WASHINGTON D.C. –-(Ammoland.com)- On Monday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) released its proposed rule on pistol braces.
It starts by saying that any brace that the manufacturer intends to be fired from the shoulder will be considered a short-barreled rifle (SBR) and subjected to the National Firearms Act (NFA). The document further creates a points system that would allow the ATF to make most pistol braces SBR.
The maximum length of a pistol would be 26 inches. That would make any AR15 style pistol with a barrel over seven inches an SBR regardless of any other determination features. The measurements of a seven-inch AR pistol from the rear of the buffer tube to the front of the gun are 25 inches.
The document reads:
“Given the public interest surrounding these issues, ATF is proposing to amend the definition of ‘rifle’ in 27 CFR 478.11 and 479.11, respectively, by adding a sentence at the end of each definition. The new sentence would clarify that the term ‘rifle’ includes any weapon with a rifled barrel and equipped with an attached ‘stabilizing brace’ that has objective design features and characteristics that indicate that the firearm is designed to be fired from the shoulder, as indicated on ATF Worksheet 4999.”
- 1 point: Minor Indicator (the weapon could be fired from the shoulder)
- 2 points: Moderate Indicator (the weapon may be designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder)
- 3 points: Strong Indicator (the weapon is likely designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder)
- 4 points: Decisive Indicator (the weapon is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder
The ATF would consider any gun with a score of four or more points an SBR. Firearms over 13 ½ inches would automatically be an SBR. If a pistol has a standard buffer tube, then the firearm would be assigned two points. The ATF would consider any gun that is over 120 ounces unloaded an SBR.
More confusingly, if a firearm has flip-up sights, then the ATF would give that gun one point towards becoming an SBR. The ATF would assign a gun with a red dot two points. The ATF doesn’t see why a shooter would use a red dot pistol on a pistol.
The ATF would assign any gun with a hand stop two points. That would put any firearm with a hand stop halfway to becoming an SBR. The ATF would consider any gun with a secondary grip as an SBR.
The ATF encourages all companies to resubmit their sample firearms to the ATF’s Tech Branch to be reexamined. It would cost the companies thousands of dollars for almost no chance of getting another determination letter stating that they can sell their gun as a pistol.
Even if a manufacturer’s product scores under four points, the ATF could determine that the company is trying to circumvent the NFA. The ATF could choose to charge the company with a crime. This power could discourage companies from selling braced pistols even if the ATF rules it is a pistol.
The ATF firearms like the Mossberg Shockwave and the TAC-14 will be considered Short-Barreled Shotguns (SBS). There is no way to get any “shotgun-based” guns that could make it through the new regulations.
The ATF gives gun owners several choices.
The first choice is turning the guns into the ATF. The ATF says this choice would be at “no-cost” to gun owners. This move is gun confiscation. The second choice would be to install a barrel that more than 16 inches long. The third choice is to pay a $200 tax stamp and register it as an SBR. The final option would be to modify the brace and not sell it to anyone in the future.
The document gives some alternatives. These alternatives include making the rules just guidance. That chance would mean that they would not have the force of law. Other alternatives include grandfathering all firearms with braces or forgiveness of the tax stamp fee.
The comment period will open soon for pistol braces and the comment period on unfinished frame and receivers at still open.
Read the proposed rule here: https://www.atf.gov/file/154871/download
About John Crump
John is a NRA instructor and a constitutional activist. John has written about firearms, interviewed people of all walks of life, and on the Constitution. John lives in Northern Virginia with his wife and sons and can be followed on Twitter at @crumpyss, or at www.crumpy.com.
Everything in the proposal is arbitrary and subjective, except for weight and length. They claim certain weights cannot have braces attached, as if they knew how strong or weak everyone is. They claim a pistol must be fired with one hand, yet their own website demonstrates they force their agents to fire Glocks with two hands. They can’t follow their own rules, yet want to tell us how we can hold our weapons?
They can roll these 75 pages up into a fat tube and shove it up their …..
We’re just going to skip these rules in Texas. Our Governor will have to step up.
Your Governor cannot step up, he can’t walk he’s in a wheelchair!
You cannot throw verbiage out like that and not expect some of us to be tempted beyond our self-discipline to not step up and write such things.
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
For every Sheriff that you put up some quote from supporting the Constitution and the second amendment, I can find a sheriff who is anti-2A.
the number of Big City chiefs of police who are anti-2a are plethora and they are not bashful about getting in front of a group of microphones and fawning propagandists in the DSM to report their Contra constitutional words.
Get ready for Tet ’68 all over again!
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
I was just at the Red Pill Expo in Rapid City South Dakota where Sheriff Richard Mack talked about the power a sheriff has. He has an organization called the Constitutional Sheriff and Peace Officers Association that puts on training seminars. I suggest that ever person send their sheriff cost free to one. My county Sheriff was sent my myself and another patriot and when he came back he said that he learned more in two days about the Constitution than he had in his whole life. https://cspoa.org/
…..ass?
Take an absurd, arbitrary, capricious (unconstitutional) regulation and make it a vague as possible so anyone may be arrested for violating it. Spend your family’s entire fortune defending yourself in court. Bureau rats and legislators in your version of a free country collect a paycheck proposing this nonsense.
Glorified welfare recipients that can murder your wife and son because you cut a shotgun barrel off.
