen. The perpetrator appears to know what is available and what he is going to do.

The pistol appears to be in a simple clip-on holster, which is merely clipped to a pocket. There does not appear to be any retention strap. The image of the black pistol, in a black holster against black pants, makes the resolution of the details difficult.

Screenshot of image from video surveillance released by the police, cropped and scaled by Dean Weingarten

Some early accounts indicated the thief pointed the stolen gun at the owner. That is incorrect. The gun pointed at the owner is a different gun with an extended magazine. The thief was prepared for the robbery in advance.

The resolution of the video makes it difficult to determine if the thief snatched the pistol in the holster or snatched the pistol from the holster.

It is difficult to stop a crime that is well planned, with confederates, to take advantage of a vulnerability. In this case, the man at the counter had his attention occupied, his hands occupied with his wallet, and the pistol had very little retention.

The robber was armed with their own deadly weapon, or reasonable facsimile thereof.

Kofi Kenyatta tells fox2detroit there is a current backlog of applications for concealed pistol licenses in Wayne County, Michigan, where Detroit is located.

From fox2detroit.com:

Kofi Kenyatta is the co-founder and vice president of the Black Bottom Gun Club which advocates for the Second Amendment and promotes safe and responsible gun ownership in Detroit and the surrounding areas.

“As I watched the video I definitely don’t want to blame the victim here, but it’s important that we have a perception of the elements in our immediate environment and make sure that we are aware of surroundings, alert to potential threats as well as being ready and able to react to actualized threats,” Kenyatta said. “Based on the feedback from the numerous instructors that are part of the Black Bottom Gun Club, there are many new Wayne County and Detroit firearm owners – and unfortunately they don’t have the ability to properly, legally obtain their CPLs.”

Kenyatta is referring to the nearly year-long wait to get an appointment with the Wayne County Clerk to apply for a Concealed Pistol License. He and others believe that could lead to more people open carrying.

Renewing permits takes much less time than obtaining a new permit, because of reforms passed in 2015. Many experiences are posted at migunowners.org:

About two weeks ago, a resident of Wayne County recounted obtaining a renewal in five days.

RENEWAL Online 5 days

Received my online renewal confirmation on Feb 1. Post marked on Feb 4th. In my hands on February 6th.

People who carry concealed also have their firearms stolen, sometimes because the robbers do not know they have a firearm.

A retired officer thought the whole situation might be fake, a set-up to obtain clicks. It appears it was pre-planned.

One obvious lesson is to use better firearm and holster retention. There are many better choices for open carry than a  simple clip-on holster.


About Dean Weingarten:Dean Weingarten

Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of Constitutional Carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.

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Terry H
Terry H
2 months ago

A good retention holster is a lot cheaper than a new gun. In addition I cautioned my youngest about open carrying as it seems the younger people face more harassment about it.

Elisa Delaurenti
Elisa Delaurenti
3 months ago

I support OC, but I choose not to for my own safety. As a petite woman of 5’2 and 100lbs, OC’ing makes me a very real target. I’m also appalled at how many women OC in the small of their backs. That’s just stupid and irresponsible.

Cruiser
Cruiser
3 months ago

They watch too much TV. Carrying in the small of your back is cool on TV, but if you get knocked down and fall on your pistol chances are you may damage your spine.

Cruiser
Cruiser
3 months ago

I only carry concealed, I’m old and I’m not quick on the draw. The only thing I have going for me is the element of surprise. I don’t want to be surprised by the other guy, I’d rather surprise him.
If you think you’re the fastest gun in the west, more power to you, odds are I’m not. I’d rather keep them guessing.

Last edited 3 months ago by Cruiser
BigJim
BigJim
3 months ago

Since the get-away vehicle did not have license plates it appears to be well planned out. Maybe too well.

tetejaun
tetejaun
3 months ago

You have to be really stupid to open carry. Might as well be carrying a paper sack full of money. Why advertise?

Pastor Roy
Pastor Roy
3 months ago

Before Missouri passed permitless concealed carry a couple of years ago, I open carried every day. But my 9mm was in a holster that could not have been pulled off of my pants/belt. And the gun itself could not be drawn without pressing the release button. In other words, all but impossible to have stolen as in this scenario. I do not recommend open carry unless your state gives you no choice. If nothing else, it eliminates the element of surprise if you’re ever in a self defense confrontation. Why broadcast that you’re armed? It obviously did nothing to scare… Read more »

tetejaun
tetejaun
3 months ago
Reply to  Pastor Roy

You just said it could come out by pressing the button. So, you think these clowns do not go to the gun store and look at every holster and learn how to defeat them? Clubbing you in the head works good too. Why advertise?

