ATF Released New Proposed Pistol Brace Rules

SIG SAUER Pistol Stabilizing Brace
SIG SAUER Pistol Stabilizing Brace

WASHINGTON D.C.-(Ammoland.com)- On Monday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) released its proposed rule on pistol braces.

It starts by saying that any brace that the manufacturer intends to be fired from the shoulder will be considered a short-barreled rifle (SBR) and subjected to the National Firearms Act (NFA). The document further creates a points system that would allow the ATF to make most pistol braces SBR.

The maximum length of a pistol would be 26 inches. That would make any AR15 style pistol with a barrel over seven inches an SBR regardless of any other determination features.  The measurements of a seven-inch AR pistol from the rear of the buffer tube to the front of the gun are 25 inches.

The document reads:

“Given the public interest surrounding these issues, ATF is proposing to amend the definition of ‘rifle’ in 27 CFR 478.11 and 479.11, respectively, by adding a sentence at the end of each definition. The new sentence would clarify that the term ‘rifle’ includes any weapon with a rifled barrel and equipped with an attached ‘stabilizing brace’ that has objective design features and characteristics that indicate that the firearm is designed to be fired from the shoulder, as indicated on ATF Worksheet 4999.”

  • 1 point: Minor Indicator (the weapon could be fired from the shoulder)
  • 2 points: Moderate Indicator (the weapon may be designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder)
  • 3 points: Strong Indicator (the weapon is likely designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder)
  • 4 points: Decisive Indicator (the weapon is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder

The ATF would consider any gun with a score of four or more points an SBR.  Firearms over 13 ½ inches would automatically be an SBR.  If a pistol has a standard buffer tube, then the firearm would be assigned two points. The ATF would consider any gun that is over 120 ounces unloaded an SBR.

More confusingly, if a firearm has flip-up sights, then the ATF would give that gun one point towards becoming an SBR. The ATF would assign a gun with a red dot two points.  The ATF doesn’t see why a shooter would use a red dot pistol on a pistol.

The ATF would assign any gun with a hand stop two points.  That would put any firearm with a hand stop halfway to becoming an SBR.  The ATF would consider any gun with a secondary grip as an SBR.

The ATF encourages all companies to resubmit their sample firearms to the ATF’s Tech Branch to be reexamined.  It would cost the companies thousands of dollars for almost no chance of getting another determination letter stating that they can sell their gun as a pistol.

Even if a manufacturer’s product scores under four points, the ATF could determine that the company is trying to circumvent the NFA.  The ATF could choose to charge the company with a crime.  This power could discourage companies from selling braced pistols even if the ATF rules it is a pistol.

The ATF firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave and the TAC-14 will be considered Short-Barreled Shotguns (SBS).  There is no way to get any “shotgun-based” guns that could make it through the new regulations.

The ATF gives gun owners several choices.

The first choice is turning the guns into the ATF.  The ATF says this choice would be at “no-cost” to gun owners.  This move is gun confiscation.  The second choice would be to install a barrel that more than 16 inches long.  The third choice is to pay a $200 tax stamp and register it as an SBR.  The final option would be to modify the brace and not sell it to anyone in the future.

The document gives some alternatives. These alternatives include making the rules just guidance. That chance would mean that they would not have the force of law.  Other alternatives include grandfathering all firearms with braces or forgiveness of the tax stamp fee.

The comment period will open soon for pistol braces and the comment period on unfinished frame and receivers at still open.

Read the proposed rule here: https://www.atf.gov/file/154871/download


About John Crump

John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.

John Crump

Subscribe
Notify of
271 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago

What is the option to “modify the brace and not sell it to anyone in the future”? Great! I will mofify by removing the silly velcro strap, and leave the firearms to my heirs or give them away before I die. Seriously, before I die, I am going to spend an afternoon in the Walmart parking lot, handing free girearms out to total strangers.

Ryben Flynn
Ryben Flynn
1 day ago

ATF cannot amend any law in the Code of Federal Regulations. It’s up to Congress.

Jose
Jose
1 day ago

So if I remove the brace, still is and SBR because of the points system?

Jose
Jose
1 day ago

To make these regulations law, they have to change the GCA,NFA code ?
congress must approved like any other bill…

Grumpy
Grumpy
1 day ago

When are all these infiltrated commies going to be arrested and put to trial? I keep hearing promises, promises.

Last edited 1 day ago by Grumpy
Grumpy
Grumpy
1 day ago

Really need to put the pressure on to drop SBR and suppresser from NFA ’34. After all those were included during Freaky Hoover and Commie Roosevelt.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Grumpy

Why leave anything registered? Machine guns should be dropped off the National Register too. AOWs I dont care much about.

Arizona
Arizona
13 hours ago

No peacekeeping device used to defend the life, liberty and property of an American need ever be registered.

Arny
Arny
2 days ago

DEFUND THE ATF !

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago

Hypothesis: Jager is Crumpy trolling his own article for comment wars.

Darkman
Darkman
2 days ago

 Gun Control in regards to Law Abiding Citizens is Anti Freedom and Tyrants will say and/or do anything necessary to deflect from their intent for it’s Implementation. Whether it is through Insidious Means or outright Tyrannical Confiscation. The desire of Liberal Democrats to attain total control over the populace of Our nation has followed a long and convoluted path. With the impending confirmation of David Chipman as the next director pf the ATF. Firearms Rights proponents and Law Abiding Citizens once again find themselves under attack by unelected Bureaucrats who have no requirement to answer to “We the People”. This is not… Read more »

Rip
Rip
7 seconds ago
Reply to  Darkman

We’ll all be felones in the next few months. I’m not registering a damn thing. We need to fight this at the state level. Texas and the other 20+ that have passed constitional carry need to tell the fed to stick their new rules where the sun doesn’t shine. Come and get it.

Orion
Orion
2 days ago

Crump’s article is full of errors. suggest you read it for yourself…..all 71 pages!

Dragoon
Dragoon
2 days ago

Reading from this, a revolver or semi auto pistol will start the process with 2-3 points already against it. If you have sights and a red dot you have 3 points so all that would be needed would be another stupid and ambiguous definition and boom. Everything would need a tax stamp, be turned in or of course the most likely option be illegal and the population tells the BATF to pound sand.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Dragoon

Not yet. The closest it comes to handguns are the devices like the RONI conversions.

xtphreak
xtphreak
1 day ago
Reply to  Dragoon

By the worksheet, a revolver or pistol that is lighter than 64 oz and shorter than 12″ overall would be considered an SBR anytime a brace is attached to it.

Don
Don
2 days ago

These brace manufacturers submitted their designs to the ATF and got go-ahead letters before proceeding. Did these ATF letters say, “OK, for now”? If so, then everyone went ahead knowing full well that the rug might be yanked out from under them at any time. If, however, these letters were a straight “go” for manufacture/sale/possession then it would seem that those already sold would have to be grandfathered in as it’s the ATF that’s changing paddles in midstream. Otherwise it’s the possessor who’s left holding the bag in this nightmare. To claim that an arbitrary rule change automatically un-does everything… Read more »

RoyD
RoyD
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

You seem to have forgotten what the BATFE did with their revised bumpstock regulations.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

The problem is, they don’t give a damn, and don’t care about legal or constitutional restrictions either. They believe they have the ultimate power to do whatever they want and change their minds at their leisure. Unless the citizenry stands up and holds them accountable, along with the rest of the incompetent and corrupt employees of We the People, more of this will happen.

