U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)- On 11 February 2021, there was a hearing requested by the Kenosha District Attorney’s office in the self-defense case involving Kyle Rittenhouse. The shooting occurred during the riots in Kenosha, Wisconsin, on 25 August 2020. Judge Schroeder of Kenosha presided over the virtual hearing, which was done on Zoom. The hearing was contentious. Judge Schroeder schooled DA Thomas Binger on the law, bond procedure, and the facts several times during the hearing. In the end, the judge denied Binger’s requests and forbade the DA’s office from accessing the location of Kyle Rittenhouse’s abode.
There exists an extensive video of the riots and the shootings, online from several perspectives. The video shows Kyle Rittenhouse running from the mob and shooting armed attackers in self-defense.
The prosecution of Rittenhouse appears to be political in nature, including at least one charge which appears to be contradicted by statute.
DA Thomas Binger from Kenosha started off the hearing, characterizing Rittenhouse as dangerous, irresponsible, and violating the terms of his bond.
DA Thomas Binger was brought up short by Judge Bruce E. Schroeder, who showed the DA was aware of the issue of where Rittenhouse was staying on the original bond, had the opportunity to request limitations on where Rittenhouse would stay, had not asked for limitations, and no limitations were imposed by the judge. Judge Schroeder explained to DA Binger the difference between a place of abode and an address for receiving notification of court hearings.
Judge Schroeder made clear his policy that people involved in incidents before the court would not be referred to as “victims” before the case was adjudicated. Calling some parties “victims” is, in effect, pre-judging the case, particularly when self-defense is claimed.
DA Thomas Binger said he filed a motion for a gag order in this case.
The effect of a gag order would be to only allow the prosecution version of the case to appear in the court of public opinion, thus tainting and biasing the jury pool, as well as promoting the DA’s political narrative.
Throughout the hearing, the DA and others DA Binger had invited to the hearing, attempted to smear Rittenhouse with the accusations of white supremacy and to invoke racism.
Judge Schroeder stated he would not involve race in his courtroom and he would not allow anyone to be judged by the color of his skin.
DA Binger and Gaige Grosskruetz’s lawyer, Kimberly Motley, repeatedly made the claim that not knowing a person’s abode was “highly unusual” and “required for all criminal defendants”. Judge Schroeder repeatedly showed this to be false.
The judge pointed out that Rittenhouse has shown up for every hearing, on time. He noted that the court had the cash for the bond.
Judge Schroeder: “I want to have a fair trial in this case. This case is not going to be decided by demonstrators. I do not want to hear about a demonstration.”
DA Thomas Binger admitted he does not have clear and convincing evidence to revoke the bond as required by law.
John Huber is the father of Anthony Huber. Anthony was recorded on video attacking Kyle Rittenhouse with a skateboard and struggling to take Rittenhouse’ rifle before Anthony was shot. Anthony’s father was allowed to make a statement. Huber became confrontational with the judge, about taking off a mask he was wearing. The judge was gentle with him, but Huber took off the mask.
Huber then appears to read a prepared statement characterizing the people supporting Kyle Rittenhouse as “hate groups” and “militia”. The statement seemed to call for punishment now, trial later. He further smeared Kyle as linked to “White supremacist groups” and appeared to make a veiled threat.
Grosskruetz’s lawyer, Kimberly Motley, used the word “victims” and called for much greater bond, and the giving of Rittenhouse’s address, asks for electronic monitoring and for movement to be confined. She claims Rittenhouse was “wearing inappropriate attire”, “chugging” three beers over a 90 minute time period. None of the actions she describes, except the mailing address change, were forbidden in the original bond.
Judge Schroeder warned her about using the “victims” term.
When the lawyer for Kyle Rittenhouse, Mark Richards, was allowed to speak. He schooled the DA. His comments show:
- DA Thomas Binger knew from the beginning that Rittenhouse was not living at the Antioch address.
- The defense attempted to provide the DA with addresses under seal; the DA refused the restriction.
- Kyle has appeared for every court appearance.
Rittenhouse’ Lawyer, Mark Richards, ends with this statement:
“My client will appear. He looks forward to litigating these offenses in your honor’s courtroom. We have nothing to fear, the truth will set my client free.”
Then Grosskruetz’s lawyer, Kimberly Motley, brings up the race card, referring to a separate case in Kenosha.
Judge Schroeder gives a historical explanation. He sums it up with:
“I am not going to decide anything in this case or in any other, on the basis of the color of someone’s skin.”
The last eleven minutes of the hearing sum up everything. Judge Schroeder explains the law, facts, and procedure. DA Binger make the same arguments he made before. The judge then denies everything to the DA. Here is a transcript of the last 11 minutes of the hearing: It starts with Judge Schroeder, speaking of Kyle Rittenhouse:
Judge Schroeder:
“He was not put under a condition of living at a specific address. That could have been done. The District Attorney apparently was aware of what he now refers to as “flying the coop, was aware of that situation back then, and he didn’t ask for a condition for place of abode, and judge Keating didn’t order it, so there is no change of circumstances there. I do not believe it would be proper to issue a warrant. I do not think that it would be lawful. No matter what feelings anyone has, I took an oath to follow the constitution and uphold the laws, and that is what I am going to do.
It is sad this is getting at the level that it is. I can’t help that. I will tell you that the violation.., well, most of the people who are out on bond, we don’t know where they are. There are people who are out on bond, who are, they are business people. I have had cases where people are, they do international business. They fly all over the world while they are out on bond, and there is nothing prohibiting them in that bond. This is a border county. A significant portion of the people who are out on bond are living in Chicago or one of the other collar counties and are in and out available every day. We don’t have these restrictions on travel except when the judge, following the statute, puts an abode condition on. That was not done in this case. So he didn’t violate anything like that.
I don’t have the authority to issue the warrant the District Attorney is talking about.
I don’t agree with his analysis of what the circumstances, or I should say the procedure, for getting the bond changed. I get people in here and I do change their bond. Then I tell them to post it by a certain time, or they have to report to the jail.
If they don’t report, that’s when the warrant is issued. But to issue a warrant now, for a defendant who has appeared at every hearing, I would be breaking the law, and I am not going to do it.