Last edited 3 months ago by tetejaun
musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago

That is why I carry concealed and when I see someone open carry I say, don’t you have a permit? Most say no because I don’t need one and the reason I am carrying is to try and keep open carry alive. I say ok, but you are advertising to gangs that you have a gun. The element of surprise is key to your survival. Then they usually brag about how they can handle anything. I say ok, show them my concealed and say have a nice day as I walk away. CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY WILL END THIS PROBLEM ALL ACROSS… Read more »

Rogue
Rogue
3 months ago

Open carry has it’s place but not while shopping and not in a way that affords criminals such an easy mark.

Get Out
Get Out
3 months ago
Reply to  Rogue

Dude had no situational awareness and no retention holster, had no clue who or what was going on around him. His weapon is hanging loosely out of his ill fitting pants pocket, thief had no resistance to keep him from getting the gun out easily.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago
Reply to  Rogue

unfortunately he is one of many, not a lot but some.

pureamericana
pureamericana
3 months ago

While most everyone can empathize with residents living in urban (D) controlled sewers where violence happens several times a day; you would expect the open carry individual to be better prepared or cover up when
inside close quarters. Cross draw under a loose shirt, practiced many hundreds + of time can be damn quick if required.

ralph
ralph
3 months ago

I have a concealed handgun license and would NEVER consider carrying openly. I think open carry is nothing but showing off and exposes the idiot for exactly what is shown in the video. In the three years since I fled from CA to TX, open carry has been legal and I have seen only one case of open carry. The carrier was an elderly man with a 1911 in a shoulder holster. That is a little safer than belt carry, but still not a wise practice IMO.

Orion
Orion
3 months ago
Reply to  ralph

open carry only applies to permit holders, you would need to travel to Oklahoma to see true constitutional carry and the many who take advantage of the various situations where it works.

Terry
Terry
3 months ago
Reply to  ralph

I would not, in my wildest dreams, mess with an elderly gentleman packing a 1911 in a shoulder holster. This just reaks of a guy that knows what he’s about.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago
Reply to  ralph

I see that you have some thumbs down but I agree. Wouldn’t a mass shooter look for a challenge and take that out first?

nrringlee
nrringlee
3 months ago

If you are going to carry do so responsibly. Get training and get to the range. In this case we must assume that the ‘hood is populated by large numbers of feral hoods. Be aware. Always.

UncAl
UncAl
3 months ago

Just two “yo-mama’s” policing their hood!

JoeUSooner
JoeUSooner
3 months ago

For years I have argued – logically, I hope – against the (admittedly voluntary) practice of open carry… precisely because of the virtually-total lack of firearm security. And, of course, the lack of “surprise” factor. This video supports that stance… I hope people pay attention to it.

Terry
Terry
3 months ago
Reply to  JoeUSooner

While I will support anyone’s right to openly carry firearms, if you go that route – best not let a ghetto-looking, hoodie-wearing individual come between your back and the wall. As several people have noted – if you carry exposed you need an increased level of retention. My personal preference of carrying is to not exhibit the weapon until it is needed.

HoundDogDave
HoundDogDave
3 months ago

Also one of the reasons I ALWAYS carry a BUG (some times 2). I figure if someone wrestles my gun away from me or off my person, as long as they have my gun they are a lethal threat. It’s not like someone walking off with your lawnmower. I believe I would be well within my rights of self defense to shoot them in the back to stop that threat as soon as they turn to get away.

The Crimson Pirate
The Crimson Pirate
3 months ago

Michigan has a disproportionate number of open carry grabs going back more than a decade. Almost all of them were pre planned. Virtually all of them also involve holsters with no retention. Carrying in a retention holster would help immensely. Constitutional carry would also go a long way to stopping this as then the people could conceal. The OCer being shot first is a myth. We have no documented instances of an open carrier being shot at the outset of a crime where the crime wasn’t taking the firearm. In other words we have no instances where someone walked into… Read more »

Pastor Roy
Pastor Roy
3 months ago

I’ve said this more times than I can count. Though I only carry concealed, I’ve never heard of a documented instance in which someone who is open carrying was shot first by a robber. The theory that open carriers make themselves a target is not supported by fact … except as a target to have their gun stolen, as in this case.