“All laws/wishes/orders etc. which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” (Marbury vs.Madison, 1803.) The Gov has no authority..we the people are in charge not gov.
The prisons and jails across this country have plenty of inmates who believe that throws you just wrote.
They will remain behind Bars despite their constitutionally correct arguments, dressed in their wonderful Orange attire, and when they get out they will be felons for the rest of their lives, despite having followed the Constitution.
Governments and bureaucracies do not care about right or wrong: they care about power and control.
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
That may be true, but there are insufficient cells, much less police and cuffs to arrest every citizen that these rule changes will arbitrarily turn into felons.
And after the first felony, the rest are free. There will be no incentive to follow any laws once the government arbitrarily designates citizens as felons.
except when people realize: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS9sxqsozjg
These brace manufacturers submitted their designs to the ATF and got go-ahead letters before proceeding. Did these ATF letters say, “OK, for now”? If so, then everyone went ahead knowing full well that the rug might be yanked out from under them at any time. If, however, these letters were a straight “go” for manufacture/sale/possession then it would seem that those already sold would have to be grandfathered in as it’s the ATF that’s changing paddles in midstream. Otherwise it’s the possessor who’s left holding the bag in this nightmare. To claim that an arbitrary rule change automatically un-does everything… Read more »
You seem to have forgotten what the BATFE did with their revised bumpstock regulations.
The problem is, they don’t give a damn, and don’t care about legal or constitutional restrictions either. They believe they have the ultimate power to do whatever they want and change their minds at their leisure. Unless the citizenry stands up and holds them accountable, along with the rest of the incompetent and corrupt employees of We the People, more of this will happen.
I figured they would change the rules after many were sold. How generous that you can turn in your weapon at no charge.
They seem to be willing yo grandfather them, as long as you register them as an SBR. I dont want sny more of my guns registered, tax stamped, and regulated.
NOTE: The “alternatives” are NOT alternatives, the ATF rejects each of them as unacceptable on pages 54-55 of the proposed ruling. Besides, grand-fathering and tax-stamp forgiveness is nothing more than a sell-out for future generations. We must draw a line in the sand and make our voices heard when the comment period opens up!
The only acceptable alternative is filing a Form 1 and paying your taxes like you should have been doing all along.
Forget ye were our countryman!
Butters and Fudds are cancer.
Or accepting that one has become an outlaw. Of course anyone taking that path must understand that saving their own life may require takingbthose of ATF agents.
While I categorically reject unnecessary violence, defense against those “following orders” here is no less a moral imperative than killing nazi death camp guards would have been. They too were “just following orders”. Only difference is that Jews lacked tools, skills and mindset. Given their example of what happens to those who comply, we won’t.
I like to tjink of Jews in the context of Mila 18.
Sad so many anti-gun “Jews” in the USA learned nothing from Mila 18. Racist bigot Dems denied asylum to European Jews who tried to flee the N a z 1 s, so our “Jews” mindlessly back the open immigration that welcomes “Religion of Peace” members who want to exterminate them & Israel – so we now have a growing “Jihad Squad” in congress and the D&C openly panders to Jew-haters. JPFO’s Aaron Zelman called commie-libs Bagel Jews, but even he was a LOLibertarian on immigration. JPFO is now owned by Alan Gottlieb – who allows no discussion of over-immigration as… Read more »
Phuk ewe! I already have all the tax stamps I need.
Crouch & Lick, Jager!
Reading from this, a revolver or semi auto pistol will start the process with 2-3 points already against it. If you have sights and a red dot you have 3 points so all that would be needed would be another stupid and ambiguous definition and boom. Everything would need a tax stamp, be turned in or of course the most likely option be illegal and the population tells the BATF to pound sand.
Not yet. The closest it comes to handguns are the devices like the RONI conversions.
By the worksheet, a revolver or pistol that is lighter than 64 oz and shorter than 12″ overall would be considered an SBR anytime a brace is attached to it.
I have a feeling the estimated ~40 million pistol braces are not going to comply. Tough break, ATF. Ya dug yourselves a hole trying to bend the laws governing firearms with your secret, in-house decision-making bullshit.
I doubt there are 40 million AR pistols. I would think it is under 5 million. There are about 20 million AR rifles.
Note, this is not the same Don, posting on this thread.
The rule change proposals are not secret. It is right here for you to review. They are defining rules, not law making.
The court will likely look upon this set of definitions favorably.
Not if the coyrt continues to narrow the scope of Chevron Deferrence.
Your so-called rule changes have the de facto power of law: they can take money out of your bank account, arrest you, charge you, try you, and then throw your ass in prison!
You can parse the words all you want in a mealy mouth way to your heart’s content, but when they have the power to throw you in prison and take your money it is the same as law, not constitutionally made law but the power of law nonetheless!
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
The law is the NFA ’34. These are definitions.
They are defining rules they just added a few days ago. When I was a wee lad, we called that “cheating”.
I don’t think there is a .308 that is under the 120 ounce limit.
Which of the two Dons?
Wilson ar10 Ultralight ranger weighs in at 7&1/2 lbs with a 16” barrel. So I would bet there are more than a few pistols with a 10 inch barrel easily make weigh in.