I disagree with your statement that bail is a privilege. Bail is a right. In the Constitution.
We spoke to the bail that was set. He is in violation of a condition of updating his address.
Lawyer for Gaige Grosskruetz, Kimberly Motley: Are you talking to me?
Judge Schroeder: I am talking to everybody.
Actually, if he would have left a forwarding address, that probably would have been full compliance, with the bond order. We are interested where we can send notices to the defendant to appear for a hearing or whatever the case may be. He apparently didn’t leave a forwarding address, at least that is the evidence that was returned to the clerk. So he is in violation.
I can tell you, and I talked to the clerk yesterday, to confirm what I thought. There are a very, very, very high percentage of people who are out on bond who, when, because she routinely asks, after a hearing is done; Are you still living at the same address?
I would estimate the number of cases where the person says yes, is over 10%, maybe significantly more than that, where the people say, yes I have got a new address, and they haven’t notified the clerk. They are in violation.
I have never jailed one of those people. I have never heard of any other judge jailing those people. I have never seen a bond, a bail jumping violation based on one of those things.
I have never seen the District Attorney bring anything like that into the court. We amend their address on our record. And, they might get barked at a little bit for violating the court’s order. But that is the extent of what happens.
And they don’t get a raise in their bond, of a 10% raise in their bond. I can’t recall that ever happening. I am not sure if it has.
He didn’t, he fully is in violation for not updating his address. And that has to be addressed going forward.
The desire, that the bond, or the request for the defendent’s address be kept from public scrutiny is a legitimate one. What I am going to order is that the actual physical location of the defendant, and it will be his place of abode. If he is going to remove from there he will have to follow the bond conditions, and give us the exact physical location of the place of abode.
And that is to be given to the deputy clerk, working in this court, who will keep it privately, it will not to be part of the public record. It will be given to me, it will be held the same way. and it will to be given to whomever the sheriff designates as the commanding, the person who would be responsible for the full knowledge of the whereabouts of the defendant, and that is to be kept secret by the sheriff’s office. So, is that clear Mr. Richards, what is required.
Kyle Rittenhouse’ Attorney, Mark Richards: It is your honor and you and your clerk will have that by Five O’clock today, and I will have it to the sheriff’s department as soon as I am told who is designated to.
Judge Schroeder: OK.
DA Thomas Binger: Your honor, is that information to be shared with the our offices too?
Judge Schroeder: No. The District Attorney’s Office, and the answer is no.
DA: Why not?
Judge Schroeder: That has nothing to do with you or your office, I think the Sheriff, would be your right arm or left arm, whichever is preferred, in discharging anything that needs to be done. And they are not to share it with you unless you offer good reason. And it is not that I don’t trust you. I think that, again, the less of this, the safer everybody is. As I said.
You remember what went on six months ago here, I have two broken windows here, right here in this courtroom. The doors are still covered with plywood. A good share of the community is still boarded up after millions of dollars of property damage at this ghastly event occurred. So,
DA Thomas Binger: Because we would not be in any way contributing to that but our obligations to help monitor the defendant’s bonds conditions, without knowing were he is at, that becomes very difficult. If I am to file a charge of felony bail jumping, for example for the defendant violating his bond, and I don’t know where he is at that makes if pretty difficult…
Judge Schroeder: call the court, … call the court…
And if someone has criticized me for not doing so in the past, and I feel like I need to have this information, and certainly no on this zoom call needs to be reminded of the events of six months ago. We have the loved ones of two deceased and a victim who was shot in the arm by the defendant that night.
Judge Schroeder: Please do not use the term victim.
DA Thomas Binger: Mr… Mr. Grosscruetz was shot in the arm
Rittenhouse’ Lawyer, Mark Richards: Your honor, if my client, if Mr. Binger wants to…
If my client, If Mr. Binger wants my client to appear on what he is going to do next, which is issue a felony bail jumping, send it to my office. He will be in court the next day. This posturing is not serving any purpose at this point. The Court has ruled.
DA Thomas Binger: Your honor this is not posturing. This is standard procedure in all criminal cases. that everybody knows were the defendant is. This is highly unusual for this to be withheld under seal. The court has ruled this can be sealed from the public. But we are not the public. We are the prosecuting agency, we are the prosecutors on this case. And we have a very important right to know this information as the prosecuting agency in Kenosha County. And I have never heard of a situation where this information has been withheld from our office. The sheriff department, you are right, is a law enforcement agency, but we work with them and to withhold them from giving to us, the court from giving to us, to cut us out of that information is not appropriate here. We are, our office is headed up by the elected DA which is, the chief law enforcement officer in this community. This is murder case. And we are entitled to this information, your honor. We have never been denied this information in any case that I have ever heard of and I, if the court is aware of a case in this history where the you’ve not shared this information with us, I would appreciate you sharing that case with us, letting us know what case that was, because this is highly irregular. We have a right to know this. I would argue the public has a right to know it as well, I can understand the court ruling concealing it from the public. But our office has a responsibility to enforce the laws, enforce the bond here, to file bond, ah, bail jumping charges if there is a violation of that, and we cannot do our job without this information.
Judge Schroeder: The sheriff can keep on top of this, as to whether there is a violation. That’s where most of your information…
When I was district attorney, and I know it has been a long time, but, I did not have any investigative staff, except for one investigator, which i won’t go into. But the sheriff department was in charge of reporting bond violations and the like to us. And I think the same situation is good now.
The hearing is over. Thank you.
DA Thomas Binger: The defendant does not reside in Kenosha County, your honor! The sheriff can’t help …
Judge Schroeder: Thank you
Rittenhouse’ Lawyer, Mark Richards: Good afternoon.
Judge Schroeder: Good afternoon.
End of hearing.
If you want the best understanding of the case, the video contains many nuances that are not transmitted in a transcript. A transcript cannot catch facial expressions or inflections in the voices.
Analysis: This is part of a continuing attempt by the prosecution to make the trial into a Soviet-style political trial. There is no legitimate reason for the DA office to be aware of the actual location of Kyle Rittenhouse, given the extra-legal animosity shown to Rittenhouse by the DA office, their political allies, and their continuing attempts to smear him. The judge made it clear if an actual legal issue occurs, the DA need only call the court.