RayJN
RayJN
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

I figured they would change the rules after many were sold. How generous that you can turn in your weapon at no charge.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

They seem to be willing yo grandfather them, as long as you register them as an SBR. I dont want sny more of my guns registered, tax stamped, and regulated.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago

“Decisive Indicator (the weapon is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder” They do not define “from the shoulder.” When I fire a sidearm, it is aimed from the shoulders. Every pistol or revolver is rifled or should be. That makes them a short-barreled rifle. Argue all you want, but that is where this is going NEXT! These laws are unconstitutionally vague and their enforcement is arbitrary, ambiguous, and abusive. This is not a democracy where the wording is approved of by a referendum to get the consent of the governed. This is a republic where every power… Read more »

Don
Don
2 days ago

That’s a stretch.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

Don
Don
2 days ago

Your shooting from the shoulder remarks are silly. If you don’t know that, you’re in real trouble in the critical thinking arena.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

Arny
Arny
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

Something the Democrats seem to be good at. For the children. Common sense gun safety. lol

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

What was a “stretch”? His statement struck me as deep thinking, well thought, and succinctly worded.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago

Don is obviously trolling. The “stretch” remark is a weasel word intended to provoke an emotional response. Any attempt at logic, facts, or civility will be rewarded with name-calling, personal attacks, and/or vulgarity. Therefore, my responses to him will all now be:
YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

Boz
Boz
2 days ago

“The ATF gives gun owners several choices.
Gun owners will give ATF a singIe choice.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Boz

Did you see them here pandering for money?

nod
nod
2 days ago
Reply to  Boz

The ATF approved the arm brace and if I am not mistaken published a letter stating if brace could be fired from the shoulder. I am leaning towards you (the ATF) allowed the purchase and use of the brace you can’t take it back. Sorry for your luck.

Cam
Cam
2 days ago
Reply to  nod

The atf gives three options, all three cost a gun owner money. The gun owners relied on a written statement when they purchased there braces or guns that came with braces already attached.
Being forced to either loses the use of legally approved as per the atf ruling is a taking or tax.
Atf should be forced to be held to the fact that they made a ruling and people bought a legally approved produce because of their ruling.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

How many years ago did the ATF pretty much say with letters that arm braces were legal? How many people have purchased them up to this point? Do these psychopathic control freaks know what an Ex Post Facto law is? Well they don’t give a flying rats ass about the SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED part of the 2nd amendment so I suspect that there is one other choice…make them PAY if they want to attack you for the non crime of having a barrel on a whatever it is that is arbitrarily decided by ANYONE. Tyranny is at your door… Read more »

13JFO
13JFO
2 days ago

I have a feeling the estimated ~40 million pistol braces are not going to comply. Tough break, ATF. Ya dug yourselves a hole trying to bend the laws governing firearms with your secret, in-house decision-making bullshit.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  13JFO

I doubt there are 40 million AR pistols. I would think it is under 5 million. There are about 20 million AR rifles.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

Note, this is not the same Don, posting on this thread.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

You did not chose wisely: YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  13JFO

Take the brace off and put on three different lasers with adequate power and shoot your .308 from the hip. This is not relevant. They are going to say every pistol and revolver is a short-barreled rifle. If you had smooth bore, they will claim it is a short-barreled shotgun.

Don
Don
2 days ago

I don’t think there is a .308 that is under the 120 ounce limit.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

Don
Don
2 days ago

Which of the two Dons?

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

Cam
Cam
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

Wilson ar10 Ultralight ranger weighs in at 7&1/2 lbs with a 16” barrel. So I would bet there are more than a few pistols with a 10 inch barrel easily make weigh in.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
2 days ago

Smart.. You are reading into it and that exactly how they think. They think ahead. How can I sucker them into this for right now and then subvert it into something else using vague wording when it was originally written saying it means this today and then saying it means that tomorrow and then after careful analysis determining that it really meant both. Your thinking ahead is calling it just how it would happen. Thanks for the open mind and logical thinking. They call that conspiracy thinking but they have proven that we were right all along by their actions.… Read more »

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

The change in “readily” “receiver” and “firearms” makes every semiauto qualify as a readily converted machine gun, ie, a machine gun. The change in “rifle” and arbitrary point system that triple penalizes adjustability and admittedly isn’t even determinative turns 98% of braced pistols into SBR’s, which are also machine guns. The change on ghost guns makes alcoa and home depot register as SOT FFL’s and every block of aluminum is a receiver. The set up is in process to disarm everyone by making everyone a felon and every firearm restricted.

Don
Don
2 days ago

The .308 weighs more than 120 ounces. That alone makes it illegal.

Don
Don
2 days ago

No, an un-rifled pistol is an AOW – smooth bore handgun.

Finnky
Finnky
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

See points system – tough to make smooth bore aow. You may think it’s a pistol, but they will classify it as SBS.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

No. It is not. It is a shotgun. Otherwise, I would make my 12 gauge into a un-rifled pistol. It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt. Thanks for removing all doubt.

Cam
Cam
2 days ago

Probably, they have become a political gestapo that takes rights and freedoms from legal gun owners. Did it under Trump and doing under Creepy sleepy uncle joe

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago
Reply to  Cam

Legal is a term at the whim of the Congress who creates laws. Rights are never taken. They are violated. Privileges and immunities can be taken, but rights cannot. You can call the US government a “political gestapo” but the gestapo acted under the law and the law was created 15 September 1935, at a special meeting of the Reichstag; the legislative branch of Germany. By definition, a republic has a legislative branch. It is these “representatives” who constitute that legislature. Again, republics do not create or give rights. They exist and only can be violated. A republic cannot take… Read more »

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  13JFO

The rule change proposals are not secret. It is right here for you to review. They are defining rules, not law making.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

I think they are changing the requirements from which their rules were written. That’s illegal.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

The court will likely look upon this set of definitions favorably.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

Not if the coyrt continues to narrow the scope of Chevron Deferrence.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

Your so-called rule changes have the de facto power of law: they can take money out of your bank account, arrest you, charge you, try you, and then throw your ass in prison!

You can parse the words all you want in a mealy mouth way to your heart’s content, but when they have the power to throw you in prison and take your money it is the same as law, not constitutionally made law but the power of law nonetheless!

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

The law is the NFA ’34. These are definitions.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

They are defining rules they just added a few days ago. When I was a wee lad, we called that “cheating”.