The change in “readily” “receiver” and “firearms” makes every semiauto qualify as a readily converted machine gun, ie, a machine gun. The change in “rifle” and arbitrary point system that triple penalizes adjustability and admittedly isn’t even determinative turns 98% of braced pistols into SBR’s, which are also machine guns. The change on ghost guns makes alcoa and home depot register as SOT FFL’s and every block of aluminum is a receiver. The set up is in process to disarm everyone by making everyone a felon and every firearm restricted.
The .308 weighs more than 120 ounces. That alone makes it illegal.
No, an un-rifled pistol is an AOW – smooth bore handgun.
See points system – tough to make smooth bore aow. You may think it’s a pistol, but they will classify it as SBS.
Probably, they have become a political gestapo that takes rights and freedoms from legal gun owners. Did it under Trump and doing under Creepy sleepy uncle joe
Owning any gun, or any other object should not be illegal. Misuse of that object in a criminal fashion is what should only be illegal. We have laws that protect persons and property from illegal behavior. What anyone owns is nobody’s business, and certainly not the governments. Governments ban guns because they plan on doing something the citizens would shoot them for,
Exactly. All possession laws are unconstitutional and assume facts not in evidence: that the possessed item will be used to harm others in some criminal act. They are also completely useless. If a person is determined to commit murder, which is against the law, then additional laws barring murder with a specific tool, or the ownership or possession of said tool will have no bearing whatsoever. The only laws that should ever exist and gain support of the People are laws against actions, and specifically those actions which cause harm to others.
ABSOLUTELY! NO VICTIM, NO CRIME. No CRIME, not GUILTY your “honor”. CRIMES have a victim.
So, in other words they want to call a spade a spade. I really don’t have a problem with that. I also don’t have a problem for legal owners of said firearms telling the BATFE to “FUCK OFF!” My only AR15 style firearm is an rifle with a 20″ bbl and doesn’t have a forward assist. And it was given to me. These last couple of weeks I have worked to double the amount of ammo I have for that gun to around 3000 rounds. The BATFE can fuck right off!
The purpose is to expand what is defined as criminal possession and increase the number of citizens who can be arrested. They are going to make millions of law abiding Americans into felons, overnight, merely for possessing the firearms which they legally purchased. It is vindictive and it serves no purpose other than to criminalize Americans who have caused no harm to themselves or others.
It wont stop violence or crime or disarm a single person, but it will start a cvil war.
Just about every household has gasoline, glass containers and cloth that can be torn into strips. Therefore they have de facto possession of Molotov cocktails. Which are illegal just about everywhere I believe. LOL!
Don’t forget the styrofoam cups
I see we have a “jelly” fan.
Add some packing styrofoam to the mix and you have some napalm.
Doesn’t every red blooded American lad learn to make it before he is in his teens?
Manufacturers and companies like SB tactical are to blame. They presented a product as legal when in fact it never was. SB doesn’t have letters for 3/4th of the braces they sell. What does that tell you?
In an ideal world every mfg. who put out and sold a brace would be charged criminally for the illegal transfer of an SBR.
CEOs of companies like Ruger would be facing life sentences for the thousands of braced firearms sold.
It would put a much needed chill on the gun community.
Aww what a cute little troll. And do you have a little gem in your tummy too?
I found your selfie…
What would put a chill on the “law enforcement” community is when morons like you never make it home and no one knows what pig pen you ended up in.
Oh, shut up.
We need make more comments in the ATF comment section as it pertains to re-regulating the definition of firearm receivers – there aren’t enough comments, & we need to let our voices be heard, & the same will need to be done when the comment section of the ATF comment section opens up for new definition on legalities of pistol braces – make Your voices be heard! these ATF scum bags are just that – scumbags, it’s all about control & money! We need to abolish the ATF & someone please get rid of David Chipman – Send him to… Read more »
No, send him to a quiet room with no windows and padded walls because he is the EPITOME of a mentally disturbed psychopathic control freak anti rights piece of human excrement that I would love to meet in person on an elevator for 25 seconds. YES YOU DAVID SHIT MAN. Your face looks like my SUV backed into it. What a TURD you are. (Just in case he gets to read this)
Comments on the AFT (sic; President Xiden) are not enough. Make your Senator and representative’s lives a daily chore of sorting through your phone calls, emails and in-office visits.
That items you invest in one day become ‘illegal’ the next is Not acceptable, nor is that a minor bureau subsidiary of the IRS can make arbitrary and perpetually shifting rulings with the force of law (thank you courts /s)
Your representatives and senators don’t have much leverage here. This is not a bill, it is a definition of terms.
we stopped the ban on 855 ammo by contacting elected reps and senators. we can do this again.
I don’t think that will work this time. Republicans are in the minority, and a few will support anti-gun moves. This doesn’t have to go before congress.
Be sure to demand what Studies were performed and examined to determine each of their assertions. They make sweeping statements, such as “pistols with braces attached are more concealable than those without.” Based on what? Said who? It is a flat out lie, as adding a brace adds bulk, weight and space, all of which make a firearm less concealable. What studies said that a pistol weighing more than 7.5 pounds is inappropriate for a brace and cannot be accurately fired? How many studies were conducted? By who? How many and what firearms and braces were studied? What studies determined… Read more »
We need to not only win this battle, but turn this whole damned war around snd prosecute it to a successful conclusion.
DEFUND THE ATF !
I have 12 or 14 firearms assembled to take advantage of the legal benefits of pistol braces, and I fo not want them registered with tax stamps. Even a free tax stamp encumbers the firearm, and decreases its value via diminished resalability. We have to light a fire under our representatives and make this thing not happen.