Dee
Dee
3 months ago

Will I’m sure the individuals that supports BLM gets all their guns legally and have the right to carry open or concealed!!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

That singular/plural thing is baffling, isn’t it?

What do the individuals who support BLM think about:
https://heyjackass.com/category/2020/

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

You sound like my wife. Lol. I’m just an old chem eng guy. I guess those who can do; those who can’t teach. Thanks for the lesson:)

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Then you understand math. Why is the homicide rate in the Englewood neighborhood of Chicago 15,000% higher than in many other areas in the U.S.?

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Not sure. I live in DFW, TX.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

It’s as mystifying as that singular/plural thing.

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Help us understand it professor.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Most already understand it, but for you: The Englewood neighborhood of Chicago (and about 20 other neighborhoods on the south and west sides), has a dysfunctional micro-culture. The culture in those specific areas values things that are destructive and does not value things that lead to positive outcomes. The culture results in a large percentage of people having very low impulse control. For those people not directly involved in criminal activities, the culture encourages them to not cooperate with LE to arrest and convict violent criminals. The culture is completely different from areas of the country that have very low… Read more »

Terry H
Terry H
2 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Good thing Chicago banned guns.

SK
SK
3 months ago

That’s one reason I choose not to open carry. The other reason is I don’t want to be the first one shot at when the SHTF. Looks like dude had a 30 round mag in that sucker. How do you properly carry that? He’s lucky he didn’t get shot by BLM thug.

Parabellum
Parabellum
3 months ago
Reply to  SK

Read the article

Pastor Roy
Pastor Roy
3 months ago
Reply to  SK

Especially in that last instant when the thug snapped the gun at the victim. I thought for sure he’d shot him at that point.

krunchnik
krunchnik
3 months ago

It is just plain stupid not to carry a pistol in a proper holster-especially openly.
But the thug carrying around a pistol with a 30 round magazine is also kinda special.
And having Politicians telling us we don’t need those high capacity clip magazine bullet thingy’s is also really stupid.

JoeUSooner
JoeUSooner
3 months ago
Reply to  krunchnik

“Politicians”… “stupid”… you repeat yourself.

Levelhead
Levelhead
3 months ago

Something wrong here. The screen shot of the grab shows what looks like a Glock with a flush fit magazine. The next screen shot of the bad guy pointing the gun at somebody shows what looks like a Glock with a 33 rd. magazine sticking out of the butt.
In any case, open carry, especially in a holster without level three security, is dumb and accomplishes nothing except bad stuff for 2A supporters.

Parabellum
Parabellum
3 months ago
Reply to  Levelhead

Read the article

gregs
gregs
3 months ago

well if that man didn’t have that gun, the criminal wouldn’t have been able to steal it and we wouldn’t have another gun on the street, said the gun control activist.
actually the man shouldn’t have carried in such a reckless manner, it looks like it could just fall out of his pocket. might as well have just put it on the counter, would have been safer, but then could have been construed as armed robbery.
someone else mentioned situational awareness, 100% agree, don’t leave money sticking out of your pocket while you are picking your nose.

Montana454Casull
3 months ago

It will just be called a peaceful protest by the left and reparations. He was entitled to that handgun due to the treatment of slaves . If he kills people with it they will call him a radical right winger .

Charles Nichols
Charles Nichols
3 months ago

I can’t tell if the handgun was in a holster stuck in his pocket or simply stuck in his pocket. One thing we can tell is he was not wearing a belt holster let alone a retention belt holster. Under California law, a handgun carried in your pocket, even if it is in a holster, or stuck in your waistband, even if it is in a holster, or otherwise substantially concealed, such as behind your back regardless of whether or not it is in a belt holster carried outside of your clothing or inside of your clothing is not Open… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by Charles Nichols
Finnky
Finnky
3 months ago

Before Texas allowed open carry, any exposure was classified as open carry.

I suspect California’s definition of “concealed” stems from when open carry was legal there while concealed was not.

Not unlike inclusion of SBR and SBS in NFA. They were trying to ban pistols and wanted to prevent firearms which were really concealable pistols, but technically classified as rifles or pistols. Result has been rifles which are technically pistols.

In each case the solution is to simplify the laws – reducing infringement wherever possible. Using example of Texas …. CHL -> LTC -> constitutional carry. = freedom wins.