Morrigan
Morrigan
2 days ago

People kicked the hornet’s nest when the “arm braces” first came out, and I
predicted where we are now clear back then. No one was fooled, a red flag was waved in front of the damned ATF and they responded. It just took
longer than I thought it would.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Morrigan

The ATF could not have done better if they planned it. Now every firearm will become a short-barreled rifle or shotgun when it does not have a 16 inch barrel. Your pistol/revolver has a short barrel with rifling. If you do not shoot from the hip, then you intend to shoot from the shoulder. For me, everything short of two feet is a short barrel and only short barrels should be allowed for concealed carry. A .22LR will just be another opportunity to apply a $200 tax…. Until it is a $2000 tax…… or a $2 million tax. Licenses, permits,… Read more »

Don
Don
2 days ago

Half the counties and some entire states are gun sanctuaries. Idaho state is a sanctuary state. They never regulated machine guns, SBRs or SBSs. Governor Little signed the sanctuary state law just recently.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

I don’t think Wyoming enforces any federal gun control from what I have heard.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago

We’ve got bad cops here and bad sheriffs and bad Highway patrol just like every other state, because our cops are just as human as any other bunch of cops!

However, since most people in Wyoming are armed the oath breaking cops here always keep that fact in mind.

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Don
Don
2 days ago

Let’s face it. The way the points are awarded there really won’t be any AR pistols. Perhaps when the registration scheme arrives you record the OAL to match a real telescoping stock, and do the real SBR.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

The F squad admits on page 29 that even if points assessed do not determine the firearm is an SBR, the Atf can and will still determine the firearm is an SBR, for untold reasons. This is a gimmick, masquerading as an objective criteria worksheet.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

This worksheet is designed to classify all AR pistols as SBRs. None of the existing guns can pass this test.

Orion
Orion
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

incorrect. just remove the brace and/or revert back to gen 1 style round tube.

with a 10.5″ barrel, the original SIG brace just might be legal…. nonadjustable with straps, less than 26″ OAL.
sbt A3s and A4s are hit tho.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Orion

That is not what people want. Sure you can restore it to a useless gun. You can’t keep it in a usable form. Let’s face it, it has always been an SBR.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Orion

Removing the brace means it is not a braced pistol. So naturally it is an un-braced pistol.

Finnky
Finnky
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

I still need to reread the document a bit more carefully, but looked to me like many AR pistols would still be classified as a SBR even without the brace.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Orion

If you have a gear head works mod 1 tailhook on a fixed round buffer tube you are golden. That breezes through their crooked scheme, but you you still have to watch what accessories are on it, best to just have a red dot I think. But again, since the F troop says it isnt even determinative, and each agent could rate a firearm differently, this is just a means to turn pistols into sbr’s and us into criminals. They seem to forget the fact that after the first felony, the rest are free. These dumb gmen shoukd stop and… Read more »

Jager
Jager
2 days ago

Good, it’s about time the brace babies were forced to man up and pay their taxes like the rest of us in the NFA world have been for decades. You want a controlled item? Pony up the money for it and wait. Otherwise miss me with that “law abiding gun owner” shtick because you certainly are not law abiding if you have to skirt the law to get an SBR. I have never seen a single brace baby using the brace wrapped around their forearm as initially approved by the feds. They all shoulder it. It’s clear this was and… Read more »

Stag
Stag
5 hours ago
Reply to  Jager

Butters and Fudds, like you, are a cancer and disgrace to the 2A.

GoodGuy729
GoodGuy729
2 days ago

NOTE: The “alternatives” are NOT alternatives, the ATF rejects each of them as unacceptable on pages 54-55 of the proposed ruling. Besides, grand-fathering and tax-stamp forgiveness is nothing more than a sell-out for future generations. We must draw a line in the sand and make our voices heard when the comment period opens up!

Jager
Jager
2 days ago
Reply to  GoodGuy729

The only acceptable alternative is filing a Form 1 and paying your taxes like you should have been doing all along.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Forget ye were our countryman!

Stag
Stag
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Butters and Fudds are cancer.

Finnky
Finnky
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Or accepting that one has become an outlaw. Of course anyone taking that path must understand that saving their own life may require takingbthose of ATF agents.
While I categorically reject unnecessary violence, defense against those “following orders” here is no less a moral imperative than killing nazi death camp guards would have been. They too were “just following orders”. Only difference is that Jews lacked tools, skills and mindset. Given their example of what happens to those who comply, we won’t.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Finnky

I like to tjink of Jews in the context of Mila 18.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Phuk ewe! I already have all the tax stamps I need.

circe
circe
2 days ago

We need make more comments in the ATF comment section as it pertains to re-regulating the definition of firearm receivers – there aren’t enough comments, & we need to let our voices be heard, & the same will need to be done when the comment section of the ATF comment section opens up for new definition on legalities of pistol braces – make Your voices be heard! these ATF scum bags are just that – scumbags, it’s all about control & money! We need to abolish the ATF & someone please get rid of David Chipman – Send him to… Read more »

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  circe

Where is the evidence that he is smart enough to sort paperclips?

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  circe

No, send him to a quiet room with no windows and padded walls because he is the EPITOME of a mentally disturbed psychopathic control freak anti rights piece of human excrement that I would love to meet in person on an elevator for 25 seconds. YES YOU DAVID SHIT MAN. Your face looks like my SUV backed into it. What a TURD you are. (Just in case he gets to read this)

jukk0u
jukk0u
2 days ago
Reply to  circe

Comments on the AFT (sic; President Xiden) are not enough. Make your Senator and representative’s lives a daily chore of sorting through your phone calls, emails and in-office visits.

That items you invest in one day become ‘illegal’ the next is Not acceptable, nor is that a minor bureau subsidiary of the IRS can make arbitrary and perpetually shifting rulings with the force of law (thank you courts /s)

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  jukk0u

Your representatives and senators don’t have much leverage here. This is not a bill, it is a definition of terms.

Orion
Orion
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

we stopped the ban on 855 ammo by contacting elected reps and senators. we can do this again.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Orion

I don’t think that will work this time. Republicans are in the minority, and a few will support anti-gun moves. This doesn’t have to go before congress.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  circe

Be sure to demand what Studies were performed and examined to determine each of their assertions. They make sweeping statements, such as “pistols with braces attached are more concealable than those without.” Based on what? Said who? It is a flat out lie, as adding a brace adds bulk, weight and space, all of which make a firearm less concealable. What studies said that a pistol weighing more than 7.5 pounds is inappropriate for a brace and cannot be accurately fired? How many studies were conducted? By who? How many and what firearms and braces were studied? What studies determined… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  circe

We need to not only win this battle, but turn this whole damned war around snd prosecute it to a successful conclusion.

RB
RB
2 days ago

I can’t imagine of one braced pistol that wouldn’t pass their point system. We should fight for the right of everyone going forward. But a the very least for people who have owned these for years, built them with the guidance/ruling that the ATF themselves set forth the last 10 years on braces should not have to register them, basically being grandfathered in. Otherwise, it makes millions of law abiding citizens felons overnight. And a good percentage of them, unknowingly. But sure that won’t happen. The goal here is to have people turn them in, or register(even if fee is… Read more »

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  RB

That’s funny because I never even considered it….

Heller says I don’t have to.