Good luck with that, they won’t even listen to a common sense concept like balancing the budget!
The scum like power and control and they are addicted to the privilege their offices provide them: they don’t believe in doing what is best for the people who elect them, they just like making a good show of talking about doing what is best for the people who elect them.
So don’t hold your breath on Congress doing anything moral, ethical, much less to say constitutional.
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
Reselling firearms without a license is illegal. Resale value should not be a concern to you at all as an unlicensed individual. Only criminals and terrorists do not want to register their guns under the NFA. Which are you?
Do you work hard at being an imbecile or does it just naturally flow from you? I pity those whom you deal with in everyday life.
Your family must think you are a hoot at the dinner table
Oops. Sorry, obviously meant for Jacker.
Now you are just spouting off about a subject you know nothing about. Reselling firearms without a license is absolutely legal, unless you do it on a regular basis for profit. Selling a firearm you have owned for years does not qualify as being in the business. Regular folks don’t want to register their fire arms because registration always leads to confiscation.
Only bedwetters and dandies want to register their guns under the NFA. Which are you?
Jager is sitting in his mom’s basement clutching his pearls.
No “law” should exist for a crime unless there is a victim involved. If you are willing to cage or kill me for keeping the fruits of my labor, YOU are the criminal, not me. If you are willing to cage or kill me enforcing a law telling me that I cannot smoke, eat or drink what I want, YOU are the criminal not me. If you are willing to cage me or kill me while enforcing a law that says that I can’t own a certain type of gun or because I decide to put a AR pistol to my shoulder,… Read more »
No, reselling your personal firearms without an FFL is not illegal in most of the country (74% actually).
Only in 13 states are private sales of firearms even required to have a background test.
Not worry about the value of his firearms?
Why on earth wouldn’t he?
They’re an investment.
As to your comment and questio9n regarding the NFA, you’re trying to force an answer to a fallacy of bifurcation.
Those are NOT the only choices in this situation.
That is absolutely a stupid comment. We can resell any gun we own. Don’t resell drugs, as that is a crime. We don’t need a license to sell guns to friends and family.
Only tyrants advocate for arms control.
What kind of low 2 digit IQ dumb shit are you?
Reselling personally owned firearms is perfectly legal, and should be, you jackass.
Actually, I have been considered both, within some jurisdictions.
Agreed, but we also need to continue the “peaceful” non-compliance pressure and support our pro-2A foundations to put legal pressure on the BATFE and this administration. I think now, more than ever, this should be a larger review of the 1934 NFA bill that was passed on false premise and deserves strict scrutiny.
Absolutely, and it is required as the ATF and DOJ introduced the NFA into the conversation by claiming these firearms would be designated NFA items. Since millions are owned, they are in common use, lawfully used for years, and thus protected under the second and not subject to additional restrictions of “dangerous and unusual weapons”. SBR’s must be removed from the NFA registry, and the NFA must be designated unconstitutional as an end run around the 2nd using taxing authority.
“The ATF gives gun owners several choices.
Gun owners will give ATF a singIe choice.
The ATF approved the arm brace and if I am not mistaken published a letter stating if brace could be fired from the shoulder. I am leaning towards you (the ATF) allowed the purchase and use of the brace you can’t take it back. Sorry for your luck.
The atf gives three options, all three cost a gun owner money. The gun owners relied on a written statement when they purchased there braces or guns that came with braces already attached.
Being forced to either loses the use of legally approved as per the atf ruling is a taking or tax.
Atf should be forced to be held to the fact that they made a ruling and people bought a legally approved produce because of their ruling.
I can’t imagine of one braced pistol that wouldn’t pass their point system. We should fight for the right of everyone going forward. But a the very least for people who have owned these for years, built them with the guidance/ruling that the ATF themselves set forth the last 10 years on braces should not have to register them, basically being grandfathered in. Otherwise, it makes millions of law abiding citizens felons overnight. And a good percentage of them, unknowingly. But sure that won’t happen. The goal here is to have people turn them in, or register(even if fee is… Read more »
Actually, Heller says weapons like this can and should be regulated. It’s even in the ATF document. Quit making excuses for skirting the law while calling yourself a “law abiding” gun owner, man up, and pay your $200 tax if you want a short barreled rifle like the rest of us who play the NFA game have been doing for decades.
We are *manned up* that’s why we’re a 2A community that doesn’t like our constitutional rights being used as toilet paper, & we don’t like Tyrants – didn’t like it in the 1700s & don’t care for it now, how about You be an American man up
“Go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
Yes, “man up” and take it in the anal orifice just like you have been doing for decades. Try not to get too much dirt off those boots on your TONGUE.
Whatever, Fudd.
Stuff a pie in it, butt-monkey; I have a dozen tax stamps, including a full auto Thompson, and I dont want any more tax stamps. NO MORE TAX STAMPS!
Maybe people need to learn how to say NOT GUILTY on juries. Yes, THEY said they were OK for at least 10 years. And that is the way it is…OK.