Charles Nichols
Charles Nichols
3 months ago
Reply to  Finnky

Although there were a few California court of appeals cases on concealed carry prior to 1923, most of the case law on concealed carry has developed since then. California, being an Open Carry state until January 1, 2012, but also being a state filled with criminals and cowards with enough money to file an appeal has had no shortage of concealed carriers trying to overturn their concealed carry convictions by trying to convince the court of appeals that the weapon they had tucked in their pants or in their pocket, or behind their back, or between their car seats, or… Read more »

DonP
DonP
3 months ago

I always just shake my head a Kalifornia’s gun laws. It used to be that if you had a pistol in the trunk of your car, with or without ammunition, it was considered a concealed weapon.

Charles Nichols
Charles Nichols
3 months ago
Reply to  DonP

I’m impressed. Most people, including Californians, don’t know that about concealed carry in California.

Deplorable Bill
Deplorable Bill
3 months ago

Moral to the story; If you are going to carry, carry secure. Now there’s another snot nosed, gangster, punk kid that is armed out there. You can bet he’s not going to take it our shooting with his daddy next Sunday after Church.

Arm up and carry on.

Stag
Stag
3 months ago

Dean nailed it in his last paragraph. Carrying, whether concealed or open, should be done with proper equipment. A properly worn holster with some level of retention as well as situational awareness is all it takes to prevent this from happening.

Last edited 3 months ago by Stag
Cathammer
Cathammer
3 months ago

The use of the term “confederates” will just confuse the average dimocrat reader of this piece.

SK
SK
3 months ago
Reply to  Cathammer

Being from the south I was offended by the use of the term confederate.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago

Another white supremacist gains access to a firearm due to the lack of enhanced background checks.

Rob Pincus, we see your point now.

Dee, we feel your pain.

Last edited 3 months ago by JSNMGC
Terry
Terry
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

It’s because we didn’t compromise hard enough. If we’d only register those full semi-auto weapons of war (capable of firing 100 clips per second) they’ll never ask for more. I know because the democrats promised!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Terry

It would be so refreshing to hear a Republican politician say to a gun law proponent: “What you’re asking for won’t work. If you get what you want now (and then it doesn’t have the effect you are now claiming it will), what will you ask for next?” Instead, the Republican politicians pretend to “fight for our rights” and compromise. Universal Background Checks, “Fix NICS,” and elimination of the three day safety valve are likely to be passed. None of those will work, and the anti 2nd Amendment politicians will come back for more. Ted Cruz and others have seen… Read more »

Orion
Orion
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

trump never pushed for any ban…. not even after the slaughter in Las Vegas.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Orion

Orion,

Trump pushed for numerous forms of gun control (which is what I wrote).

As long as you brought it up, he did order the BATFE to ban bump stocks.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

I read just the other day that a court found the outlaw of the bump stock by the ATF and the court that made them illegal to be illegal so I think they are legal again?.

If anyone would know I bet you do or I know you can find the answer in minuets. One thing I will say about you that I do know, you would make an excellent research analyst.

Stag
Stag
3 months ago
Reply to  Orion

Trump was on record advocating for bans on bumpstocks, silencers, 3D printing, and body armor. He succeeded with only one of those. He also advocated for red flag laws and, having supported the first AWB, said he would be open to another in the future.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Stag

The people who will not acknowledge Trump’s support for gun control are frequently the same ones who don’t want to understand the dynamics of ammo economics.

They not only wallow in their ignorance, they celebrate it.

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Awww….thanks. But I can assure you that most of us BLM supporters get ours legally and have every right to be armed. BLM supporters don’t robbed people especially black people for firearms. We just go to Rifle Gear, etc and purchase them.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee
Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Type this sh!t out please. It’s hard enough to read these comments let alone visit another site especially while sitting on a reactor on a Monday morning. Help me a little bit professor.

Dave in Fairfax
Editor
Dave in Fairfax
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dee,

IF you are working at a desk/console at a reactor, which nobody here believes, GET THE HELL OFF YOUR CELLPHONE AND DO YOUR F’G JOB. Play on the WEB on your own time, not when you are at work.
If they hire people who are as ignorant and incapable of writing in simple English as you are they, and you, are derelict of their duties.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago

And what do you want to bet she is a state worker with a union job if it really has a job at all.