Last edited 2 days ago by Patriot Solutions
Jager
Jager
2 days ago

Actually, Heller says weapons like this can and should be regulated. It’s even in the ATF document. Quit making excuses for skirting the law while calling yourself a “law abiding” gun owner, man up, and pay your $200 tax if you want a short barreled rifle like the rest of us who play the NFA game have been doing for decades.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Thanks for the offer ATF man but I don’t need an SBR.

I didn’t strike you down either but my brothers sure nailed your ass.

Things I need, stitches pulled out, new kitchen sink fixture etc…….

Last edited 2 days ago by Patriot Solutions
circe
circe
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

We are *manned up* that’s why we’re a 2A community that doesn’t like our constitutional rights being used as toilet paper, & we don’t like Tyrants – didn’t like it in the 1700s & don’t care for it now, how about You be an American man up

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

“Go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Yes, “man up” and take it in the anal orifice just like you have been doing for decades. Try not to get too much dirt off those boots on your TONGUE.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

and what about all that jizz they gulp down?

Stag
Stag
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Whatever, Fudd.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Stuff a pie in it, butt-monkey; I have a dozen tax stamps, including a full auto Thompson, and I dont want any more tax stamps. NO MORE TAX STAMPS!

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  RB

Maybe people need to learn how to say NOT GUILTY on juries. Yes, THEY said they were OK for at least 10 years. And that is the way it is…OK.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  RB

The primary purpose of this rule change is to create criminal activity and possession where none previously existed, to enable the government to declare 4 million + law abiding citizens are now criminals. The purpose is to give the government an excuse to arrest and prosecute said citizens, and use that as leverage to disarm the public. And to set a precedent for future retroactive changes that will make more firearms verboten. The rule change on receivers, readily, and firearms already will make every single semiauto a de facto machine gun, as they change “readily” to mean “an 8 hour… Read more »

Bill
Bill
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

United States Constitution, Section 22, Art. III. No ex post facto law or bill of attainder shall be enacted.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Bill

This is a set of definitions not a law. The guns are illegal under the NFA ’34. ATF just wasn’t on the mark for several years. Now they are. How many of us have been telling these “pistol” owners that this was coming? I have always said these were simply SBRs.
I can’t get too worked up over this set of definitions. If you think these were not simply a workaround to the NFA, you’ve been lying to yourself.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

So…”I am even a gun owner, but…” Fudd.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

Whats wrong with a workaround to the NFA? I will do anything I can to subvert them, just like any other enemy.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Bill

Since when did our Federal Government or its alphabet soup agencies start following the law?

Z
Z
2 days ago

This is ridiculously stupid…..there is noway that law abiding Americans are going to turn in a weapon that is legal now…This is confiscation….or pay $200.00 for registration for confiscation or change a barrel to 16 inches….???? The thing is… people will not comply with the BATEE NOR WILL OUR POLICE…!

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

Police will do what their master orders them to do as they have always done to get us here where we are today. They are un-elected bureaucrats un-like Sheriff’s who are accountable to The People who elect and support them.

Z
Z
2 days ago

Brother you have no idea who will not comply…I think you need a serious lesson that people will not comply to include police officers…Us gun owners are law abiding always…if it comes to confiscation…we the people become outlaws…!

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

Example: You can open carry by law here but if you open carry in Denver County the Police will gang up on you and drag you to the ground wrestle your gun away then off to jail but take one step across the county line and the Sheriff will not beat you down and drag you off.

The Constitution clearly dictates who the outlaws are during a confiscation and it is not We The People.

Last edited 2 days ago by Patriot Solutions
CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

It sounds like the Denver County Police are outlaws that need to be dealt with as any other outlaw. And if that means the use of deadly force, SO BE IT. The tree of liberty needs a little watering here and there of the BLOOD OF TYRANTS as well as patriots. I’m reminded of Gordon Kahl as I write this…

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

They actually threw a beating to a black guy saying while doing so that he isn’t even supposed to be in Denver that he is out of his home county.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Tough talk from an anonymous troll.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Kahl was a low life thug.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

I do believe sir that you are the one who needs to reconsider his position. I’ve spoken to quite a few cops and many say they will not enforce such rules/laws. However, there are a bunch who will in fact enforce such rulings which have the effect and power of law, so yes local LEOS will be right there beside the ATF Tac Teams and FBI with their weapons pointed at law abiding people’s homes over these rule changes! However, before we get to that point the ATF will simply have Merrick Garland the new AG to begin instituting financial… Read more »

JimmyS
JimmyS
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

How many cops enforce the current treasonous and unlawful gun laws on the books? All of them. You are an idiot. Pull your head out of your ass.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

Yeah, but they are “just do’in my job” wiping their ass on our Constitution.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

Which is one reason I tell people there are is no such thing as a “good cop”. They enforce all kinds of tyrannical no victim so called crime laws. Hell, two showed up at my house to make sure Entergy could put a smart meter on my home over my objection unless Entergy would prove they would be held liable for any damages the piece of crap might cause.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

It is just a new meter. What’s to fear?

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

Why thank you so much for such a calm, even handed, logical, and respectful response: nice of you to avoid specifics while forcing mindless generalities to the fore! Unless you have become God, you do not know all cops across this country; point of fact you do not know all cops in your county, and point of fact if you live in a large city, you do not know all cops in just your one city! Bottom line is that you’re the one talking out of your posterior my dear fellow! Cops are human beings and as human beings they… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

Stewart Rhodes is a swine.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

The cops in CA, CT, NJ, DC, MD, NY and MA gleefully enforce gun laws. Would you trust a NJ cop with anything?

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

Wow…so what they are going to do is force you into going postal on them and showing up at their offices out of the blue and and and…fill in the blanks. And I’m sure some ASSHOLE TURD FREAK (ATF) may read this and I don’t give a shit. For one thing, I don’t own any pistols that have braces but I do know a few friends that do and I will go and help them if the time came to defend their right to own them. Hey ATF…tell Herb Byerly hi for me and Michael Springer too. I’m hoping both… Read more »

Z
Z
2 days ago

Being retired law enforcement along with my brothers we will not comply with unconstitutional confiscation…!

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

Good, then please lead on with my support.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

Different people have different attitudes, and cops are just people with the authority and weight of the badge for which to be responsible. You are retired, so there is also the fact of generational differences: young cops who have been on the job for 10 years or less do not have your mindset, point of fact cops have been on the job for 20 years do not have your mindset. Like I said, I know a bunch of cops, pd’s, so, and hp’s, who will in fact not enforce such laws / rules. However, there are sheriffs who will comply,… Read more »

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

and, let the record reflect how peaceful it currently is and has been in my very armed 2A sanctuary county before they attack and destabilize it in the name of public safety.

JimmyS
JimmyS
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

Except for all those unconstitutional confiscations that you already participated in….

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

I confiscated a few guns while a cop. All the seizures were lawful. You wouldn’t want guns to be in the hands of those I took them from.

Jager
Jager
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

You are retired for a reason. If you cannot enforce the law then you do not belong in law enforcement period! Don’t worry, we will enforce the law and protect our communities from these unusually dangerous weapons.