Having the actual location would be immensely valuable to a politically motivated DA. It could be leaked to their allies in Black Lives Matter and to Antifa. The “protestors” could apply extra-legal pressure to Rittenhouse, his family, and his attorneys, as tends to be done in totalitarian regimes. That would make the defense immensely more difficult. The press coverage of such events would play into the public smearing of Rittenhouse.
The “protestors” could stage violent demonstrations, in an attempt to make Rittenhouse’ trial into a repeat of the trial of the officers involved in the Rodney King incident, where some jurors later said, they believed the officers to be not guilty, but found them guilty to avoid another riot.
Judge Schroeder was having none of it. He stopped the political prosecution in this hearing and pointed out the falsehoods and political interpretation of law put forward by the DA.
Judge Schroeder was appointed by a Democrat governor in 1984. He graduated from law school in 1970. He has been a judge in Kenosha for 34 years. He appears to be the man for the job.
About Dean Weingarten:
Dean Weingarten has been a peace officer, a military officer, was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and was first certified to teach firearms safety in 1973. He taught the Arizona concealed carry course for fifteen years until the goal of Constitutional Carry was attained. He has degrees in meteorology and mining engineering, and retired from the Department of Defense after a 30 year career in Army Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation.
What is being witnessed is a DA who knows his case is weak and will most likely loose. Therefore he is trying to manipulate every possible facet of the pretrial in order to keep his face a cause in the limelight and by doing so get a conviction in the court of public opinion before the actual trial. Fortunately Schroeder isn’t allowing him to play the game the way he wants to. So he throws hissy fits like any spoiled brat who see his world implode around him.
Yes, he hopes Kyle will be found and murdered.
Kyle did not take lives that night, those men FORFEITED their lives by their own violent actions.
Good judge.
Bad persecutor.
There are opposing differences between a self defense shooting, and
attempted murder. Gaige Grosskruetz, was attempting to murder Rittenhouse.
Rittenhouse reflexively self defended, separating Grosskruetz from his
lover. Has Gaige Grosskruetz been charged with attempted murder ?
No! I don’t think Grosskruetz has “suffered enough already”.
He should be charged.
Gaige got what he went looking for when he decided to arm up and start rioting. Sorry, bandwagoner, you lose.
CS,
You might want to go back and reread what Ram said. I think you misunderstood him.
I am responsible for what I wrote, not for what you understand.
GG was also a felon right? He should not have had any firearm on him.
i like this judge’s verbiage, no victims until decision is rendered. his is a court of law, not public opinion, it doesn’t seem like he will be swayed by threat of violence. at 45:12 the father of the deceased attacker shot the judge the bird because the judge didn’t do what he wanted. the judge should hold him in contempt of court, because if he did that in actual court he probably would have done so. the butthurt da also was crying at the end when he didn’t get his way. i’m sure that the defendants location would somehow get… Read more »
The fact of the matter is that the 3 convicted felons of which are deceased and 1. Still wasting air are members of “The Tribe.” And, the “Tribe” wants Rittenhouse’s head on the proverbial Silver Platter!
The prosecution would leak the whereabouts of the defendant to the minions of Black Lives Matter and the Communists in ANTIFA. The6 would most likely kill Rittenhouse! The Judge knows that!
Really? All THREE where from “the Tribe”? Isn’t that a coincidence!
The civil rights lawsuit filed after Rittenhouse is acquitted on all counts will be worth watching. Prosecutorial misconduct.
The DA should be slapped across his face with a contempt of court charge and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Sad that the Government will waist our money, just to make a point.
This is a self defense shooting plain and simple.
Exactly, as for GG who lost most of the use of his arm, Kyle could have easily taken chest shots and it would be DRT. Point a handgun at a citizen you should expect to get lead in your body.
Most LEOs would have kept shooting – especially since GG was still holding a firearm after he was shot in the arm.
Kyle showed remarkable restraint.
Maybe this young man will get a fair trial. I hope so.
Judge who not only understands the law(s) but can explain it using plain English. ADA should be removed from the case.
The DA should be removed from office for bringing charges to begin with…
In so many ways, this is Zimmerman 2.0.
Well written….. kudos
RoyD; No Booze since 1989, No Smokes since 1996, but I’m not giving up women, if I do please put me out of my misery!!!!!!!
Binger should be disbarred.
Anyone else catch Anthony Huber’s father (Yellow T-shirt – Black Mask – Middle Right Box) give Judge Schroeder the finger?
Sushihunter,
I wonder if the Judge is aware of it. Sounds like Contempt of Court to me.
In the father’s defense….. he wasn’t allowed to bring his skateboard with him, or get close to his victim, errr the judge (like his tough-guy son….. RIP)
RIP in this case means requiescat in perditio.
“Chugging down three beers in a 90 minute period.” Wow, that’s some real lack of remorse for defending himself.
I believe the technical term is “self medicating”.
Never considered myself a heavy drinker, but at that age I used a quart cup at campus keggers. Was known to have four over a shorter time period. Sounds like Kyle is trying to go on with his life and DA’s isengaged in baseless smearing.
Just die needs to be careful commenting about riot damages in Kenosha, particularly where he is personally impacted. Could open the door for appeal based on judges bias. Doubt any of us want that.
I haven’t had a drop of alcohol since Dec 3, 1977.
Quitter!
Congrats
Motley was really reaching to criticize someone who was released from jail for having three beers over an hour and a half at a bar. She kept referring to his lack of remorse (like Kyle was guilty and she had moved on to sentencing) and the judge just ignored her. She and Binger had a hard time refraining from calling the perpetrators “victims.” The judge wasn’t having it. The judge did seem to bring up the damage to the courthouse in an odd “how dare they” way. He should have just referenced death threats against Kyle – that was the… Read more »
Wouldn’t that address ideally be the address of his lawyer’s firm.
I listened to the meeting (if you have time, it’s kind of interesting), I got the impression the mailing address of the person out on bail has to be provided. There was no restriction on his bond agreement that prohibited him from going (or staying) anywhere he wanted.