The primary purpose of this rule change is to create criminal activity and possession where none previously existed, to enable the government to declare 4 million + law abiding citizens are now criminals. The purpose is to give the government an excuse to arrest and prosecute said citizens, and use that as leverage to disarm the public. And to set a precedent for future retroactive changes that will make more firearms verboten. The rule change on receivers, readily, and firearms already will make every single semiauto a de facto machine gun, as they change “readily” to mean “an 8 hour… Read more »
United States Constitution, Section 22, Art. III. No ex post facto law or bill of attainder shall be enacted.
This is a set of definitions not a law. The guns are illegal under the NFA ’34. ATF just wasn’t on the mark for several years. Now they are. How many of us have been telling these “pistol” owners that this was coming? I have always said these were simply SBRs.
I can’t get too worked up over this set of definitions. If you think these were not simply a workaround to the NFA, you’ve been lying to yourself.
So…”I am even a gun owner, but…” Fudd.
Whats wrong with a workaround to the NFA? I will do anything I can to subvert them, just like any other enemy.
Since when did our Federal Government or its alphabet soup agencies start following the law?
Looks like the ATF has a solution looking for a problem or living back in the 1920’s. Perhaps they should ban trench coats while they are at it. Chicken, here’s your little.
I keep forgetting to ask you to say hi to Natasha for me, so if you would please say hi to Natasha for me!
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
PS the moose and the squirrel say hello.
So how is Rocky and Bullwinkle?
Keeping on keeping on just as usual: kicking butt and taking names in their spectacularly individual fashions!
Just serial them with “FU ATF”
I live to serve. 😉 Happy to help.
ATF cannot amend any law in the Code of Federal Regulations. It’s up to Congress.
Gun Control in regards to Law Abiding Citizens is Anti Freedom and Tyrants will say and/or do anything necessary to deflect from their intent for it’s Implementation. Whether it is through Insidious Means or outright Tyrannical Confiscation. The desire of Liberal Democrats to attain total control over the populace of Our nation has followed a long and convoluted path. With the impending confirmation of David Chipman as the next director pf the ATF. Firearms Rights proponents and Law Abiding Citizens once again find themselves under attack by unelected Bureaucrats who have no requirement to answer to “We the People”. This is not… Read more »
We’ll all be felones in the next few months. I’m not registering a damn thing. We need to fight this at the state level. Texas and the other 20+ that have passed constitional carry need to tell the fed to stick their new rules where the sun doesn’t shine. Come and get it.
Excuse me but I think Mr. Crump needs a new yardstick. I have a 10.5″ barrel AR pistol right here and when you measure from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel, minus the flash hider. it is 25 inches.
Also in New Hampshire last week we passed a new law making us a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary State just waiting for Gov. Sununu is expected to sign it.
Splendid bit of feel-good legislation: it has zero rule of law bite, and no judge in the country would protect it when an deputy AG from the doj is standing before the bench prosecuting you.
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
Yeah, that’s not how the ATF is going to measure your pistol.
Put the brace back on the buffer tube, and include the flash hider forward slash muzzle brake as part of the measurement.
Welcome to the ranks of the NFA!!
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
The muzzle device doesn’t count unless it has been pinned and welded. they might ban the brace like they tried to ban bumpstocks but just going by their own rules.
The NH Sanctuary law would prohibit any NH Law Enforcement Officers from enforcing or helping anyone else enforce any new federal law putting further restrictions on NH citizens 2nd Amendment rights. There’s a lot more to it than that, but that is the purpose of it.
AND any elected SHERIFF could arrest any Federal agent for violating under the color of law any person’s right to life liberty and property that he wants and what are the feds going to do? What if the SHERIFF formed a possee of the citizens of his county, WHICH UNDER LAW HE COULD DO, arm them all with MACHINE GUNS and say to the FEDS GET LOST? Then what?
well here’s what I found on the AFT web site. ATF-LS-FT1 Examinations of Firearms https://www.atf.gov/file/128841/download I. Scope This policy and procedure guideline establishes a standard guideline for examining firearms and documenting relevant information. This protocol is applicable to all ATF Firearm and Toolmark Examiners. … V. Procedures See ATF-LS-FT9 Firearm and Toolmark … Measuring overall length barrel length (if needed): • Definitions • Barrel length – the distance between the end of the barrel and the face of the closed breechblock or bolt for firearms other than for revolvers. On revolvers, barrel length is the overall length of the barrel… Read more »
Great research xtf. Of course the BATFE regards the regulations as whatever they say it is at any moment, but whether they actually get away with it would be another thing. Like the ban on bump stocks that was found to be illegal.
Paragraphs 1 through 4 are so subjective the 9th Circuit would throw them out. And further, today everyone is taught under every standard to use a two hand grip for accuracy.
A three point position is even more accurate, so apparently the AFT wants people to shoot innocent bystanders while defending themselves if their “pistol” happens to end up on their shoulder to make it more accurate. Is it just me or did this whole pile of SHIT that was passed in 1934 make any sense to anyone who can critically think? And of course Jager isn’t included in the list of people who can critically think. Or uphold the OATH he SWORE to uphold.
Crump’s article is full of errors. suggest you read it for yourself…..all 71 pages!
That’s a stretch.
Your shooting from the shoulder remarks are silly. If you don’t know that, you’re in real trouble in the critical thinking arena.
Something the Democrats seem to be good at. For the children. Common sense gun safety. lol
What was a “stretch”? His statement struck me as deep thinking, well thought, and succinctly worded.
OMG! You, you, you terrible person you! Join the club. I do not have them all in one place either. And if one place is raided the other place will be visited to wreak havoc on those who raided the first place. FU ATF. And tell Michael Springer FU Springer.