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

your pad will protect your underwear from your unusually dangerous lack of bladder control.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Intrepidus

His bladder is fine, its his vagina that leaks.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Tell you what you brain dead moron…if the people turn against you, you won’t be safe from shit. Your job will be your downfall and quick trip to a box. Move where I am and try some tyrannical shit on someone and see what happens…Oh wait, you won’t be able to see what happens.

jukk0u
jukk0u
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

It’s not the weapons which are dangerous, quisling.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

I never quite know why an AR pistol is more dangerous than a 16 inch carbine. You’re less likely to hit with a lower powered pistol.

Stag
Stag
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Come get em, coward.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Many laws are left up to the officers discretion. I didn’t issue lots of tickets when I could have. A lot of the job is educating the public and seeking voluntary compliance with the laws. Voluntary compliance means no ticket or arrest.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

“Unusually dangerous weapons” lol.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Z

Now thar we are retired, we wont. But what if we still had to get up every morning, pin on the badge, pull on the boots, and show up at roll call?

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

Hmmmm….I think the actual law says SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED and that anything being called a “law” that violates that is null and void. I don’t think the Founding Fathers intended for the nation to be nothing but lawyers to be able to understand the plain language and understanding of the Constitution.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

and the law must be drafted in such a fashion that the average person with an average IQ can understand it otherwise it is null n void and this gun control shit makes absolutely no sense to me in light of what 2A clearly states.

Jager
Jager
2 days ago
Reply to  Z

These were never legal. Show me an ATF letter on the SBA 3. You can’t. This is just the agency finally giving guidance on what is and isn’t legal. Skirting the NFA was NEVER LEGAL and registration of such items has been held constitutional under Heller.

Grow up and pay your taxes if you want an SBR brace baby.

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

…said no one who has actually read Heller.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Intrepidus

WRONG! THE COURT HELD IN HELLER: United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54 OBVIOUSLY HELLER REAFFIRMED THE NFA. Miller died before he could finish arguing his defense. The shotgun was in common use in the World War and less common before. A sawed off shotgun was in common use for lawful purposes for self-defense. His death made that issue… Read more »

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago

Wrong. SCOTUS ruled in Miller that since they were provided no evidence to the contrary, as there was NO DEFENSE PRESENT, that short barreled shotguns were not especially useful as militia arms or military arms, arms which they stated were protected by the 2nd. The government’s attorneys did not mention that SBS were frequently used in trench warfare, especially suitable to militia and military service, and thus protected. The NFA has never been on trial with a Defense Present! The NFA was admittedly an end run around the 2nd using taxing authority as an excuse to arrest gangsters. Read the… Read more »

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

You are in denial. I quoted what they said in HELLER and how they characterized MILLER.The power of Congress to create the NFA and any other regulations was re-affirmed, as I stated. The Supreme Court has the power to interpret MILLER as they see fit. YOU DO NOT. PERIOD. END. This is a republic, not a democracy. Your opinions are irrelevant, invalid, and moot.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago

Hahaha! You are triggered so easily. And wrong.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

Vulgarity, name calling, strawman claims, and personal attacks are not a substitute for civil communication, logical argument, or facts. YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

JohnLloyd…And what is so hard for those brain dead psychopathic control freaks on the supreme court to understand about SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED? All they had to do is read some of the founding fathers many statments about the 2nd amendment and they would have recused themselves from the case. It was to take these weapons from the bootleggers. They were IDIOTS. PERIOD. And if you think otherwise, you are one too.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Your ignorance of the “founding fathers” is near complete. Congress was meant to be the “natural aristocracy” composed of plutocrats: “The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams (1813). “The selecting the best male for a Harem of well chosen females also, which Theognis seems to recommend from… Read more »

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago

This just proves my own belief that our Representstive Republic does not work as intended.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
1 day ago

It works EXACTLY AS INTENDED. Obviously that made two unhappy to hear it who had no argument to deny it. ” Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. “ James Madison TUESDAY JUNE 26TH, 1787 Secret Debates of the Federal Convention of 1787 History shows the Senate was originally those “landholders.” No republic is representative and the Constitution was constructed to be an atheistic form of “natural aristocracy” as… Read more »

SEMPAI
SEMPAI
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Jager your on the wrong message board BABY.
I shall show you the letter to the ATF that somehow you have dismissed.
The 2nd Amendment !! Now go away glow man you reek of it.
Maybe go fish at TTAG message boards your not fooling anyone here.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

They might not have been “legal” according to YOUR understanding but that’s because you’re a low IQ TYRANT who follows orders and doesn’t pay shit attention to your oath that says you’ll uphold and defend SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

goomba.png
jukk0u
jukk0u
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

of what benefit is the tax? What is the return to the citizen for such a fee?

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  jukk0u

It is called a “tax” because Congress has the power to tax everything. We do not base taxes on the benefits they provide. This is not a “Liberty Mutual” government where you only pay for what you need. And this is not another version of Medicare or Social Security Insurance tax. It is not an act to benefit aged seamen or the poor to have health insurance. If they actually used it for investigation, it would cost many times $200. The cost of the paperwork alone is not paid for, actually. NO ONE benefits. It is intended to intimidate you… Read more »

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

TAX…another name for SLAVERY.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Conscription is another name for slavery. Tax is another name for robbery. Ultimately, they can conscript you and all wealth created by your labor is theirs. Slavery is a 100% tax and, under the Constitution, they still allow you to keep at least 60%. The government whose Constitution you believe is the bible of liberty was created for this purpose. This government is like a catholic church where they control the Bible interpretation to create the traditions you swallow hole. Instead of a Pope or Episcopate, it is the President or Congress. You live in the slavery of a republic… Read more »

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  jukk0u

No jail cell.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

The NFA was NEVER LEGAL! I dont give a rats ass what the corrupt courts have said. GCA ’68 infringes our rights; and HUGHES was “passed” clearly, blatantly, FRAUDULENTLY, by that corrupt asshole Charlie Rangel.

swmft
swmft
2 days ago

have a better choice we the people vote the atf out of existence

Last edited 2 days ago by swmft
Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  swmft

We the people do not have that power: Congress has that power, but Congress is full of cowards, liars, thieves, or, as Obi-Wan Kenobi once put it: “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” So the bottom line is that you and I know that the ATF will never be put out of existence: the low-life scum of villainy who wanted to be FBI agents but couldn’t pass the tests to become FBI agents, so they decided to become ATF agents instead, will continue their villainy, their murdering, their thuggery, etc.… Read more »

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

And it just may be some of the guys who were at the Tet offensive that finally say enough is enough.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

WRONG CHILD!. The only guys at the Tet Offensive in 1968 who say “enough is enough” were the ones who did not re-enlist or evaded conscription by the Viet Cong. Most of us who served do not want to fight another civil war and get stabbed in the back again. I served from 1969 to 1975: We all want to change the world But when you talk about destruction Don’t you know that you can count me out  Beatles – July 1968. The Democrats have been provoking a war through their BLM and Antifa black shirts and brown shirts behind… Read more »

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

Reads like your balls were shot off.
Some things are worse than death. Like slavery for one. Like Gulags for one. We’ll just sit back and watch them burn it all down, right? WRONG.