I don’t know how these things work – the law firm address makes sense to me, but no one brought that up. At one point, Kyle’s lawyer got frustrated with all the grandstanding and said if you want Kyle, contact me and I’ll have him available right away.
It seems only logical.
Maybe Warlock11 could chime in – he might have more personal experience with these matters.
LOL!
Just a guess.
DA (Binger?) showed his hypocrisy in talking about how Kyle had not demonstrated threats or need for a safe house – then turning around and commenting how Kyles family left the new tenants at risk. If Kyle were not at risk, how would they have put anyone else at risk. He is grasping at straws to get judge to make any statements that can be taken out of context and used to show bias – if not legally, then in court of “public” opinion (meaning among leftist rabble rousers). This is one of those cases where it is not enough… Read more »
I applaud Kyle’s restraint! I would have probably done 90 beers in a 3 minute period!
Slow drinker by any measure.
I thought he showed restraint in his drinking, just like he did with his shooting.
The only victim here is Rittenhouse, the others were his attackers and there were many. They need to get this trial started and show that Rittenhouse was running away from the mob of attackers and he acted in self defense each time. All of the video of the attackers pursuing Rittenhouse should be shown to the jury of the incident would exonerate Rittenhouse.
The frightening thing is that this trial is NOT taking place in Venezuela, Cuba, Hong Kong, North Korea, or Somalia, but in the United States of America. I do hope this wretch of a persecutor (no typo) ends up letting his hatred rule the rest of him, and gets slapped heavily for it. If any judge ever could, this one is he. WHen its all over I hope Kyle can take some of the refunded bail moneyand launch a serious lawsuit to repay this sick DA for his abuse of rights, etc. Could probably find some out and out false… Read more »
Hubert’s dad (dude in yellow) flipped the judge the bird at like 45:00ish in the video.
it’s ok for the judge to be prejudiced by the broken window and boarded up doors? when you staunch believers of a particular set of values put their opinions out as facts does that serve the public interest? should this article be labeled an op-ed?
The article is an opinion.
You stated the judge is prejudiced – that is an opinion.
You are a staunch believer of a particular set of values.
the article is presented as news not an “op-ed”, therefor its should be based on facts. I specifically asked if it should be labeled as such.
noooo…I asked a question that you interpreted as a statement.
as is every human. my values allow for others to be who or what they want to be. I believe I am no better than anyone else. so my values are better than most…lol (I don’t really believe that, just seemed appropriate).
Your question included a statement:
“it’s ok for the judge to be prejudiced by the broken window and boarded up doors?”
The statement was that the judge was prejudiced.
The question was whether that was ok.
Regarding news vs op-ed, yes the tab says “gun rights news,” but I believe we all understand these articles are opinion pieces on the news. Dean doesn’t write for Reuters, he’s writing for AmmoLand.
i think you put the inflection on the wrong word(s), and interpreted my question the way you wanted to see it. my opinions matter to me, the question was open for discussion, not about the question is indeed a question itself but the content the question poses.
Your written words contained no inflection, you made a statement and asked a question. It’s a matter of grammar, not your feelings. Perhaps this would have better conveyed what you subsequently expressed as your point: “Was it ok for the judge to mention the issue regarding the broken window and broken-up doors? His comments could be interpreted in different ways, among them: He was prejudiced against the people who were rioting (including the people Kyle shot); He was admonishing the prosecuting attorney for bringing up the specter of future protests as somehow relevant to the issue of bond; or It… Read more »
ask george floyd how important the millions of dollars of damage to buildings are.
so now that you know it was a question how about you address the question and not deflect by questioning my grammar. that’s a typical ploy used by many to avoid the issue. arguing for the sake of arguing is silly.
I stated clearly that you wrote a question that contained a statement. That is a fact.
I also offered an example of how you might have expressed the point you subsequently explained.
…and you and i both know when presented with statements by others that are inline with ones beliefs a lot of people will take it as fact. 01/06/2021 prime example!
Dean did a good recap of the video (if you haven’t watched it, you should) and then provided his analysis (and labeled that section of the article “Analysis”).
You are really reaching on this one.
i read it, not at home i’m semi-working today. just goes to show how reading vs verbiage matters. still without seeing it i think his statement goes against what he said. if color isn’t relevant why is the damage?
Dean’s write-up summarized the video. I know it’s kind of long, but when you have a chance you really should watch the entire video.
After summarizing the video, he provided his analysis and labeled it as such.
As I wrote in an earlier comment on this article, I don’t think the judge should have raised the point about the damage – he should have just referenced the threats against Kyle.
The fact that he mentioned the damage does not mean he is prejudiced in favor of Kyle.
. i’ve been in front of judges before and some of them them are on a power trip, and allow their personal “feelings” to skew their rulings. it’s really not clear if he is pro or against the kid, he may just be applying the law as he interprets it. i am in agreement with you on the need to express his views on the damage. there are others that may view his statement differently as they will this op-ed as news.
I’ve never been in front of a judge before, but based on videos of some court proceedings, I agree that some judges are on power trips. Sometimes their hurt feelings (from perceived disrespect) seem to be more important to them than a victim who had a gun stuck in their face while being robbed. The fact that he does not appear to be pro or against Kyle is a good sign. The damage and intimidation done in Kenosha by the mostly violent rioters was huge. My take is that the judge didn’t want to see a repeat by people who… Read more »
oh, absolutely!!! crap like that further disparages the cause. now let me ask you a question; does systemic racism exist?
Within law enforcement across the United States, or within the race industry fomented by people like Al Sharpton?
within the USA as a whole, this goes back to my earlier references to the past.
Within the USA, the highest rate of broadly racist comments I have seen are from people who identify as Blacks.
not your experiences, in general. and racism involves more than speech. do you think “minorities” have equal access to the pursuit of happiness (not personally, but in a broad sense).