How many years ago did the ATF pretty much say with letters that arm braces were legal? How many people have purchased them up to this point? Do these psychopathic control freaks know what an Ex Post Facto law is? Well they don’t give a flying rats ass about the SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED part of the 2nd amendment so I suspect that there is one other choice…make them PAY if they want to attack you for the non crime of having a barrel on a whatever it is that is arbitrarily decided by ANYONE. Tyranny is at your door… Read more »
Half the counties and some entire states are gun sanctuaries. Idaho state is a sanctuary state. They never regulated machine guns, SBRs or SBSs. Governor Little signed the sanctuary state law just recently.
We’ve got bad cops here and bad sheriffs and bad Highway patrol just like every other state, because our cops are just as human as any other bunch of cops!
However, since most people in Wyoming are armed the oath breaking cops here always keep that fact in mind.
Cheers from the oil patch in Central Wyoming
have a better choice we the people vote the atf out of existence
We the people do not have that power: Congress has that power, but Congress is full of cowards, liars, thieves, or, as Obi-Wan Kenobi once put it: “You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.” So the bottom line is that you and I know that the ATF will never be put out of existence: the low-life scum of villainy who wanted to be FBI agents but couldn’t pass the tests to become FBI agents, so they decided to become ATF agents instead, will continue their villainy, their murdering, their thuggery, etc.… Read more »
And it just may be some of the guys who were at the Tet offensive that finally say enough is enough.
Reads like your balls were shot off.
Some things are worse than death. Like slavery for one. Like Gulags for one. We’ll just sit back and watch them burn it all down, right? WRONG.
Your statement reminds me of another, “Well, I do declare!” And, by extension, you seem to bear some resemblance to the character who made it.
Vote them out? JFC.
The last time that this was contemplated, the OKC bombing happened
Yeah, and I wonder who was behind that…Oh wait, no I don’t. WONDER that is.
Accessories Accessories Accessories, thats all these clowns keep crying about, Accessories, one day something is good in their eyes and the next here comes the” We have to change the rules and of course here comes the you can pay $200.00 tax stamp to keep what we already paid for, man don’t you just love it?
To make these regulations law, they have to change the GCA,NFA code ?
congress must approved like any other bill…
When are all these infiltrated commies going to be arrested and put to trial? I keep hearing promises, promises.
People kicked the hornet’s nest when the “arm braces” first came out, and I
predicted where we are now clear back then. No one was fooled, a red flag was waved in front of the damned ATF and they responded. It just took
longer than I thought it would.
I’d suggest 02A0621, but it’s already taken.
Mine is SNBI0001
What is the option to “modify the brace and not sell it to anyone in the future”? Great! I will mofify by removing the silly velcro strap, and leave the firearms to my heirs or give them away before I die. Seriously, before I die, I am going to spend an afternoon in the Walmart parking lot, handing free girearms out to total strangers.
So if I remove the brace, still is and SBR because of the points system?
Really need to put the pressure on to drop SBR and suppresser from NFA ’34. After all those were included during Freaky Hoover and Commie Roosevelt.
Why leave anything registered? Machine guns should be dropped off the National Register too. AOWs I dont care much about.
No peacekeeping device used to defend the life, liberty and property of an American need ever be registered.
Hypothesis: Jager is Crumpy trolling his own article for comment wars.
This is ridiculously stupid…..there is noway that law abiding Americans are going to turn in a weapon that is legal now…This is confiscation….or pay $200.00 for registration for confiscation or change a barrel to 16 inches….???? The thing is… people will not comply with the BATEE NOR WILL OUR POLICE…!
Brother you have no idea who will not comply…I think you need a serious lesson that people will not comply to include police officers…Us gun owners are law abiding always…if it comes to confiscation…we the people become outlaws…!
I do believe sir that you are the one who needs to reconsider his position. I’ve spoken to quite a few cops and many say they will not enforce such rules/laws. However, there are a bunch who will in fact enforce such rulings which have the effect and power of law, so yes local LEOS will be right there beside the ATF Tac Teams and FBI with their weapons pointed at law abiding people’s homes over these rule changes! However, before we get to that point the ATF will simply have Merrick Garland the new AG to begin instituting financial… Read more »
How many cops enforce the current treasonous and unlawful gun laws on the books? All of them. You are an idiot. Pull your head out of your ass.
Which is one reason I tell people there are is no such thing as a “good cop”. They enforce all kinds of tyrannical no victim so called crime laws. Hell, two showed up at my house to make sure Entergy could put a smart meter on my home over my objection unless Entergy would prove they would be held liable for any damages the piece of crap might cause.
It is just a new meter. What’s to fear?
Why thank you so much for such a calm, even handed, logical, and respectful response: nice of you to avoid specifics while forcing mindless generalities to the fore! Unless you have become God, you do not know all cops across this country; point of fact you do not know all cops in your county, and point of fact if you live in a large city, you do not know all cops in just your one city! Bottom line is that you’re the one talking out of your posterior my dear fellow! Cops are human beings and as human beings they… Read more »
Stewart Rhodes is a swine.
The cops in CA, CT, NJ, DC, MD, NY and MA gleefully enforce gun laws. Would you trust a NJ cop with anything?