Last edited 3 months ago by musicman44mag
ras52
ras52
3 months ago

Thank you for that post!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Speaking for myself, I have no idea what your education is and what you do for a living. If you say you have a chemical engineering degree and your work involves a reactor, I have no reason to doubt you. The link I provided is to a non-government entity that has done a good job providing actual data on violence in the city of Chicago. By doing some additional research from other sources in order to obtain the population of the most violent neighborhoods, a homicide rate can be calculated. You have indicated numerous times that you believe that black… Read more »

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Englewood Population: 28,000 2020 Homicides 71 2019 Homicides 40 2018 Homicides 54 2017 Homicides 49 Four year total 214 Four year average 53.5 53.5/(28,000/100,000) = Homicides per 100,000 = 191 Area I live in: 1.26 homicides per 100,000 (191-1.26) = 189.74 189.74/1.26 = 150.587 150.587 = 15,058.7% higher rate in Englewood than in my area The area I live in is not unusual – there are many areas like it all over the US. There is poverty and there are drugs. However, the culture does not result in rampant poor decision-making and low impulse control.  Any LEO who has worked in… Read more »

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Wow, you went there. I did a little research myself and found that the areas with the largest percentage of crime are all east of the center line of the US.

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

It’s just data. Macro level data, even by county, does not tell the story. The differences in crime rates are horrific. The fact that Englewood has a homicide rate 15,000% higher than many other areas in the U.S. should be something Republican politicians and firearm rights advocates talk about non-stop. Many of the other neighborhoods on the south and west sides of Chicago have rates of violence that are almost as bad. The differences in culture between those neighborhoods and other places is striking. People just don’t shoot each other over footwear in areas that have a healthy culture. Rob… Read more »

Last edited 3 months ago by JSNMGC
Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

What area you live? Zip code so I can research as well. You may have a point but let me dive into the numbers. Btw, what is is for DFW, TX?

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

I may have a point? If you are a chemical engineer (meaning you earned a chemical engineering degree), the data I provided should convince you the Englewood neighborhood (and to a somewhat lesser extent, the surrounding neighborhoods) are insanely more violent than many areas in the U.S.

The Dallas homicide rate per 100,000 is about 15 and Ft. Worth is about 12.

You don’t need any more information about me (you wanted my life cancelled and ruined and you couldn’t wait for me to die, remember?).

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  JSNMGC

Lol…sounds funny when you put it like that. But you was quoting Trump as “truth” statements. If you know anything about engineering, you never take someone word as an absolutely fact. You always find out for yourself. We also believe in redundancy too but that’s another convo. So again you may have a point but let me vet it and stop with the racist overtones! You might not get canceled. Now grammar check dat!!

JSNMGC
JSNMGC
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

What Trump statements was I quoting? I’ve worked with engineers my whole career. As a group, they are one of the best to work with because they generally run less on feelings and more on facts. Here, I’ll help you out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate I live in Wyoming. The entire state has a homicide rate of 2.2. When you take out the more violent areas of Cheyenne and the Wind River reservation (I don’t live in either area), the entire rest of the state has a rate of less then 2.0. Many areas are less than 1.5. But whether an area is… Read more »

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Boy, read that highly edumacated writing. So now we do know that you are not just a racist but you are a black racist. Even though you say you are a male you chose a female type of name. So maybe you are,,,,, dare I say it?????

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Lol…why you have such a homosexual fantasy?? Girl, I’m a straight dude but I’m sure others on here will entertain you. But btw, how do you edit your comments on here? I have no clue! But girl, you never heard of male ‘Dee’ names? Finally, there’s no black racism in America.

Get Out
Get Out
3 months ago

Appears to me the dude had no situational awareness of any kind, he didn’t even look to see who was coming in the door right next to him. His clothing looked large enough he could have concealed the gun.

RoyD
RoyD
3 months ago

I don’t remember the last time I carried anything but my LCP during my everyday activities. That gun is carried Cond-3 in my right back pocket with a spare mag in my left front pocket. If I am going to the range the G-19 with two additional mags are on my belt. Being an older slightly over weight male I don’t strike most as someone who might kill them should the need arise. And that suits me just fine.

Grigori
Grigori
3 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Why Condition 3? Why not Condition 1? If SHTF, and it usually does so very suddenly as in the above video, you may not have a free hand or the time to rack one into the chamber.

Last edited 3 months ago by Grigori
RoyD
RoyD
3 months ago
Reply to  Grigori

Because that is how I choose to do it.

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  RoyD

Hey Roy I carry that way as well. I have kids ranging from 2-18 (Love child) and just like the guy in the video, little kids are curious when they see weird objects stuck in your jeans. I use other protective methods but I understand condition 3.

Dee
Dee
3 months ago
Reply to  Dee

Dang Roy I get dislikes even when I feel supportive of issues. Why do you think that is sir? Nothing against you of course.