I believe minorities have more than equal access to the pursuit of happiness due to affirmative action in large companies and government, preferential treatment in college grants, preferential treatment in college admission, etc., etc. We have discussed this before. If you want to make change, it might be better to focus on things that I believe we agree on: People in power want the country divided in many ways (race, gender, blue collar/white collar, north/south, wealthy/not wealthy, young/elderly, gay/straight, urban/suburban/rural, etc.) There are acts of abuse by LE for which individual LEOs are not held accountable and that encourages more… Read more »
I posted this elsewhere but I know you will find it of interest:
WATCH: Woman Gets Late-Night Police Visit For Anti-Mask Facebook Posts – National File
Thanks – I had seen it and posted a response in the other thread.
I’m fairly certain you know where I’m coming from, but for any people who may think I’m anti-LEO or anti-Military:
I support all good government employees.
It’s also obvious what is headed our way.
talking about stuff we agree on is easy, its the stuff where we differ that needs to be addressed, otherwise its just an echo chamber.
so lets get an answer, yes or no. does systemic racism exist in the USA? can you walk into a “minority” area sans a firearm and feel safe?
If people focus on things they agree on and work to change them, there is likely to be more change. Addressing individual acts of abuse by LEOs is one of those things. Yes, systemic racism is manifested in affirmative action and other such programs that are imposed in a systemic manner. There is nothing more systemic than law. Now you are asking me a personal question about me and what I would do. I’ve spent a significant amount of time in Chicago and part of that was in the south side of Chicago. If I was alone in a coffee… Read more »
I would disagree, culture is far more systemic than law. yes we need to address rouge leo’s, one of the problems is the system/culture has evolved to have racism/fear baked in. I get your answer and its a reasonable one, but too sterile to really get to my point. maybe there was something blocking your radiator or you were dragging something and the young man was just trying to alert you of that (yeah, unlikely but still). the thing is the way you and he interacted would have been based on stereotypes. I think you believe people like Jackson and… Read more »
15,000% higher isn’t a stereotype, it’s a horrific fact. People who ignore it, do so at their own peril.
I had this discussion with a tenant, their pov was the exact opposite. he would pull stats that overall said the likelihood of being involved in a crime was relatively low. me, I carry everyday!
Do you own a property in the Englewood or Garfield Park neighborhoods of Chicago? The rate of murder and non-negligent homicide in those two neighborhoods is over 150 times that of many other areas of the United States. That isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact. For anyone struggling with the conversion of “over 150 times” to “15,000% higher,” here you go: 1.15 times the other rate = 15% higher ((1.15-1.0)/1.0) 2.5 times the other rate = 150% higher ((2.5-1.0)/1.0) 16 times the other rate = 1,500% higher ((16-1)/1) 151 times the other rate = 15,000% higher ((151-1)/1) Anyone who refuses… Read more »
I’ve been there a few times, but a friend told me to stay on the east side and north. Chicago is an anomaly but other places are trying to catch up. that’s how those sponges soaked up how to “survive”. sad isn’t a definitive enough word!
Then your tenant may have been correct, because he was pulling data related to a different area than the neighborhoods I was referencing.
response on hold
You normally have an appreciation for humor – I thought the comment about the socialist practice of government-imposed price controls (in the form of rent control) might have elicited a response.
it actually did…I was just more drawn to the issue because a lot of people can’t have the conversation at all without it spiraling into the abyss. using your logic, I don’t think college admissions, jobs in the corporate world make up enough of a percentage of the population to think that it makes the playing field a level one. and if the practice at one point was to exclude a particular segment from those positions, what percentage of those organizations will it take to match the population at-large? asked you this before but I don’t think you answered; why… Read more »
Are you talking about the number of high-level executive positions where the primary function of the job has to do with quantitative analysis, sorting through complicated issues, and being able to explain those issues to various groups in writing? Do you think less than 13% of those positions are occupied by Blacks because of racism?
I believe I did answer the question before about why the programs are needed. My response is that they are not needed.
wuuuuuh! … I think you have just proven my point. do you recall me saying take ten babies from the poorest most “micro-cultured” areas and give them access to higher education and less stressful lives, and they would excel (% wise) the same as any other portion of the population? back when I said that, you actually said that was also your point as to why those areas don’t excel. do you think “minorities” can’t somehow arrive at those same conclusions as the current ceo’s if given the same opportunities while growing up? would you feel safe in a “minority… Read more »
I remember our discussion about taking black babies from a dysfunctional micro culture (that includes bad parents) and putting them into a normal culture (that includes good parents) and they would excel at the same rate as white babies. I believe the reason less than 13% of the positions I described are occupied by Blacks is due to the high percentage of Blacks that grow up in dysfunctional micro-cultures. I believe that dysfunctional micro-cultures can only be changed by the people in those micro-cultures. I believe certain people, who are respected by the people in those neighborhoods, could help lead… Read more »
have you ever noticed that I rarely say “black” “white” or name any other nationality race creed or color (good god man that’s “PC” on steroids). its not a cultural thing because the vast majority of people just want to live in peace. I believe people are people, some good some stupid and so on. if someone were to read your prior post, could they glean from that, that you believe its partially genetic? what about prior to this person with all the mansions and jet setting? are there any successful minorities today (that don’t play sports)? if so how… Read more »
No reasonable person who read my posts would conclude I believe the difference in percentages was due to genetics. When you do things like you are now doing (creating a straw man argument), it starts winding down the conversation.
People with bad parents are less likely to earn average or above incomes.
I actually meant to say that, because it was part of our last conversation on that particular subject. I hope you didn’t think that’s what I was trying to infer. my bad for omitting the disclaimer! I never thought of you that way for sure. people can break out of their family cycles. kid that used to work with me had a drunk for a father, a loving mother but she also liked to party. this kid is the best father figure I know and his kids are lucky he’s their dad. people are blank slates for the most part… Read more »
No problem.
Of course people can break out of their family cycles. It’s just less likely a person will do well if they have bad parents and grow up in a dysfunction micro-culture. Bad behaviors are deemed normal and encouraged and good behaviors are mocked and punished. There are a lot of dysfunctional micro-cultures that are predominantly white people.
the lines of division could be drawn differently for sure.
Are you talking about the number of high-level executive positions where the primary function of the job has to do with quantitative analysis, sorting through complicated issues, and being able to explain those issues to various groups in writing? Do you think less than 13% of those positions are occupied by Blacks because of racism.
i’ve been thinking about this comment and really don’t understand what your intent was in asking if these positions aren’t filled because of racism. let me ask you, why aren’t 13% of those positions filled with minoritized people?