Last edited 2 days ago by CourageousLion
JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Vulgarity, name calling, strawman claims, and personal attacks are not a substitute for civil communication, logical argument, or facts. YOU WIN THE WEASAL AWARD: For distinguished use of words and phases communicating vague or ambiguous impressions that something meaningful has been said.

RoyD
RoyD
2 days ago

Your statement reminds me of another, “Well, I do declare!” And, by extension, you seem to bear some resemblance to the character who made it.

JimmyS
JimmyS
2 days ago
Reply to  swmft

Vote them out? JFC.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  JimmyS

Right. Swap misrepresentatives. That always works¡‽⸘⸮⸮¿⸘

Tbone
Tbone
2 days ago
Reply to  swmft

The last time that this was contemplated, the OKC bombing happened

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Tbone

Yeah, and I wonder who was behind that…Oh wait, no I don’t. WONDER that is.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  Tbone

You think that was the last time? Where were you on 9/11?

swmft
swmft
2 days ago

i have desert eagle that qualifies under these rules and no brace

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  swmft

They will be changing the rules for that pistol to put it under “destructive device”. They will say that the bore of a pistol can’t be over .04999 inches. They can say what they want. They don’t make the law. A BRACED pistol is NOT an SBR. Otherwise they wouldn’t have let them come into existence in the first place.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

The first braces, were braces. Then the industry pushed the limits, shoving it in the face of the ATF. It was bound to happen, and it has. There is no reason to be crying, as you all know you have an SBR. I’ve spent $1,600 on stamps just to evade arrest. In the 40 years I’ve had SBRs and SBSs, I have never had a visit by ATF.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Don

That’s nice. You were a good little peasant, and paid the man for the privilege, which is actually a right that requires no fee. You haven’t had a visit yet, because they havent gotten bold enough, yet. But they will visit you and those who naively begged permission and registered firearms… long before they visit anyone else.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

Because obviously since he is a good slave he won’t fight them when they come to get his $1600 of registered toys. I don’t have any NFA items because you just can’t find them at gun shows on someones table, damn it.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Manufacture them yourself on a Form 1.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Don

Oh, stifle it Edith.

JohnLloydScharf
JohnLloydScharf
2 days ago
Reply to  swmft

They can call your “desert eagle” a short barreled rifle tomorrow. Braces are just an excuse.

MB
MB
2 days ago

Owning any gun, or any other object should not be illegal. Misuse of that object in a criminal fashion is what should only be illegal. We have laws that protect persons and property from illegal behavior. What anyone owns is nobody’s business, and certainly not the governments. Governments ban guns because they plan on doing something the citizens would shoot them for,

Last edited 2 days ago by MB
Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  MB

That is the difference between fighting crime and fighting against ones own country.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  MB

Exactly. All possession laws are unconstitutional and assume facts not in evidence: that the possessed item will be used to harm others in some criminal act. They are also completely useless. If a person is determined to commit murder, which is against the law, then additional laws barring murder with a specific tool, or the ownership or possession of said tool will have no bearing whatsoever. The only laws that should ever exist and gain support of the People are laws against actions, and specifically those actions which cause harm to others.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  MB

ABSOLUTELY! NO VICTIM, NO CRIME. No CRIME, not GUILTY your “honor”. CRIMES have a victim.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
2 days ago

I have 12 or 14 firearms assembled to take advantage of the legal benefits of pistol braces, and I fo not want them registered with tax stamps. Even a free tax stamp encumbers the firearm, and decreases its value via diminished resalability. We have to light a fire under our representatives and make this thing not happen.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago

Good luck with that, they won’t even listen to a common sense concept like balancing the budget!

The scum like power and control and they are addicted to the privilege their offices provide them: they don’t believe in doing what is best for the people who elect them, they just like making a good show of talking about doing what is best for the people who elect them.

So don’t hold your breath on Congress doing anything moral, ethical, much less to say constitutional.

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Jager
Jager
2 days ago

Reselling firearms without a license is illegal. Resale value should not be a concern to you at all as an unlicensed individual. Only criminals and terrorists do not want to register their guns under the NFA. Which are you?

RoyD
RoyD
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Do you work hard at being an imbecile or does it just naturally flow from you? I pity those whom you deal with in everyday life.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  RoyD

Your family must think you are a hoot at the dinner table

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago

Oops. Sorry, obviously meant for Jacker.

Bozz
Bozz
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Now you are just spouting off about a subject you know nothing about. Reselling firearms without a license is absolutely legal, unless you do it on a regular basis for profit. Selling a firearm you have owned for years does not qualify as being in the business. Regular folks don’t want to register their fire arms because registration always leads to confiscation.

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Only bedwetters and dandies want to register their guns under the NFA. Which are you?

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Intrepidus

Jager is sitting in his mom’s basement clutching his pearls.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

No “law” should exist for a crime unless there is a victim involved. If you are willing to cage or kill me for keeping the fruits of my labor, YOU are the criminal, not me. If you are willing to cage or kill me enforcing a law telling me that I cannot smoke, eat or drink what I want, YOU are the criminal not me. If you are willing to cage me or kill me while enforcing a law that says that I can’t own a certain type of gun or because I decide to put a AR pistol to my shoulder,… Read more »

xtphreak
xtphreak
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

No, reselling your personal firearms without an FFL is not illegal in most of the country (74% actually).
Only in 13 states are private sales of firearms even required to have a background test.

Not worry about the value of his firearms?
Why on earth wouldn’t he?
They’re an investment.

As to your comment and questio9n regarding the NFA, you’re trying to force an answer to a fallacy of bifurcation.
Those are NOT the only choices in this situation.

Last edited 2 days ago by xtphreak
Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

That is absolutely a stupid comment. We can resell any gun we own. Don’t resell drugs, as that is a crime. We don’t need a license to sell guns to friends and family.

Stag
Stag
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Only tyrants advocate for arms control.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

What kind of low 2 digit IQ dumb shit are you?

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Reselling personally owned firearms is perfectly legal, and should be, you jackass.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Actually, I have been considered both, within some jurisdictions.

Boris Badenov
Boris Badenov
2 days ago

Looks like the ATF has a solution looking for a problem or living back in the 1920’s. Perhaps they should ban trench coats while they are at it. Chicken, here’s your little.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Boris Badenov

I keep forgetting to ask you to say hi to Natasha for me, so if you would please say hi to Natasha for me!

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

PS the moose and the squirrel say hello.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

So how is Rocky and Bullwinkle?

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Keeping on keeping on just as usual: kicking butt and taking names in their spectacularly individual fashions!

Alan in NH
Alan in NH
2 days ago

Excuse me but I think Mr. Crump needs a new yardstick. I have a 10.5″ barrel AR pistol right here and when you measure from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel, minus the flash hider. it is 25 inches.

Alan in NH
Alan in NH
2 days ago
Reply to  Alan in NH

Also in New Hampshire last week we passed a new law making us a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary State just waiting for Gov. Sununu is expected to sign it.

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Alan in NH

Splendid bit of feel-good legislation: it has zero rule of law bite, and no judge in the country would protect it when an deputy AG from the doj is standing before the bench prosecuting you.