Wow…so what they are going to do is force you into going postal on them and showing up at their offices out of the blue and and and…fill in the blanks. And I’m sure some ASSHOLE TURD FREAK (ATF) may read this and I don’t give a shit. For one thing, I don’t own any pistols that have braces but I do know a few friends that do and I will go and help them if the time came to defend their right to own them. Hey ATF…tell Herb Byerly hi for me and Michael Springer too. I’m hoping both… Read more »
It sounds like the Denver County Police are outlaws that need to be dealt with as any other outlaw. And if that means the use of deadly force, SO BE IT. The tree of liberty needs a little watering here and there of the BLOOD OF TYRANTS as well as patriots. I’m reminded of Gordon Kahl as I write this…
Kahl was a low life thug.
Being retired law enforcement along with my brothers we will not comply with unconstitutional confiscation…!
Different people have different attitudes, and cops are just people with the authority and weight of the badge for which to be responsible. You are retired, so there is also the fact of generational differences: young cops who have been on the job for 10 years or less do not have your mindset, point of fact cops have been on the job for 20 years do not have your mindset. Like I said, I know a bunch of cops, pd’s, so, and hp’s, who will in fact not enforce such laws / rules. However, there are sheriffs who will comply,… Read more »
Except for all those unconstitutional confiscations that you already participated in….
I confiscated a few guns while a cop. All the seizures were lawful. You wouldn’t want guns to be in the hands of those I took them from.
You are retired for a reason. If you cannot enforce the law then you do not belong in law enforcement period! Don’t worry, we will enforce the law and protect our communities from these unusually dangerous weapons.
@Jager your pad will protect your underwear from your unusually dangerous lack of bladder control.
His bladder is fine, its his vagina that leaks.
Tell you what you brain dead moron…if the people turn against you, you won’t be safe from shit. Your job will be your downfall and quick trip to a box. Move where I am and try some tyrannical shit on someone and see what happens…Oh wait, you won’t be able to see what happens.
It’s not the weapons which are dangerous, quisling.
I never quite know why an AR pistol is more dangerous than a 16 inch carbine. You’re less likely to hit with a lower powered pistol.
Come get em, coward.
Many laws are left up to the officers discretion. I didn’t issue lots of tickets when I could have. A lot of the job is educating the public and seeking voluntary compliance with the laws. Voluntary compliance means no ticket or arrest.
“Unusually dangerous weapons” lol.
Now thar we are retired, we wont. But what if we still had to get up every morning, pin on the badge, pull on the boots, and show up at roll call?
These were never legal. Show me an ATF letter on the SBA 3. You can’t. This is just the agency finally giving guidance on what is and isn’t legal. Skirting the NFA was NEVER LEGAL and registration of such items has been held constitutional under Heller.
Grow up and pay your taxes if you want an SBR brace baby.
…said no one who has actually read Heller.
Wrong. SCOTUS ruled in Miller that since they were provided no evidence to the contrary, as there was NO DEFENSE PRESENT, that short barreled shotguns were not especially useful as militia arms or military arms, arms which they stated were protected by the 2nd. The government’s attorneys did not mention that SBS were frequently used in trench warfare, especially suitable to militia and military service, and thus protected. The NFA has never been on trial with a Defense Present! The NFA was admittedly an end run around the 2nd using taxing authority as an excuse to arrest gangsters. Read the… Read more »
Hahaha! You are triggered so easily. And wrong.
@ JohnLloyd…And what is so hard for those brain dead psychopathic control freaks on the supreme court to understand about SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED? All they had to do is read some of the founding fathers many statments about the 2nd amendment and they would have recused themselves from the case. It was to take these weapons from the bootleggers. They were IDIOTS. PERIOD. And if you think otherwise, you are one too.
This just proves my own belief that our Representstive Republic does not work as intended.
Jager your on the wrong message board BABY.
I shall show you the letter to the ATF that somehow you have dismissed.
The 2nd Amendment !! Now go away glow man you reek of it.
Maybe go fish at TTAG message boards your not fooling anyone here.
They might not have been “legal” according to YOUR understanding but that’s because you’re a low IQ TYRANT who follows orders and doesn’t pay shit attention to your oath that says you’ll uphold and defend SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
of what benefit is the tax? What is the return to the citizen for such a fee?
No jail cell.
TAX…another name for SLAVERY.
The NFA was NEVER LEGAL! I dont give a rats ass what the corrupt courts have said. GCA ’68 infringes our rights; and HUGHES was “passed” clearly, blatantly, FRAUDULENTLY, by that corrupt asshole Charlie Rangel.
Hmmmm….I think the actual law says SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED and that anything being called a “law” that violates that is null and void. I don’t think the Founding Fathers intended for the nation to be nothing but lawyers to be able to understand the plain language and understanding of the Constitution.
i have desert eagle that qualifies under these rules and no brace
They will be changing the rules for that pistol to put it under “destructive device”. They will say that the bore of a pistol can’t be over .04999 inches. They can say what they want. They don’t make the law. A BRACED pistol is NOT an SBR. Otherwise they wouldn’t have let them come into existence in the first place.
The first braces, were braces. Then the industry pushed the limits, shoving it in the face of the ATF. It was bound to happen, and it has. There is no reason to be crying, as you all know you have an SBR. I’ve spent $1,600 on stamps just to evade arrest. In the 40 years I’ve had SBRs and SBSs, I have never had a visit by ATF.