Because a larger % of white people make the thousands of decisions during their lives that result in being in those jobs.
A dysfunctional micro-culture does not encourage people to make those decisions.
so all minoritized people are what?
Please re-state your question.
“Because a larger % of white people make the thousands of decisions during their lives that result in being in those jobs.”
are any minoritized people capable of making these “decisions”? if so why? if not why?
I explained that in the part of my comment that you did not quote.
Of course the same percentage of Blacks are capable of making those decisions as Whites.
A dysfunctional micro-culture does not encourage people to make those decisions.
then, why aren’t more minoritized people in those positions?
the tiny “micro-culture” do not represent the majority of the minoritized community.
that’s akin to sayin everyone in a minoritized community is a criminal.
Less than 13% of those positions are held by Blacks, because, even though a very large percentage (the same as Whites) of Blacks are capable of making those decisions, they don’t make those decisions.
A larger percentage of Blacks live in dysfunctional micro-cultures than the percentage of Whites.
Stating the truth is nothing “akin to sayin everyone in a minoritized community is a criminal.”
I’m not Anderson Cooper and I’m not going to placate you by repeating the lie that the reason Blacks don’t hold 13% of those positions is because of racism.
even though a very large percentage (the same as Whites) of Blacks are capable of making those decisions, they don’t make those decisions.
white privilege, does it exist? has history ever played a part in why you believe certain segments can’t make “those decisions”? are people that make those decisions educated on how to do so or is it just cumulative
life experiences?
don’t need you to ever placate anything for me!
Black privilege exists. Whites had to not only make thousands of good decisions throughout their lives to get those positions, many had to do so while they worked their asses of during high school and college to pay for college while many Blacks got a free ride merely because of their skin color. We have discussed before how the laws and policies of systemic racism worked in favor of Blacks: Preferential policies for college admission Preferential policies for hiring in government and fortune 500 companies Preferential policies for retention in government and fortune 500 companies Preferential policies for promotion in… Read more »
going to be brutally frank here, THATS STUPID!!! are minoritized people that get into colleges or universities unqualified? how much history of this country are you aware of particularly following the civil war? all of your bullet points clearly are based on your ignorance of the people that live in those minoritized communities. again its akin to saying all of the people in those communities are criminals. ever heard of black wall street? when was the first black senator elected to congress? go ahead google it because you obviously don’t know the history of this country in any factual way.… Read more »
I’ll be brutally frank as well then – quit whining and fix your culture.
what culture am I a part of? you’re making a stupid assumption, just like your post about those “micro cultures” you know nothing about.
answer a question that’s really simple, first black senator, when?
Always history – never accountability.
Don’t tell me what I have lived and seen with my own eyes.
how about accountability for the history that got ALL of us here! what are you ashamed of.
are “blacks” that get into colleges unqualified?
Do you not understand preference? It means that a black person with the same qualifications as a white person receives preferential consideration.
Do you want my house?
and that preferential consideration is based on HISTORY.
why would I want your house, do you want to sell it to me so I can flip it and make more money, if we can work out a good deal for me, maybe, let’s talk!
when was the first black senator elected to congress?
I didn’t say Blacks “can’t” make those decisions – I said a smaller percentage of them “don’t” make those decisions.
why (in your opinion)?
How many times does it have to be said?
The culture (that Blacks created) encourages them not to make those decisions.
people are poor people are rich people are stupid (and say really stupid thing they know nothing about) and people are smart people are fat people are skinny. you obviously don’t know the history of YOUR country. you choose not to answer the simplest questions that negate your “its on them” nonsense, ITS ON US AS IN ALL OF US TO MAKE THINGS BETTER!!!
Things will never get better as long as people embrace the victim mentality.
You insist I know nothing about the things I have written and that I must have been taught those things.
What is it you want wil? You have indicated before that the decades of institutionalized racism against Whites (by all the laws and policies I have listed) is not nearly enough. What is it that you want?
how about a more just society where these conversations aren’t necessary? is that too much?
when was the first black senator elected to congress? please google it cause if you know already you clearly choose to hide your ignorance.
wil, you turned this conversation negative. How, specifically, do you believe a more just society could be created? Why was I penalized for what black and white people did to other black people a long time ago? After being penalized, now I am being told I have white privilege. The direction being pushed is making things far, far worse. I haven’t responded to your repeated attempts to go back in history because it doesn’t matter. We already had a conversation about history. What difference does it make that the first black senator (a republican) took office in 1870? Do you… Read more »
by people losing their fear of the “scary incapable of making decisions, that have too many kids, that grow up in loveless micro-cultures people” that are no better or worse than YOU or ME! I don’t think you understand what white privilege is, to YOU it’s just normal everyday, to some it getting a knee to the neck til death. that’s history at this point but does it matter. next time there is a tornado or a hurricane tell the people outside to hold themselves down so you don’t blow away. aka fix it from within. so now you educated… Read more »
Why do you keep saying things like “can’t” and “incapable?” I said exactly the opposite.
What do you want (specifically)?
I suggested once that if people (of all races) work together on the issue of abuse by LEOs, there would be a higher probability of success. You said those discussions would result in an echo chamber. Why not work with a broad effort to hold those individual LEOs accountable? What are your thoughts on the killing of Daniel Shaver? Did his life matter?
yup since LEO’s kill people that’s the WHOLE problem.
you really have no clue about the way people are treated in this country. its so much bigger.
“lessons from the past may not always ward off doom, but they can provide insights into the PRESENT and even the future”
that’s not me talking its a quote from the net.
if your pipes froze and burst one winter when you went on vacation, would you leave the water on the next time you left? HISTORY! YOU CHOOSE TO IGORE IT YOUR PIPES WILL FREEZE AGAIN!
wil, you have made numerous comments about my ignorance and you refuse to say what it is, specifically, that you want.
I don’t see much reason to continue.
and you have made several comments based on ignorance, but you continue to choose to remain ignorant!
if your pipes froze would you learn from it? is that history?
expecting crickets at this point, guessing you feel cornered and want to escape. cause that’s a pretty simple question.