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Alan in NH

Yeah, that’s not how the ATF is going to measure your pistol.

Put the brace back on the buffer tube, and include the flash hider forward slash muzzle brake as part of the measurement.

Welcome to the ranks of the NFA!!

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Alan in NH
Alan in NH
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

The muzzle device doesn’t count unless it has been pinned and welded. they might ban the brace like they tried to ban bumpstocks but just going by their own rules.
The NH Sanctuary law would prohibit any NH Law Enforcement Officers from enforcing or helping anyone else enforce any new federal law putting further restrictions on NH citizens 2nd Amendment rights. There’s a lot more to it than that, but that is the purpose of it.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Alan in NH

AND any elected SHERIFF could arrest any Federal agent for violating under the color of law any person’s right to life liberty and property that he wants and what are the feds going to do? What if the SHERIFF formed a possee of the citizens of his county, WHICH UNDER LAW HE COULD DO, arm them all with MACHINE GUNS and say to the FEDS GET LOST? Then what?

xtphreak
xtphreak
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

well here’s what I found on the AFT web site. ATF-LS-FT1 Examinations of Firearms  https://www.atf.gov/file/128841/download I. Scope This policy and procedure guideline establishes a standard guideline for examining firearms and documenting relevant information. This protocol is applicable to all ATF Firearm and Toolmark Examiners.  … V. Procedures See ATF-LS-FT9 Firearm and Toolmark … Measuring overall length barrel length (if needed): • Definitions • Barrel length – the distance between the end of the barrel and the face of the closed breechblock or bolt for firearms other than for revolvers. On revolvers, barrel length is the overall length of the barrel… Read more »

Last edited 2 days ago by xtphreak
Alan in NH
Alan in NH
2 days ago
Reply to  xtphreak

Great research xtf. Of course the BATFE regards the regulations as whatever they say it is at any moment, but whether they actually get away with it would be another thing. Like the ban on bump stocks that was found to be illegal.

Bill
Bill
3 days ago

Craziness!

Agostino
Agostino
3 days ago

Paragraphs 1 through 4 are so subjective the 9th Circuit would throw them out. And further, today everyone is taught under every standard to use a two hand grip for accuracy.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Agostino

A three point position is even more accurate, so apparently the AFT wants people to shoot innocent bystanders while defending themselves if their “pistol” happens to end up on their shoulder to make it more accurate. Is it just me or did this whole pile of SHIT that was passed in 1934 make any sense to anyone who can critically think? And of course Jager isn’t included in the list of people who can critically think. Or uphold the OATH he SWORE to uphold.

Dan
Dan
3 days ago

I don’t understand why Ammoland would use the picture they did in the headline of this article. The people on the fence about all gun laws are the folks we want to sway to our side and that pic makes the gun look like a rifle. Non gun owners know nothing about guns but they are the majority of the public and we must be careful what we expose them to while trying to educate them.

Finnky
Finnky
3 days ago
Reply to  Dan

Had a coworker who bought a shockwave as his first gun. Wanted something for home defense and didn’t want an AR due to fear of future regulations. Did not want to have to keep track of legal changes or have to register for NFA.

I will make an effort to find his contact info and ask him to comment. People like him are at risk of becoming felons without a clue that they are. This is a case where fuds can be our friends.

Don
Don
2 days ago
Reply to  Finnky

The ATF may pressure dealers to send a warning letter to each customer that bought a newly prohibited weapon.

ROCK6
ROCK6
3 days ago
Reply to  Dan

This administration and the BATFE are muddying the water. That picture is exactly what braces were designed for regardless of how end-users use them. I no longer believe there are fence-sitters regarding the 2A. Either you are for it or you are against it, you are either for liberty or for oppression; whether you are a gun owner or not. We need to stop sugar-coating the 2A and it’s true purpose, and stop trying to appeal to any American who doesn’t know or understand the Constitution; that’s a waste of time and effort. I’m all for educating those wanting to… Read more »

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  ROCK6

And we need to get the governors of our states to reinstate the first 13 words of the Second amendment. You know the part that has the word NECESSARY in it which is the only place in the whole Constitution it is in!

Boris Badenov
Boris Badenov
2 days ago
Reply to  Dan

Not only do non gun owners know nothing about guns but far too many in the media that write about them know nothing, heck they can’t even read what they write and understand what you are saying when you point out their factual errors. Case in point the Mercury News in San Jose CA, …Alaska & Oklahoma do not require ANY background checks on the sale of firearms. I pointed out that new firearm sales DO require a NICS per the Feds. The guy didn’t get it.

Jager
Jager
2 days ago
Reply to  Dan

Well I mean it kinda is a rifle. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck.. must be a duck.

Which is why all of this is happening to begin with. Violation of the spirit of the law if not the letter is still a crime.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

That is why this is clearly written so that even a drunk can understand it.

Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

We NEED THE MILITIAS back to take care of this kind of CRAP. Do you suppose that milita members could be armed with machine guns, short barrel rifles and shot guns and even hand grenades? Well duh, huh. That’s why THEY did away with them in 1903. BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY AFRAID OF HAVING THEIR ASSES handed to them. Today they are hiding behind razor wire and fences and people with machine guns.

Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Hm. If it walks like a redcoat, blusters like a redcoat, looks like a redcoat…

Bozz
Bozz
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Try using the spirit of the law as a defense in court.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

So violating the spirit of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED must be a crime, right Mr. Rocket Scientist??

Alan in NH
Alan in NH
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

The thing is Jager, the Gov has defined what is a handgun and what is a rifle. We the People have devised our fire arms to comply with the laws by their definitions. They are the ones who keeps trying to change the rules after the fact.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Violating the spirit of a law is not a crime, violating the letter of a law is a crime. Thas why laws are written down, so we can refer back to the details. Jerk.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Dan

Here let me help. This should fix it for you.

ATF-confusion-b.png
Arizona
Arizona
3 days ago

Everything in the proposal is arbitrary and subjective, except for weight and length. They claim certain weights cannot have braces attached, as if they knew how strong or weak everyone is. They claim a pistol must be fired with one hand, yet their own website demonstrates they force their agents to fire Glocks with two hands. They can’t follow their own rules, yet want to tell us how we can hold our weapons?

They can roll these 75 pages up into a fat tube and shove it up their …..

Rip
Rip
3 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

We’re just going to skip these rules in Texas. Our Governor will have to step up.

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
3 days ago
Reply to  Rip

We threw the whole damn pile of shit in the trash here and ya know what, the world did not come to an end. Our cops are mostly fighting crime not the Constitution. “Statement from Teller County Sheriff Jason Mikesell I believe the Constitution of the United States of America is the backbone of our Country. The Constitutional Amendments are absolute; they are the building blocks and the very fabric that makes us different from other Countries. The Second Amendment states that “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Some believe the right… Read more »

Last edited 2 days ago by Patriot Solutions
Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago

For every Sheriff that you put up some quote from supporting the Constitution and the second amendment, I can find a sheriff who is anti-2A.

the number of Big City chiefs of police who are anti-2a are plethora and they are not bashful about getting in front of a group of microphones and fawning propagandists in the DSM to report their Contra constitutional words.