That’s nice. You were a good little peasant, and paid the man for the privilege, which is actually a right that requires no fee. You haven’t had a visit yet, because they havent gotten bold enough, yet. But they will visit you and those who naively begged permission and registered firearms… long before they visit anyone else.
Because obviously since he is a good slave he won’t fight them when they come to get his $1600 of registered toys. I don’t have any NFA items because you just can’t find them at gun shows on someones table, damn it.
Manufacture them yourself on a Form 1.
Oh, stifle it Edith.
Craziness!
Let’s face it. The way the points are awarded there really won’t be any AR pistols. Perhaps when the registration scheme arrives you record the OAL to match a real telescoping stock, and do the real SBR.
The F squad admits on page 29 that even if points assessed do not determine the firearm is an SBR, the Atf can and will still determine the firearm is an SBR, for untold reasons. This is a gimmick, masquerading as an objective criteria worksheet.
This worksheet is designed to classify all AR pistols as SBRs. None of the existing guns can pass this test.
incorrect. just remove the brace and/or revert back to gen 1 style round tube.
with a 10.5″ barrel, the original SIG brace just might be legal…. nonadjustable with straps, less than 26″ OAL.
sbt A3s and A4s are hit tho.
That is not what people want. Sure you can restore it to a useless gun. You can’t keep it in a usable form. Let’s face it, it has always been an SBR.
Removing the brace means it is not a braced pistol. So naturally it is an un-braced pistol.
I still need to reread the document a bit more carefully, but looked to me like many AR pistols would still be classified as a SBR even without the brace.
If you have a gear head works mod 1 tailhook on a fixed round buffer tube you are golden. That breezes through their crooked scheme, but you you still have to watch what accessories are on it, best to just have a red dot I think. But again, since the F troop says it isnt even determinative, and each agent could rate a firearm differently, this is just a means to turn pistols into sbr’s and us into criminals. They seem to forget the fact that after the first felony, the rest are free. These dumb gmen shoukd stop and… Read more »
Good, it’s about time the brace babies were forced to man up and pay their taxes like the rest of us in the NFA world have been for decades. You want a controlled item? Pony up the money for it and wait. Otherwise miss me with that “law abiding gun owner” shtick because you certainly are not law abiding if you have to skirt the law to get an SBR. I have never seen a single brace baby using the brace wrapped around their forearm as initially approved by the feds. They all shoulder it. It’s clear this was and… Read more »
Butters and Fudds, like you, are a cancer and disgrace to the 2A.
That is still one of the most stupid, obnoxious statements I have ever read.
I don’t understand why Ammoland would use the picture they did in the headline of this article. The people on the fence about all gun laws are the folks we want to sway to our side and that pic makes the gun look like a rifle. Non gun owners know nothing about guns but they are the majority of the public and we must be careful what we expose them to while trying to educate them.
Had a coworker who bought a shockwave as his first gun. Wanted something for home defense and didn’t want an AR due to fear of future regulations. Did not want to have to keep track of legal changes or have to register for NFA.
I will make an effort to find his contact info and ask him to comment. People like him are at risk of becoming felons without a clue that they are. This is a case where fuds can be our friends.
The ATF may pressure dealers to send a warning letter to each customer that bought a newly prohibited weapon.
This administration and the BATFE are muddying the water. That picture is exactly what braces were designed for regardless of how end-users use them. I no longer believe there are fence-sitters regarding the 2A. Either you are for it or you are against it, you are either for liberty or for oppression; whether you are a gun owner or not. We need to stop sugar-coating the 2A and it’s true purpose, and stop trying to appeal to any American who doesn’t know or understand the Constitution; that’s a waste of time and effort. I’m all for educating those wanting to… Read more »
And we need to get the governors of our states to reinstate the first 13 words of the Second amendment. You know the part that has the word NECESSARY in it which is the only place in the whole Constitution it is in!
Not only do non gun owners know nothing about guns but far too many in the media that write about them know nothing, heck they can’t even read what they write and understand what you are saying when you point out their factual errors. Case in point the Mercury News in San Jose CA, …Alaska & Oklahoma do not require ANY background checks on the sale of firearms. I pointed out that new firearm sales DO require a NICS per the Feds. The guy didn’t get it.
Well I mean it kinda is a rifle. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck.. must be a duck.
Which is why all of this is happening to begin with. Violation of the spirit of the law if not the letter is still a crime.
Hm. If it walks like a redcoat, blusters like a redcoat, looks like a redcoat…
Try using the spirit of the law as a defense in court.
So violating the spirit of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED must be a crime, right Mr. Rocket Scientist??
We NEED THE MILITIAS back to take care of this kind of CRAP. Do you suppose that milita members could be armed with machine guns, short barrel rifles and shot guns and even hand grenades? Well duh, huh. That’s why THEY did away with them in 1903. BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY AFRAID OF HAVING THEIR ASSES handed to them. Today they are hiding behind razor wire and fences and people with machine guns.
The thing is Jager, the Gov has defined what is a handgun and what is a rifle. We the People have devised our fire arms to comply with the laws by their definitions. They are the ones who keeps trying to change the rules after the fact.
Violating the spirit of a law is not a crime, violating the letter of a law is a crime. Thas why laws are written down, so we can refer back to the details. Jerk.
Here let me help. This should fix it for you.