You don’t like data, remember?
Do you want to be paid reparations?
D.A.T.A. the character from Star Trek next generations?
data is why I offer 60% for your house, use data everyday, its gotta be factually based and not speculative though.
what culture am I a part of?
would you leave the second time and leave the water on? *this crushes your history pov and you choose not to answer because you know it.
I should have written “the” not “your” when referencing the culture that needs to be fixed before any meaningful improvement can be made.
Now, do you want non-Blacks to pay reparations to Blacks?
I want a more just society. if that means colleges are mandated to accept people that have previously been excluded from higher learning, so be it.
would you leave the house again and let the pipes freeze or would you learn from the past and take steps to prevent it?
We have a difference of opinion, to the extent you have even provided an opinion.
You have attributed my opinion to ignorance and being taught stereotypes. My opinion is based on data and what I have observed during my life.
No, I don’t believe the people living in dysfunctional micro-cultures should let their pipes freeze yet again. They should strive to break the multi-generational pattern of dysfunctional behaviors. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen because the truth is not pleasant and people keep making excuses and blaming it on history.
were those “micro-cultures” up until the 60’s always like that? history matters, in your scenario the heat has been turned off and the valves are welded open.
I think you would enjoy having this conversation with Anderson Cooper more than with me. He would reassure you that white people like him, and his ancestors, are the reason for the problems that Blacks experience today. You could call him all sorts of names and he would bow down to you in subjugation. You could make vague comments about how all the affirmative action policies/laws to date are woefully insufficient and when he asks you what should be done, you could say keeping just one of those policies (preferential college admission) is sufficient. He wouldn’t point out that is… Read more »
a more just verdant society, where all boats rise with the tide and not just a few.
some people can’t win when some prosper it gets burned to the ground. when elections result in people getting elected there is a poll tax, when college is seen as a path forward some need to be excluded.
it would be great if this conversation didn’t exist and I could ask you your opinion on this primary arms 1-8×24 lpvo I’m avoiding pulling the trigger on.
Is verdant the word you meant to use?
Do you want equal outcomes, not equal opportunities?
I don’t understand your statement:
“when elections result in people getting elected there is a poll tax”
What, specifically, do you want?
ver·dant
/ˈvərdnt/
adjective
equal opportunities. I’ve told you in the past giving anyone capable of getting it themselves anything is a bad idea and helps no one.
goes back to the first black senator elected to congress. the current system is designed to keep some people in their “red lined” places. this is history!
Like I said, we have a difference of opinion.
You keep referring to the design of the system and history.
I believe laws/policies have already favored Blacks and that a significant improvement is dependent on individuals making different decisions.
laws and policies are a result of what? sympathetic lawmakers…thats not it for sure.
most people will not think a policy “outside the norm” is warranted unless it affects them. when have politicians ever felt empathy enough to put those policies in place. did the civil rights actions from the 60’s make it all go away? racism is historically baked into this country. what’s the downside of immigrants coming here to work other than the browning of America?
Laws and policies are not typically the result of a need.
What, specifically, do you want?
that’s a stretch to say…and even more to believe. granted todays in climate laws are made for who knows. you have a senator elected in 1870ish, in comes a poll tax. you have a group of people thriving, their town gets burned down. what’s the harm in admitting racism is real? I want equal opportunity for everyone willing to take advantage of it. there will always be those that don’t want to participate, across the board they will be all shapes sizes and colors. I didn’t make things this way but I know its wrong! I grew up with white,… Read more »
Most laws have nothing to do with a need.
What, specifically, do you want?
Affirmative action and equal opportunity are mutually exclusive. You have to choose one.
those are your choices…I want opportunity from the start for everyone. then your affirmative action would go away in one generation. I don’t have an issue with affirmative action it should start at elementary school.
have heard of redlining? was that a fact historically? what’s the basis for the average persons wealth? is it real estate?
You want institutional, systemic racial discrimination, enforced by the authority of law, to continue. That makes the problem bigger, not smaller.
Running to history to evade acknowledging the consequences decisions have for the decision maker and the decision maker’s children enables the dysfunction.
YES…if thats what it takes to right 400+ yrs of keeping one segment of the populous down. would you be against providing an education to kids at an early age equal to any other kid in the suburbs? if that were to occur how long do you think it would take to change the “micro-culture”, one generation? two? it’s been over 50yrs and things are moving backward. would all this “discrimination” against the whites go away? if colleges were all white and more people applied that the student body would allow are the people that get turned away being discriminated… Read more »
Always history and not personal accountability. More money is spent per child on the south and west sides of Chicago than in many of the suburbs. We’ve covered this ground before – the biggest obstacle to learning in those urban neighborhoods is the culture. The culture of single parent households, parents who do not value education, parents who do not instill discipline in their children, students who are disruptive, and vandalism. Things are going backward because so many people are making excuses instead of fixing the problem (the decisions people make that result in a dysfunctional micro-culture). Black applicants are… Read more »
“they” are ALL criminals and don’t possess the mental fortitude to get ahead anyway! so what’s the point! aww…would that white person being denied schooling be anything like a black person being denied civil liberties in the most basis sense? if anyone is whining today it wasn’t me! how many women white or otherwise where in those classes? got any statistics on that? NASA just sent up a rocket named for a mathematician did you know that she was black? but thinking skills aren’t possessed by any race besides white? do I need to google famous black scientist for you?… Read more »
There was a large percentage of women in those classes. There was also a large percentage of women in the jobs for which those classes prepared people. Now you resort to strawman arguments again. Earlier you tried to attribute the words “can’t” and “incapable” to me when I said exactly the opposite. Now you are claiming I believe only Whites can think. You readily agreed that less than 13% of the people in the jobs I described were Black. I provided an explanation as to why the percentage was less than 13% – not that it’s zero. Of course there… Read more »
all baby makers and criminals. my schooling experience was different, some failed some excelled. I don’t know when you went but im guessing you are a gen ahead of me cause you are retired (maybe you retired early, but thats speculation at best)
Again with the strawman: “all baby makers and criminals.”
from my point of view its called being facetious!
have you ever done the math per child? now consider how many kids per class pay for the teacher, school nurse, janitors principals infrastructure etc. how many kids left after you divy it up? where does the money go, its not spent on educating the kids for sure!