Get ready for Tet ’68 all over again!

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

Probably true about the Sheriff’s but I’ll take the ones that are Constitutional because I’m trying to fix a country not destroy it.

But yeah, let’s keep ramming those bad ones till it breaks off.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago

I was just at the Red Pill Expo in Rapid City South Dakota where Sheriff Richard Mack talked about the power a sheriff has. He has an organization called the Constitutional Sheriff and Peace Officers Association that puts on training seminars. I suggest that ever person send their sheriff cost free to one. My county Sheriff was sent my myself and another patriot and when he came back he said that he learned more in two days about the Constitution than he had in his whole life. https://cspoa.org/

Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago
Reply to  Rip

Your Governor cannot step up, he can’t walk he’s in a wheelchair!

You cannot throw verbiage out like that and not expect some of us to be tempted beyond our self-discipline to not step up and write such things.

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

…..ass?

APG member
APG member
3 days ago

Take an absurd, arbitrary, capricious (unconstitutional) regulation and make it a vague as possible so anyone may be arrested for violating it. Spend your family’s entire fortune defending yourself in court. Bureau rats and legislators in your version of a free country collect a paycheck proposing this nonsense.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  APG member

Glorified welfare recipients that can murder your wife and son because you cut a shotgun barrel off.

Randy-Weaver-600-minus911.png
RoyD
RoyD
3 days ago

So, in other words they want to call a spade a spade. I really don’t have a problem with that. I also don’t have a problem for legal owners of said firearms telling the BATFE to “FUCK OFF!” My only AR15 style firearm is an rifle with a 20″ bbl and doesn’t have a forward assist. And it was given to me. These last couple of weeks I have worked to double the amount of ammo I have for that gun to around 3000 rounds. The BATFE can fuck right off!

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 days ago
Reply to  RoyD

Quadrupole thumbs up!

Arizona
Arizona
3 days ago
Reply to  RoyD

The purpose is to expand what is defined as criminal possession and increase the number of citizens who can be arrested. They are going to make millions of law abiding Americans into felons, overnight, merely for possessing the firearms which they legally purchased. It is vindictive and it serves no purpose other than to criminalize Americans who have caused no harm to themselves or others.

It wont stop violence or crime or disarm a single person, but it will start a cvil war.

RoyD
RoyD
3 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

Just about every household has gasoline, glass containers and cloth that can be torn into strips. Therefore they have de facto possession of Molotov cocktails. Which are illegal just about everywhere I believe. LOL!

Patriot Solutions
Patriot Solutions
3 days ago
Reply to  RoyD

I actually never even thought of that (wink wink). What else do you think I can make for war from what I might have on hand? Looool.

Please do tell…

Lysander Spooner
Lysander Spooner
2 days ago
Reply to  RoyD

Don’t forget the styrofoam cups

RoyD
RoyD
2 days ago

I see we have a “jelly” fan.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  RoyD

Add some packing styrofoam to the mix and you have some napalm.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  CourageousLion

Doesn’t every red blooded American lad learn to make it before he is in his teens?

Jager
Jager
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

Manufacturers and companies like SB tactical are to blame. They presented a product as legal when in fact it never was. SB doesn’t have letters for 3/4th of the braces they sell. What does that tell you?

In an ideal world every mfg. who put out and sold a brace would be charged criminally for the illegal transfer of an SBR.
CEOs of companies like Ruger would be facing life sentences for the thousands of braced firearms sold.

It would put a much needed chill on the gun community.

Last edited 2 days ago by Jager
Intrepidus
Intrepidus
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

Aww what a cute little troll. And do you have a little gem in your tummy too?

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

I found your selfie…

goomba.png
CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Jager

What would put a chill on the “law enforcement” community is when morons like you never make it home and no one knows what pig pen you ended up in.

Roland T. Gunner
Roland T. Gunner
1 day ago
Reply to  Jager

Oh, shut up.

ALL GUN LAWS ARE INFRINGEMENTS
ALL GUN LAWS ARE INFRINGEMENTS
3 days ago

“All laws/wishes/orders etc. which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” (Marbury vs.Madison, 1803.) The Gov has no authority..we the people are in charge not gov.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 days ago

And we need to make sure they know it and that we turn it around so it will always be that way. Right now, I have my doubts. But that could change but only if we are persistent and don’t give in or give up or swallow their lies and cool aid. Long live the republic.

Last edited 3 days ago by musicman44mag
Neanderthal75
Neanderthal75
2 days ago

The prisons and jails across this country have plenty of inmates who believe that throws you just wrote.

They will remain behind Bars despite their constitutionally correct arguments, dressed in their wonderful Orange attire, and when they get out they will be felons for the rest of their lives, despite having followed the Constitution.

Governments and bureaucracies do not care about right or wrong: they care about power and control.

Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

That may be true, but there are insufficient cells, much less police and cuffs to arrest every citizen that these rule changes will arbitrarily turn into felons.

And after the first felony, the rest are free. There will be no incentive to follow any laws once the government arbitrarily designates citizens as felons.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Neanderthal75

except when people realize: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS9sxqsozjg

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
3 days ago

We seem to have forgotten the fourth choice. That is the Fu choice. We already have them and the were legal when we bought them and to own them and you are changing the law to make me a felon, again!. Sorry, it is illegal to do that and I don’t need to prove to you when I bought my pistol upper and I don’t have to register or have a serial number printed on my 80# lower with a number provided by you. If I were to have a number all of them would start with Freedom 2nd amendment… Read more »

Arizona
Arizona
3 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Just serial them with “FU ATF”

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
2 days ago
Reply to  Arizona

LoL, you are bad. Made my day already. Thanks.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

I live to serve. 😉 Happy to help.

ROCK6
ROCK6
3 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

Agreed, but we also need to continue the “peaceful” non-compliance pressure and support our pro-2A foundations to put legal pressure on the BATFE and this administration. I think now, more than ever, this should be a larger review of the 1934 NFA bill that was passed on false premise and deserves strict scrutiny.

musicman44mag
musicman44mag
2 days ago
Reply to  ROCK6

Absolutely.

Arizona
Arizona
2 days ago
Reply to  ROCK6

Absolutely, and it is required as the ATF and DOJ introduced the NFA into the conversation by claiming these firearms would be designated NFA items. Since millions are owned, they are in common use, lawfully used for years, and thus protected under the second and not subject to additional restrictions of “dangerous and unusual weapons”. SBR’s must be removed from the NFA registry, and the NFA must be designated unconstitutional as an end run around the 2nd using taxing authority.

Boris Badenov
Boris Badenov
2 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

I’d suggest 02A0621, but it’s already taken.

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  Boris Badenov

Mine is SNBI0001

CourageousLion
CourageousLion
2 days ago
Reply to  musicman44mag

OMG! You, you, you terrible person you! Join the club. I do not have them all in one place either. And if one place is raided the other place will be visited to wreak havoc on those who raided the first place. FU ATF. And tell Michael Springer FU Springer.