I’m hesitant to bring up numbers because I know you don’t care about them.
Repair of vandalism, security, etc.
self employed since I was 26, made plenty money and now im semi-retired at 50, 3 yrs ago. so I guess you’re right, numbers mean nothing to me, i just guessed along the way. or I crushed it and worked the numbers like a champ, who knows!
ill buy your house if you want to sell but it will be about 60% of its market value…sure hope I can cypher that one!
You told me you don’t care about numbers. That was when the numbers did not support your contention.
hmm…your’e going to have to prove that one, I def don’t recall wording anything like that. I may have said you can manipulate the numbers however you wish to support any particular argument.
do the math first…chicago is bigger than my city and our school budget is $3.4BN, yours has to be higher, if you pay taxes there im sure it will anger you when you find out the amount of money not spent on the kids. btw “etc”…cover all incidentals
one thing you don’t consider in your approach is the Irish Chinese and other non-black people that were persecuted/oppressed when they arrived here is they had their culture to fall back on whereas black peoples culture was stripped away.
Maybe Joe will step down and give the job to Kamala as atonement.
did your grandson tell you to say that? sounded a lil childish
What is childish is to constantly claim racism instead of considering other causes of problems.
whew! it’s the silly one. I apologize to JSNMGC for the second of “I wanna punch you in the mouth” I just experienced. you, I could care less!
You wanted to punch me in the mouth? That sounds like low impulse control. Responding to a difference of opinion with violence is one of the dysfunctional behaviors that is causing problems.
lol…no, I wouldn’t expect given the particularly adversarial nature of todays conversation you to say something like that. it was shocking until I saw the actual source.
forgot to answer the house question although I thought I already did. I would only be willing to offer you 60% of its current value, if you’re still interested lemme know!
Timing issue with the writing of comments.
The point is: What do you want, specifically?
Dee wants reparations for what black and white people did to some black people a long time ago.
You replied to my comment some time ago about “putting out fire with gasoline,” that that an explosion is the best way to put out an oil rig fire.
Do you want reparations? Do you want white people to sell their houses and give you money, like Dee?
what culture am I a part of? you choose to keep yourself ignorant of that facts. don’t make assumptions to make your argument work. you wanna sell me your house? I offer 60% of its value, nothing personal just business. who is this “dee” you keep referencing and why do you associate them with me? when you make assumptions you have to know that there is a possibility that you are wrong. a lot of your arguments are not based on facts only your assumptions, regardless of if you’ve seen it with your own eyes and speculated as to why.… Read more »
Dee was the one who was cheering you on, surely you remember.
Do you want to be paid reparations?
what culture am I a part of? why chant people just have opinions even if they differ from yours?
are you wanting to sell me your house? does that fit your position?
You can have all the opinions you want, even if they are inconsistent with facts.
Do you want to be paid reparations?
what? do you feel silly and have to drive the point into the ground? please tell me, how have you characterized me in your head because I don’t agree with your political views?
please tell me, what culture am I part of?
do I think these corporations that are still around and directly benefitted from slavery need to step up and make it right, yes! direct payments? no. how many big screen tv’s can any one family have…lol (based on the payments given at the start of the pandemic not race). its impossible to hold yourself down in a hurricane. outside help is required.
would you learn from the past or let your pipes freeze again?
I am middle aged white male. In all ,my life I’ve been heavily verbally abused and threatened by three police officers, all of them white, each incident mostly of the making of the ossifer in question. In one case the “contacting” officer called in two more carloads of white coppers, and the discussion I overheard between them (it was cold, winter, night, but I’d left my driveris side windoe DOWN and could easily hear their remarks as the head cop stalled things. They were deliberatly planning HOW to cause me to “go off on them” so they could justify “working… Read more »
I don’t believe there is systemic racism in LE in the USA. I believe a certain percent of LEOs are bad (and that percent includes all the ones who don’t actively commit the abuse, but just stand there and watch). They are bad because they believe the chance of suffering any repercussion is slight. Some treat Blacks worse than Whites, some overlook crimes committed by Blacks (out of fear of being called a racist) but won’t overlook the same crimes committed by Whites. Some don’t like wealthy people because they are envious. Some abuse people who are not wealthy because… Read more »
the colour of one’s outer wrapping is not a factor of choice, nor can any action on the part of one so wrapped change the colour of that packaging. On the other hand, the damage to the building the judge pointed out is the direct result of CHOICES made by individuals who were under NO OBLIGATION to perform those actions. The judge rightly pointed out the FACT that the damage now visible is the result of actions of individuals. It is also a clear indication that at least some people in that area have in the past taken up violence… Read more »
outer wrapping…lol…I like that! can the families of victims of a crime speak out in court? they were directly affected by whatever perpetrator that committed the crime. but why can’t they speak at trial?
Your statement itself is prejudiced. You have no evidence that the judge is prejudiced. Going by the rule of law is not prejudiced. Seeing the defendant as innocent until proven guilty is the Constitution, and the Constitution is something that you Marxists hate because then you cannot control the world like you want to.
well thank you for calling me something i would never agree to. personally i think when someone is given anything it’s not met with the same respect as if they had to earn it. so no not a marxist. why did you choose to apply your beliefs to me when you know nothing about me?
First, I don’t believe that the judge was showing any prejudice when considering the broken windows and boarded up doors. What he was concerned with was in not allowing information not needed to be released to the general public, to be shared with more people than necessary, to avoid the possible rioting and looting as was seen when this case was happening. The DA had already shown that he wanted to make political hay out of this, and the judge was not going to allow that to happen, in regards to the place where Kyle R. was staying. As for… Read more »
the point of any damage to the building did not need to be made about anything concerning the trial or during. is there a difference between news and propaganda? you are correct in that the nyt or wapo is not forced to discern between news and opinion, they do offer op-ed’s and they are labeled as such. ammoland could print lies if they so chose to do so. if one of those lies caused harm to anyone they would also be liable and could be sued for libel and if proven that the published material was a lie, they would… Read more »